Measle Plague

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Lets see a show of hands from those who wish they could be un-vaccinated for polio?

Speaking of which, here's one to watch...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/25/health...ystery-disease

'About 20' cases of polio-like illness found in California

Samples from two of those children tested positive for enterovirus 68, a rare virus that has been linked to severe respiratory illness in the past. Samples from the other three children were not collected or tested soon enough to yield conclusive results, said Dr. Emmanuelle Waubant, a neurologist at the University of California, San Francisco.

Doesn't appear that the polio vaccine is protecting against this...

[Redfrog]

Silver, it's likely the other people who don't get vaccinated that are then infected by those who are also not vaccinated. Of course nothing is 100% but do you think there is less smallpox, polio, diptheria today than before vaccinations against these things?

I wonder how many anti vacs scream about second hand smoke?
I know someone who was exposed to second hand smoke and they didn't get lung cancer.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Silver, it's likely the other people who don't get vaccinated that are then infected by those who are also not vaccinated. Of course nothing is 100% but do you think there is less smallpox, polio, diptheria today than before vaccinations against these things?

I wonder how many anti vacs scream about second hand smoke?
I know someone who was exposed to second hand smoke and they didn't get lung cancer.

I was vaccinated but do not put up with second hand smoke. What's your point?

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Of course nothing is 100%

But we are being sold that 2 doses of MMR will make 99% of children immune to measles, mumps and Rubella? Yet 21% of proven fully vaccinated people got the measles in Quebec? 75% of the 4 cases in Calgary were supposedly immune from this vaccination - being called an anomoly.

Doesn't that phase you or make you question the validity of the vaccine in any way shape or form? I'm not against vaccines, but by jaysus, I have to question it.

Babies under 1 are not supposed to be vaccinated - they are supposed to rely on their mothers passive immunity after birth and through breastfeeding. Do you not find it just a little disturbing that an immunized mother can't give that to her baby in the way a mother that had the virus can?

[raab]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Are people not getting this? How can it spread to vaccinated people? 4 cases of measles in Calgary, 3 were vaccinated - how is that supposed to be possible?

The MMR vaccine is being sold on making you immune - 99.7% of people vaccinated are supposed to be immune. Doesn't matter if an unvaccinated person has measles or mumps - if you have your 2 doses, you're supposed to be immune to it, there's no spreading it around. The vaccine isn't working as advertised.

I have only posted a few links, there are many more.

If you understood how vaccines work then you wouldn't be asking this question. They develop vaccines/drugs for the majority of people. In some cases some people may need a booster shot of a vaccine for it to become totally effective, but if everyone is immunized the chances of someone contracting the disease is low. If your interested in some light reading look into immunology and vaccines. Once you understand how your body works and how vaccines work on your body I think a lot of your questions will be answered.

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

I was vaccinated but do not put up with second hand smoke. What's your point?

Red frig is using a everyday situation to illustrate the issue of those who vac and those who don't, I think it's a very good example.
Nothing works 100%, so even with vac you can get a little sick. The problem is some are so terrified to listen to good advice and are oppositional defiant meaning don't tell them what to do even if it's good for them. Look for every study every hack out there to justify it.
Fact : there are less cases of many diseases today because of vaccines,

[raab]

Originally Posted by brownbomber

Red frig is using a everyday situation to illustrate the issue of those who vac and those who don't, I think it's a very good example.
Nothing works 100%, so even with vac you can get a little sick. The problem is some are so terrified to listen to good advice and are oppositional defiant meaning don't tell them what to do even if it's good for them. Look for every study every hack out there to justify it.
Fact : there are less cases of many diseases today because of vaccines,

What I don't like is all the anti's that I've run into have no clue how vaccines actually work. Once you understand how they work, you can understand why they shouldn't be dangerous for you or your kids in most cases.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by raab

If you understood how vaccines work then you wouldn't be asking this question. They develop vaccines/drugs for the majority of people. In some cases some people may need a booster shot of a vaccine for it to become totally effective, but if everyone is immunized the chances of someone contracting the disease is low. If your interested in some light reading look into immunology and vaccines. Once you understand how your body works and how vaccines work on your body I think a lot of your questions will be answered.

