First run of 8000 Dodge Diesel 3.0L 1/2 ton pickups sell out in 3 days

[Bound2Fish]

So what are these new Ecodiesels worth?

[titegroup]

With the price of diesel fuel today, I really doubt I would buy one, they're screwing everyone at the pump. I bought my 5.9 -12-valve cummins new 20yrs. ago this April, haven't bought a new truck since, this ones been so good to us. It's got 85,000. mi. on her, don't see the winter, 2 WD fairweather trailer puller. She's mildly tweaked, BD fuel plate/ 3 piece BD exaust manifold/ 4"exaust/ flow pro max non-chambered muffler/ 4:10 gears/ Autometer gauges/ BD Valvtrain cool covers( finned). I'm a fan of these old school lower tech diesels, she gets 15mpg pullin a 10,000lb. Arctic Fox/ highway @ 105km./ hr. and about 28mpg @ 110km/hr empty. When I bought this truck diesels weren't that common on the road and there was a huge advatange , as fuel was much cheaper than gasoline. Today everyone's got to have one, even if it's just for the cool-factor or to go pick up a lottery ticket, as a result , absurd diesel prices. I don't even know if a new diesel is next to me at the traffic light, as mine sounds like a" real " diesel, and she's not for sale, ---just my thoughts---TG.

[HyperMOA]

Gotta say that I myself, as a diesel mechanic have always been a big believer in diesel. Not so much anymore. With a 30% premium on fuel and about $10,000 for the option it will never recoup its cost with the mileage they are getting now. Plus the reliability of the diesel is getting poorer and poorer, while repairs get more and more expensive

Sure, sink another $3000 and do the deletes and you can get better mileage but you just moved the bar for when costs are recouped.

Unless you are pulling huge loads all the time I am afraid I think the day of the diesel is over. Until now. To pull a half-ton towable trailer I will trade in my Chevy to try this dodge. It will probably get twice the mileage and even tug up the hills a tad harder.

Before I commit though, I gotta say that I will wait 2 or 3 years and see how they pan out.

[marauder11]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

They're a diesel for fuel economy without sacrificing power. Note their mileage and towing capacity compared to a gas counterpart. The trend with diesels in North America is towards being huge with massive torque and horsepower, the trend on the rest of the planet is 'right-sized' fuel efficient powerplants that get the job done. I know a guy who has two GMC diesels that are a few model years apart, and he likes his older one better because it gets more mileage and a longer cruising range than the higher powered newer model he also owns. The trucks are essentially twins otherwise, one is for his wife; he switched her over to the newer, less fuel efficient one because she drives less.

9200 lbs is not class leading. We all know the the eco boost doesn't get advertised. That's the epa they are using just like dodge will use the epa for this truck. I have an eco boost and love it. I hope anyone who buy these dodge truck has years of trouble free use. I am not a huge dodge fan but good on them for putting a diesel in a half ton. Also a side note the nissian will be a cummings motor in it from what i read in an article awhile ago


http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/27/n...meant-for-ram/

[benamen]

I personally prefer a gas powered half ton over a diesel. I do not tow very often but need something to haul fuel and goods to the cabin. I don't have a garage to store my vehicle in so prefer not having to plug in as often. Plus I want something with some snap to get me by all those diesel trucks pulling trailers especially when they are traveling close together and you have to pass two units at a time. Put on less than 20,000k each year so having a diesel saving me money is not likely especially with the price premium that a diesel truck has. So for me a V8 powered gas half ton suits my needs quite well.
I stay away from Dodge as I don't want warranty to be denied on a failed engine just because I forgot to change a fuel filter at the recommended interval. (happened to one firm I know of).

[JB_AOL]

I welcome the diesel in a half ton.
Tow ratings mean nothing at all.. The issue with the ecoboost and the ecodiesel, is that the trucks are lacking in proper payload. The ram 1500 only had a payload rating of 1600, which, once you add passengers, you don't have alot left.

I think the market is seriously lacking this department. They should be building a smaller 3/4 ton, or a HD 1/2 ton. Basically, either build a smaller diesel for the 3/4 tons, or build a proper 1/2 ton that has payload. IMHO, there is too big of gap, between the mall haulers and the 3/4 tons.

I'm hoping nissan gets their act together and makes their diesel a 3/4 ton.

Ram will sell ALOT of these trucks. Especially with the air suspension and diesel.

[crunchiespg]

The biggest hurdle for diesel is shown by some of the comments by people in this thread. Ignorance as to reality.
Wake up people, the rest of the world embraced diesel years ago, and are getting double the fuel economy we do here! Because of that they also get better gas engines. It's not uncommon to get regular cars with 60+mpg and SUV in the 50mpg range.

Modern, small displacement diesels put gas engines to shame in every respect. More power, more reliable, LESS maintenance.
You can't compare these to heavy duty diesel engines, they are different beasts. There are plenty of people saying that even sports cars will be diesel before long, look at Audi in the lemans 24hr. Their diesel wins all the time.

Even the worst reliability car in Europe doesn't fail because of the engine. Most small diesel engines will run for 100s of thousands with just oil changes. The crap cars in Europe fail in other areas, but rarely is it engine issues. All my friends and family over there drive diesels, and in normal car lifespans of say 200,000 to 300,000 miles the engines just don't fail. Over there the annual safety tests are the eventual downfall of cars, with them needing suspension work or whatever and they reach a point where the repairs are more than the cars value. Used cars are much cheaper there because of these tests and with the twisty roads they have a harder life in general. A 10 year old car may be worth less than $1000 there.

Most cars and SUV with diesels now have service intervals of over 20,000 miles!

If the market gets flooded with diesel cars the demand for fuel will increase and it will become more common. In Europe every pump has a diesel hose and a gas one. When that happens here the price difference will level out.

In a 1/2 ton truck I think they could easily go to an even smaller diesel. Say a 2.5l and get another big leap in economy and it would do the job for 99% of people.
Look at the toyota tacoma in the rest of the world, the hilux. It walks all over the Tacoma here, is indestructible and has huge savings in economy. All because it's diesel.

[Hevishot]

At 9200lbs of towing it will be good for the weekend boat towing crowd or maybe the guy with the ultra light 20ft trailer who drives further than 20 minutes from home to camp. On the downside I am expecting to see a few of these trucks towing 5th wheels that are much to big for them

[creeky]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

The biggest hurdle for diesel is shown by some of the comments by people in this thread. Ignorance as to reality.
Wake up people, the rest of the world embraced diesel years ago, and are getting double the fuel economy we do here! Because of that they also get better gas engines. It's not uncommon to get regular cars with 60+mpg and SUV in the 50mpg range.

Modern, small displacement diesels put gas engines to shame in every respect. More power, more reliable, LESS maintenance.
You can't compare these to heavy duty diesel engines, they are different beasts. There are plenty of people saying that even sports cars will be diesel before long, look at Audi in the lemans 24hr. Their diesel wins all the time.

Even the worst reliability car in Europe doesn't fail because of the engine. Most small diesel engines will run for 100s of thousands with just oil changes. The crap cars in Europe fail in other areas, but rarely is it engine issues. All my friends and family over there drive diesels, and in normal car lifespans of say 200,000 to 300,000 miles the engines just don't fail. Over there the annual safety tests are the eventual downfall of cars, with them needing suspension work or whatever and they reach a point where the repairs are more than the cars value. Used cars are much cheaper there because of these tests and with the twisty roads they have a harder life in general. A 10 year old car may be worth less than $1000 there.

Most cars and SUV with diesels now have service intervals of over 20,000 miles!

If the market gets flooded with diesel cars the demand for fuel will increase and it will become more common. In Europe every pump has a diesel hose and a gas one. When that happens here the price difference will level out.

In a 1/2 ton truck I think they could easily go to an even smaller diesel. Say a 2.5l and get another big leap in economy and it would do the job for 99% of people.
Look at the toyota tacoma in the rest of the world, the hilux. It walks all over the Tacoma here, is indestructible and has huge savings in economy. All because it's diesel.

-

What crunchiespg said-nice overview btw

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by creeky

-

What crunchiespg said-nice overview btw

Thank you.
My only other point is traditionally there has been two factors in North America when it comes to vehicles. We wanted big vehicles, but they had to be cheap with all the bells and whistles.
Second I'd say we all agree the oil companies and motor manufacturers hold massive political sway.

So why would they want to promote cheap efficient transport when they can keep selling old technology with huge profits while simultaneously ensuring the pockets of their golfing buddy oil baron are kept full so he can buy them all lunch?

North America has been led to believe diesel is bad, and the propaganda worked.

But the tide is changing.
I bet these sell so well ford will put the transit van 2.5 diesel in a f150 before the year is out.

I know a different beast, but look at the ford fiesta in Europe. The little gas engine is half the size of the one here and puts out more power while doing about 40% better economy.

Personally I'd love a utility type SUV with a small 1.9 ish diesel. Something like a land rover defender. Would be perfect for here.