Do we have a virologist on AO? Vaccinologist maybe? Do fill us in...

Slice it and dice it any way you want, people look at this as a miracle cure - without question. Poeple believe by having their kid injected with these vaccines that they will be completely and utterly immune to these diseases.

In reality, not so. Am I correct?

MMR used to be one dose they hey, your kid is immune. Nope, sorry, need 2 doses... Interesting isn't it - really sounds like they know exactly what they are doing.

[raab]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Do we have a virologist on AO? Vaccinologist maybe? Do fill us in...

Slice it and dice it any way you want, people look at this as a miracle cure - without question. Poeple believe by having their kid injected with these vaccines that they will be completely and utterly immune to these diseases.

In reality, not so. Am I correct?

MMR used to be one dose they hey, your kid is immune. Nope, sorry, need 2 doses... Interesting isn't it - really sounds like they know exactly what they are doing.

It's basic bio. As I said look up immunology and you'll see why not everyone is protected fully. But if everyone gets the shot those who aren't fully protected should not contract the disease bad enough to have an outbreak.

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Do we have a virologist on AO? Vaccinologist maybe? Do fill us in...

Slice it and dice it any way you want, people look at this as a miracle cure - without question. Poeple believe by having their kid injected with these vaccines that they will be completely and utterly immune to these diseases.

In reality, not so. Am I correct?

MMR used to be one dose they hey, your kid is immune. Nope, sorry, need 2 doses... Interesting isn't it - really sounds like they know exactly what they are doing.

I think you're really fishing. Most of us are pragmatic and no it's not the beat all to end all. So no you are not correct.
We aren't a virologist or a medical research scientist anymore than you are but it's quite plain to me that my kids are a lot less likely to die in childhood than say my grandfather who was born in the 20's.
Yes the way procedures are done does change, it's proof that they know what they are doing. Things don't stay the same and viruses, and diseases do not either. You have to adapt to them as they adapt to us. Not very interesting just common sense.
The boogeyman man isn't in scrubs

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by raab

It's basic bio. As I said look up immunology and you'll see why not everyone is protected fully. But if everyone gets the shot those who aren't fully protected should not contract the disease bad enough to have an outbreak.

I fully understand that ideal, in reality - most don't. Parent's are utterly shocked when their vaccinated child gets measles or some other disease - because it's basically being sold as the cure. Take this and you won't get the disease.

Originally Posted by brownbomber

I think you're really fishing. Most of us are pragmatic and no it's not the beat all to end all.

And i'm glad that you understand that, most of the parents I know think their kids are bulletproof cause they had some shots. That's not the way it is.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by tri777

Applause & an "Amen!!
Nobody is willing to die anymore at the expense of an never ending increase with populations problems..let's all just get vacinnes,live forever while saying to mother Earth "feed&comfort me"

We should do something! You go first.

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

I fully understand that ideal, in reality - most don't. Parent's are utterly shocked when their vaccinated child gets measles or some other disease - because it's basically being sold as the cure. Take this and you won't get the disease.



And i'm glad that you understand that, most of the parents I know think their kids are bulletproof cause they had some shots. That's not the way it is.

Do you have kids? If so I hope they never get sick and life allows you to continue on this path of ignorance! I really do. If you don't have kids then You really don't have any skin in the game and your argument is mute.

My son gets vaccinated, not because it will work 100% of the time but because it's better than nothing. We know vaccines help, that's a plain fact no argument needed. It's a hedge really, and why not? Sure actually catching the disease might make him stronger, but it might cause a whole other pile of problems!

And where does all the anti vaccination information come from? Websites, dumb b rated Hollywood stars, ex doctors and the such. Where does the vaccination information come from? Published doctors who specialize in their fields of study, government websites and the occasional big pharma ad. I know what I information ill use. And at least I tried!

[silverdoctor]

As I said already in this thread...

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

I'm not against vaccines, but by jaysus, I have to question it.

And I stand by it.

Originally Posted by ESOXangler

but because it's better than nothing.

Sure actually catching the disease might make him stronger, but it might cause a whole other pile of problems!

Powerful words, well put.

[Saltmania]

Originally Posted by tri777

If it's my time,well,then,
let's get a move on & let Earth proceed & resume as it's naturallysupposed to and
not try to have humans living eternity on this crowded orbiting mass of dirt!

NO! Sad= The current over population at present you rather selfishly & conviently overlook is..

Of course, the solution is to go back to the days of Hobbes where "life of man [was], solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short". This is the best solution for solving population problems (thanks for the top lol)

I suppose you don't brush your teeth either. After all, modern dental hygiene makes us humans live unnaturally long lives...

[MAC]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

I fully understand that ideal, in reality - most don't. Parent's are utterly shocked when their vaccinated child gets measles or some other disease - because it's basically being sold as the cure. Take this and you won't get the disease.



And i'm glad that you understand that, most of the parents I know think their kids are bulletproof cause they had some shots. That's not the way it is.

I am not understanding what you are driving at. I agree with you to an extent that some may think immune is 100% but I don't believe its as high as you say. I am very interested in what you are trying to say.

Vaccinate while being informed or don't vaccinate its a waste of time?

You have quit smoking and good on you for that, but why bother if you are not guaranteed 100% to not get cancer.

Doing something while being informed with a chance of failure is still better than doing nothing at all.

"Although VE for mumps vaccination is not optimal for preventing clinical disease, our results support previous findings that vaccination limits the severity of disease. Because complications are the primary mumps-associated public health problem, these findings support the current vaccination recommendations. "
This quote is from the article you linked regarding the Mumps.

There is a positive gain in society with vaccination, even when you factor some of the negatives that are without question.
It is all a gamble while hoping for the best. I agree with you about questioning
what is going on I believe everyone should inform themselves about every aspect of their healthcare.
I will support your informed decision pro or anti. To many jump on the bandwagon on both sides of the argument without finding out for themselves.

MAC

[Saltmania]

I've refrained from commenting on these vaccine threads for a while since I didn't have anything nice to say but they keep coming up.

After arguing with some friends a while back who decided not to vaccinate their young children for various paranoid reasons I decided to ask my family doctor what his opinion was.

He let out a big sigh and said "oh the internet..." then went on to explain the many reasons why he feels it's important to vaccinate and also discussed some of the (few and minimal) risks and shortcomings like Silver has mentioned.

My take, is that I trust my Dr. and believe he has a much better handle on immunology than me. And I'd bet that very few medical professionals would disagree with him.

[Countryguy]

Originally Posted by raab

It's basic bio. As I said look up immunology and you'll see why not everyone is protected fully. But if everyone gets the shot those who aren't fully protected should not contract the disease bad enough to have an outbreak.

I have done my share of reading when it comes to vaccines as well. The idea of vaccines is good, All the stuff they put in vaccines I don't believe is good. The effectiveness is not proven and long term effects of vaccines has also no studies that shows its worth.

Most people I knew growing up including myself had chickenpox, measles and some had mumps and not one person I know had any complications from them. I do have children of my own, all have had the chickenpox and lived through it just fine. I don't push my opinion on others just as we should not have yours pushed on us.

If vaccines are so good and yourself and your kids are protected why are you guys concerned over catching anything that you are supposedly protected from?

[Lucky707]

Everything medical is pretty much risk v. reward. You can choose to not take a blood pressure medication, and that will increase your risk of stroke. Maybe you didn't want to take it because you were worried about side effects. Everything is a trade-off.