[Mike_W]

I spent four weeks in Europe this past spring. Every vehicle there is diesel with the exception of anything super high end ( Lamborghini and Ferrari ) and mopeds / motorcycles.

I think they are on to something over there.

I personally like the new diesel vehicles we have here now as they don't stink and are much quieter. Unfortunately that results in less fuel economy. My self I cannot stand the smell of older diesel trucks. This why I have a 6L gas truck.

I think a 5L diesel in a 3/4 ton could prove to fill a void.

Mike

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

The biggest hurdle for diesel is shown by some of the comments by people in this thread. Ignorance as to reality.
Wake up people, the rest of the world embraced diesel years ago, and are getting double the fuel economy we do here! Because of that they also get better gas engines. It's not uncommon to get regular cars with 60+mpg and SUV in the 50mpg range.

Modern, small displacement diesels put gas engines to shame in every respect. More power, more reliable, LESS maintenance.
You can't compare these to heavy duty diesel engines, they are different beasts. There are plenty of people saying that even sports cars will be diesel before long, look at Audi in the lemans 24hr. Their diesel wins all the time.

Even the worst reliability car in Europe doesn't fail because of the engine. Most small diesel engines will run for 100s of thousands with just oil changes. The crap cars in Europe fail in other areas, but rarely is it engine issues. All my friends and family over there drive diesels, and in normal car lifespans of say 200,000 to 300,000 miles the engines just don't fail. Over there the annual safety tests are the eventual downfall of cars, with them needing suspension work or whatever and they reach a point where the repairs are more than the cars value. Used cars are much cheaper there because of these tests and with the twisty roads they have a harder life in general. A 10 year old car may be worth less than $1000 there.

Most cars and SUV with diesels now have service intervals of over 20,000 miles!

If the market gets flooded with diesel cars the demand for fuel will increase and it will become more common. In Europe every pump has a diesel hose and a gas one. When that happens here the price difference will level out.

In a 1/2 ton truck I think they could easily go to an even smaller diesel. Say a 2.5l and get another big leap in economy and it would do the job for 99% of people.
Look at the toyota tacoma in the rest of the world, the hilux. It walks all over the Tacoma here, is indestructible and has huge savings in economy. All because it's diesel.

First off European engines do not produce twice the efficiency of a North American engine. If you equal vehicle weights, physical size, ground clearance, and displacement the engines make basically the same mileage. It is not the engines that give us poor mileage, its the jacked up 38" tires rolling down the road with the aerodynamic efficiencies of a barn.

As for the less maintenance I agree with you however repair costs are substantially higher but that has a lot to do with a lack of training within our dealerships. They may have only one diesel technician. As for more reliable. DEFINITELY NOT. Especially not in the climate of Canada. Within a few years emissions technologies may advance to the point where I agree with you.

As for the cost of diesel with more cars on the road it will not make diesel cheaper. Possibly way into the future. Europe was built on diesel and petrol was the oddball in North America we built opposite. We do not have the infrastructure, plants, or capabilities to produce enough diesel to keep up with today's demands. That is why we experience so many diesel shortages. If one plant goes down within weeks diesel pumps are out of order. More demand will not help this. We need to have more supply before more demand.

As for the hilux's popularity, it may well be attributed to countries with less stringent emissions standards. I only assume this point and do not know for sure.

[CaberTosser]

Could you imagine how many diesel Hilux, real Landcruisers and Toyoace that Toyota could sell here if they just made them available? I would love a Toyoace with a van body on back for a service van: Toyota reliability and 4x4, which all the other influx of Euro vans (Sprinter, Transit & Dodge Promaster ( a rebadged Fiat Ducato) ) don't even have available. They sure would make Moose strikes up close & personal though! I'm sure the Aussies probably make some nice 'Roo guards for them.

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

First off European engines do not produce twice the efficiency of a North American engine. If you equal vehicle weights, physical size, ground clearance, and displacement the engines make basically the same mileage. It is not the engines that give us poor mileage, its the jacked up 38" tires rolling down the road with the aerodynamic efficiencies of a barn.

As for the less maintenance I agree with you however repair costs are substantially higher but that has a lot to do with a lack of training within our dealerships. They may have only one diesel technician. As for more reliable. DEFINITELY NOT. Especially not in the climate of Canada. Within a few years emissions technologies may advance to the point where I agree with you.