I don't understand this logic of "if something isn't 100% effective and 100% proven to have no side effects I'm not going to take it at all" though. Especially with something like measles where the real risk is not acquiring it yourself but spreading it through the children in the community who could potentially get very sick from it.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Lucky707

Everything medical is pretty much risk v. reward. You can choose to not take a blood pressure medication, and that will increase your risk of stroke. Maybe you didn't want to take it because you were worried about side effects. Everything is a trade-off.

I don't understand this logic of "if something isn't 100% effective and 100% proven to have no side effects I'm not going to take it at all" though. Especially with something like measles where the real risk is not acquiring it yourself but spreading it through the children in the community who could potentially get very sick from it.

Blood pressure meds are a bad example. I've been dealing with self inflicted hypertension for years, now i'm older and realize that I need to make changes in my life to be healthier - and i have been.

I have so many friends on blood pressure meds of all kinds - they don't change their lifestyles. They choose not to lose weight, they choose not to change the diet, they choose not to exercise - because they belive the meds will take care of all that. They choose the risks associated with all the meds. When issues crop up from the meds or their lifestyles, there's always that added medication to take care of that too. That's why I choose not to medicate - I don't want to depend on anything like that.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Countryguy

I have done my share of reading when it comes to vaccines as well. The idea of vaccines is good, All the stuff they put in vaccines I don't believe is good. The effectiveness is not proven and long term effects of vaccines has also no studies that shows its worth.

Most people I knew growing up including myself had chickenpox, measles and some had mumps and not one person I know had any complications from them. I do have children of my own, all have had the chickenpox and lived through it just fine. I don't push my opinion on others just as we should not have yours pushed on us.

If vaccines are so good and yourself and your kids are protected why are you guys concerned over catching anything that you are supposedly protected from?

I'm in the medical profession and my concern isn't for myself or my kids. It's for the kids that can't be vaccinated, the ones who haven't had a chance to be vaccinated, and the immunocompromised such as the geriatric population, and people with various diseases like cancer, HIV, etc...

How would you feel if your child got the measles before you seen any symptoms and you went to visit one of your friends who just had a new born. Then the new born contracts measles and has life long brain damage because of it. The worst part is it could have been avoided if you were willing to give your child a shot that been proven to be completely safe in research papers from around the world.

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by Sashi

All the intelligence in the world is worth squat, without a speck of wisdom.

I'm so smart I get it wrong every time.

[Sashi]

The news tonight The latest case of measles was sent home and did not require hospitalization. Hallelujah... It must have been just the regular Measles and not the new Killer Strain.

[Sashi]

Originally Posted by nelsonob1

I'm so smart I get it wrong every time.

If you didn't get it you're not that smart yet

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by raab

I'm in the medical profession and my concern isn't for myself or my kids. It's for the kids that can't be vaccinated, the ones who haven't had a chance to be vaccinated, and the immunocompromised such as the geriatric population, and people with various diseases like cancer, HIV, etc...

How would you feel if your child got the measles before you seen any symptoms and you went to visit one of your friends who just had a new born. Then the new born contracts measles and has life long brain damage because of it. The worst part is it could have been avoided if you were willing to give your child a shot that been proven to be completely safe in research papers from around the world.

Well put sir! Most people are pretty ignorant to transfer of infectious diseases. The worst part is they still make the decision to avoid vaccinations.

My son was born premature in January and as a result has a compromised immune system. So we can't have people over that are sick or don't know if they are or not. He will be perfectly fine by two but we have to be cautious. But it's crazy how some people are! I've had people tell me that a cold will make him stronger , but depending what type it could actually severely hurt him for life. I've had people try to bring their kids even thou they're showing symptoms. But hey you can get it from anywhere is their comment!

I guess My son has opened my eyes. I know if I didn't vaccinate him and he got some ones baby sick, I'd never live it down. The vaccines work, hence the lack of measles, polio or smallpox!

[jamesonepp]

Originally Posted by greylynx

No insult to you, but I wonder how many other school teachers carry your belief.

Could you help me out, and ask if your fellow teachers believe in immunization in your staff room?

I honestly request a reply, and will not challenge you on your response.