As for the cost of diesel with more cars on the road it will not make diesel cheaper. Possibly way into the future. Europe was built on diesepl and petrol was the oddball in North America we built opposite. We do not have the infrastructure, plants, or capabilities to produce enough diesel to keep up with today's demands. That is why we experience so many diesel shortages. If one plant goes down within weeks diesel pumps are out of order. More demand will not help this. We need to have more supply before more demand.

As for the hilux's popularity, it may well be attributed to countries with less stringent emissions standards. I only assume this point and do not know for sure.

You're comparing the reliability of a heady duty engine to a small diesel. They are totally different. The only time you'd see a heavy duty diesel type engine in Europe it would be in a bus.
Look at vw diesels here, I just sold my golf diesel with 300,000 on it and it ran as good as new and never had anything beyond regular services. I've seen lots with 500,000km on them still going strong. The car around the engine wasn't that great. But the engine never misses a beat.

In my family I don't know anyone who has had to do any major work on any Diesel engine in my life. Just routine stuff. Like I said the engines are never the part to break down. My first few cars were $300 bangers with over 200,000 miles and the engines ran and ran.
In my driving years there I never had any engine issues on any diesel.

And I stand by the efficiency. Like I said compare the same cars here as in Europe. The fiesta is identical apart from the engine and the euro one does much better. 65+ mpg and puts out more hp.
Same with bigger SUVs. Same vehicle is much more efficient there.
Granted we can't compare big trucks. But a transit van in Europe is the equivilant commercial vehicle and again gets much better economy.

You may be right about the infrastructure. But if diesel cars start to flood the market, which they will as the USA law for commercial fleet efficiency comes into effect soon, the changes will come.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

You're comparing the reliability of a heady duty engine to a small diesel. They are totally different. The only time you'd see a heavy duty diesel type engine in Europe it would be in a bus.
Look at vw diesels here, I just sold my golf diesel with 300,000 on it and it ran as good as new and never had anything beyond regular services. I've seen lots with 500,000km on them still going strong. The car around the engine wasn't that great. But the engine never misses a beat.

In my family I don't know anyone who has had to do any major work on any Diesel engine in my life. Just routine stuff. Like I said the engines are never the part to break down. My first few cars were $300 bangers with over 200,000 miles and the engines ran and ran.
In my driving years there I never had any engine issues on any diesel.

And I stand by the efficiency. Like I said compare the same cars here as in Europe. The fiesta is identical apart from the engine and the euro one does much better. 65+ mpg and puts out more hp.
Same with bigger SUVs. Same vehicle is much more efficient there.
Granted we can't compare big trucks. But a transit van in Europe is the equivilant commercial vehicle and again gets much better economy.

You may be right about the infrastructure. But if diesel cars start to flood the market, which they will as the USA law for commercial fleet efficiency comes into effect soon, the changes will come.

The brand new VW diesels use regenerative mufflers as well which are not the answer to the problem. As I stated in the future I believe that the technology will be better suited to our climate. My brother has had to get his year old
vw Golf towed to the city twice as it has derated and shut down with plugged DPF's.

As for the Fiesta I agree with you but you must also remember that only since about 2013 has the standards for diesel in North America come even close to the standards for refining diesel in Europe. There "petrol" is actually quite "dirty" compared to our standards in retrospect.

I am not arguing as stated I am a diesel mechanic and I think small displacement diesels definitely have a market. I just don't think culturally North America is there yet.

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

The brand new VW diesels use regenerative mufflers as well which are not the answer to the problem. As I stated in the future I believe that the technology will be better suited to our climate. My brother has had to get his year old
vw Golf towed to the city twice as it has derated and shut down with plugged DPF's.

As for the Fiesta I agree with you but you must also remember that only since about 2013 has the standards for diesel in North America come even close to the standards for refining diesel in Europe. There "petrol" is actually quite "dirty" compared to our standards in retrospect.

I am not arguing as stated I am a diesel mechanic and I think small displacement diesels definitely have a market. I just don't think culturally North America is there yet.

I think the big issue is the newest Diesel engine here is at least a generation behind the equivilant sold elsewhere.

And the emissions tests are deliberately made farsical so diesels fail. Government in oil mans pocket maybe?

They should look at overall emissions, as diesels are better. But they focus on that one part that is difficult to deal with to make it deliberately hard for diesels to pass

[creeky]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

Thank you.
My only other point is traditionally there has been two factors in North America when it comes to vehicles. We wanted big vehicles, but they had to be cheap with all the bells and whistles.
Second I'd say we all agree the oil companies and motor manufacturers hold massive political sway.