I honestly Thank you.

Grey lynx,

The teachers that I asked today all chose to immunize their children. (No bias in the asking, just a busy day) Half of those asked get the yearly flu vaccine, even though school staff as a general rule have a fairly strong immunity to seasonal sicknesses like influenza.
Edit: meant to add, those that I asked were also immunized as children against things like smallpox. Maybe that makes a difference: if your parents chose to immunize you, would you choose to immunize your children? /edit

On a similar note, I regularly discuss the concepts of high-profile allergies in our school system, such as peanut allergies. We have two severe in our school, and several mild nut allergies. I can say with confidence that most of the staff I work with with agree that the rate of severity of these allergies (and could this extend logically to disease?) has increased since we were children. Does that mean that the diseases are more severe, or does that mean that our rates of detection are better, or that there is simply just a greater number of people in the world that have these allergies? I wonder what the next high-profile allergy is going to be that affects our society. I also wonder why they still sell nut products in grocery stores if peanut allergies are so severe, and so widespread (I say that with absolute sincerity and not sarcasm. There is no sarcasm font.)


I am not one of those that choose to get the flu shot every year. I do occasionally get sick, but maybe once a year at most. I eat as healthy as I can, exercise regularly, and believe in developing natural antibodies as well as supporting that with pharmaceutical vaccinations. Eg, If I were to travel out of country, I would get the immunization a recommended to me by my doctor, as the diseases in other countries are not the same, or different strains than what we have here.

I also find it interesting to read through all the posts in this thread and follow the various trains of thought and conversation that this has sparked. It's taken a variety of directions, and some circular arguments recently

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by jamesonepp

Grey lynx,

The teachers that I asked today all chose to immunize their children. (No bias in the asking, just a busy day) Half of those asked get the yearly flu vaccine, even though school staff as a general rule have a fairly strong immunity to seasonal sicknesses like influenza.
Edit: meant to add, those that I asked were also immunized as children against things like smallpox. Maybe that makes a difference: if your parents chose to immunize you, would you choose to immunize your children? /edit

On a similar note, I regularly discuss the concepts of high-profile allergies in our school system, such as peanut allergies. We have two severe in our school, and several mild nut allergies. I can say with confidence that most of the staff I work with with agree that the rate of severity of these allergies (and could this extend logically to disease?) has increased since we were children. Does that mean that the diseases are more severe, or does that mean that our rates of detection are better, or that there is simply just a greater number of people in the world that have these allergies? I wonder what the next high-profile allergy is going to be that affects our society. I also wonder why they still sell nut products in grocery stores if peanut allergies are so severe, and so widespread (I say that with absolute sincerity and not sarcasm. There is no sarcasm font.)


I am not one of those that choose to get the flu shot every year. I do occasionally get sick, but maybe once a year at most. I eat as healthy as I can, exercise regularly, and believe in developing natural antibodies as well as supporting that with pharmaceutical vaccinations. Eg, If I were to travel out of country, I would get the immunization a recommended to me by my doctor, as the diseases in other countries are not the same, or different strains than what we have here.

I also find it interesting to read through all the posts in this thread and follow the various trains of thought and conversation that this has sparked. It's taken a variety of directions, and some circular arguments recently

Jameson, Our school curriculum has failed in teaching basic immunology to even elementary school children. If children knew basic immunology they could teach it to their parents.

There is very big problem in this province. The ATA and the government do not want to change the curriculum to improve this province's level of education.

Talk to any faculty of education professor these days. They know how to improve our system...along with retired folks like .260.

Back to immunology. Any questions for Greylynx this evening about immunology?

He does know a thing or two about IGG A G E and M.

[beansgunsghandi]

Those who are saying measles vaccines aren't effective because vaccinated people still get measles need to understand some basic math. The Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine is about 90-95 percent effective. That means in a group of 100 people there are (using the worst-case scenario) 10 where the vaccine didn't provide immunity. In a measles outbreak I'd expect most of the people who get measles will have been vaccinated, and here's why:

Say an infected person comes into a community with 99 percent vaccination rates. He has encounters with 100 people, and let's say each encounter results in a new case of measles for simple math. The one person who didn't get vaccinated gets the measles, as well as about 9.9 vaccinated people. The other 89 don't get measles as the vaccine worked, awesome!

But the anti-vaxers like Silverdoctor cry, "Vaccines don't work! Nine times more vaccinated people (9) got the measles than unvaccinated (1)!" If an epidemic really got going (which is very difficult in a highly vaccinated population) then the majority of cases should, mathematically, be vaccinated people. The thing to remember is this: Do you want you or your kids in the 90-percent protected group, or in the 100 percent unprotected group?

The lower the percentage of the population that is vaccinated the more likely there is to be an epidemic. This is why most of the measles outbreaks have been in religious schools or other environments where kids aren't vaccinated. The mini-outbreaks don't generally go far beyond those environments as there aren't enough unvaccinated people to really get rolling. A few vaccinated people will get measles (and again I'd expect the majority of the cases to be in vaccinated people if the population is highly vaccinated), but there aren't enough unvaccinated people to really get going.

Or haven't been… If people listen to Silverdoctor and others who are contagious for fear-mongering then there may well be a return of easily preventable diseases on a scale we haven't seen in 50 years or longer.

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

Those who are saying measles vaccines aren't effective because vaccinated people still get measles need to understand some basic math. The Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine is about 90-95 percent effective. That means in a group of 100 people there are (using the worst-case scenario) 10 where the vaccine didn't provide immunity. In a measles outbreak I'd expect most of the people who get measles will have been vaccinated, and here's why:

Say an infected person comes into a community with 99 percent vaccination rates. He has encounters with 100 people, and let's say each encounter results in a new case of measles for simple math. The one person who didn't get vaccinated gets the measles, as well as about 9 vaccinated people. The other 90 don't get measles as the vaccine worked, awesome!

But the anti-vaxers like Silverdoctor cry, "Vaccines don't work! Nine times more vaccinated people (9) got the measles than unvaccinated (1)!" If an epidemic really got going (which is very difficult in a highly vaccinated population) then the majority of cases should, mathematically, be vaccinated people. The thing to remember is this: Do you want you or your kids in the 90-percent protected group, or in the 100 percent unprotected group?

The lower the percentage of the population that is vaccinated the more likely there is to be an epidemic. This is why most of the measles outbreaks have been in religious schools or other environments where kids aren't vaccinated. The mini-outbreaks don't generally go far beyond those environments as there aren't enough unvaccinated people to really get rolling. A few vaccinated people will get measles (and again I'd expect the majority of the cases to be in vaccinated people if the population is highly vaccinated), but there aren't enough unvaccinated people to really get going.

Or haven't been… If people listen to Silverdoctor and others who are contagious for fear-mongering then there may well be a return of easily preventable diseases on a scale we haven't seen in 50 years or longer.

Mr. Bean:

That is the best post you have ever made on AO.

Thank you.

Mastery of English and Math are the most important subjects in our school system. Every subject after these two are just for fun.

[jamesonepp]

Maybe if we're opening up the Math curriculum debate, it should be a separate thread.

Greylynx, what about the "mandatory" hepatitis vaccine that children get in grade five? Or the same could be said about kindergarten booster shots?
The two years that I taught grade five, all but one student got the vaccine (JW, but I don't think that had anything to do with it?)
AHS sends home the information early in the year for grade five, and parents are given the opportunity to opt out. Very rarely have I seen that happen however.
AHS comes out to the school to distribute the grade five hep vaccination, as it's the most effective way of getting to the largest number of kids. Can't assume that the parents would actually drive them down to the clinic, can we?

But in the same vein, I agree that there is little in our curriculum that teachers about immunology. I think in grade six there is a little about blood borne diseases in the health curriculum, but that's all I can think of as far as specific, direct instruction.