So why would they want to promote cheap efficient transport when they can keep selling old technology with huge profits while simultaneously ensuring the pockets of their golfing buddy oil baron are kept full so he can buy them all lunch?

North America has been led to believe diesel is bad, and the propaganda worked.

But the tide is changing.
I bet these sell so well ford will put the transit van 2.5 diesel in a f150 before the year is out.

I know a different beast, but look at the ford fiesta in Europe. The little gas engine is half the size of the one here and puts out more power while doing about 40% better economy.

Personally I'd love a utility type SUV with a small 1.9 ish diesel. Something like a land rover defender. Would be perfect for here.

we spent some of december in Yorkshire, seen more than a few defenders hauling loaded stock trailers like they where nothing-hard to figure them not selling well over here? I'd buy one in a heartbeat

[benamen]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...g-slow-decline

[32-40win]

Looks like that engine was originally destined for GM, interesting article;

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2013/07/...y-a-gm-engine/

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by benamen

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...g-slow-decline

An interesting read, but unless I'm mistaken the amount if diesel cars sold in Europe is still on an upward trend year after year. I do agree for the very small engine sizes the improvements in gas may be more viable. As I examples with the little ford fiesta which they also used as an example. The gains in moving to a diesel are less worth it.

But for bigger cars or SUV/trucks diesel makes a lot more sense. Especially for the torque gains which what make a real world difference. I'd prefer torque over hp any day for real world driving.

Hybrids kind of make sense in Europe when there's a lot more city driving in heavy traffic. Here with our big open highways a hybrid is a waste of time.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

The rest of the world has smaller diesels, and they get good performance and fuel economy. Why we can't get such a vehicle here is a shame.

And not just in trucks. Cars, vans, and sport utilities in Europe and Asia run small diesels.

x2 In Australia ALL the major mfg have dsl option in MANY vehicles, my friends parents just bought a 1.8L dsl Santa Fe and they love it. When I lived there I had a dsl Ford work van (cross between a mini van and a GMC Savannah) 2L dsl didn't set any land speed records but with close to 1ton of floor finishing machines in the back it never searched for torque and I def didn't fill the tank more than 1x per week, we also had a Mitsu and Mazda vans all dsl all under 2.2L. Interestingly the only dsl V8 or 5L+ engines are in Nth American imports. With no cold starts, engines last a lot longer too.

[ceedub]

I'll be sticking with my gas engine pickups. They start in winter, cost much much less to buy and maintain and the fuel is cheaper. The math just doesn't add up for me.

-Craig

[creeky]

Originally Posted by ceedub

I'll be sticking with my gas engine pickups. They start in winter, cost much much less to buy and maintain and the fuel is cheaper. The math just doesn't add up for me.

-Craig

my trusty 5.9 cummins starts on time, every time-35 unblockheatered- tho sure is noisy

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

I think the big issue is the newest Diesel engine here is at least a generation behind the equivilant sold elsewhere.

And the emissions tests are deliberately made farsical so diesels fail. Government in oil mans pocket maybe?

They should look at overall emissions, as diesels are better. But they focus on that one part that is difficult to deal with to make it deliberately hard for diesels to pass

Particulate and NOx are the 2 biggies for final tier emissions and yes the EU monitor them as well. The funniest thing about the new emissions is that the unit must meet emissions under normal operation. The engines aren't required to meet emissions while regenrating though. So we put all this emission junk on to catch the emissions to burn it and purge it when we don't have to meet emissions. Problem solved I guess.

Also with emission standards increased to protect our environment we are seeing consumption rates increasing sometimes by almost 50%!!! This in turn requires more diesel which requires more 797 haul trucks to haul more oilsands to be processed. . . . what a tangled web we weave.

[benamen]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

An interesting read, but unless I'm mistaken the amount if diesel cars sold in Europe is still on an upward trend year after year.

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/16/...en-axe-europe/

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by benamen

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/16/...en-axe-europe/

Yep. As I thought they are predicting they might slow down. But they haven't yet.

It does seem stupid they pass emissions laws that slightly decrease emissions, but make the cars use even more fuel. So per km driven I bet the old ones put out less harmful emissions in total.

[madatter]

Doesn't have to make sense....It is after all the government!!

[saskaman]

It would be nice to have a diesel in a halfton because they ride so much smoother, and are generally better on fuel. I love our 04 duramax 2500hd that gets 10.0l/100 or better but the 08 f-4506.4l powerstroke get 36l/100 no wonder I never drive unless its pulling something.

[Smokey]

Is the 10 percent better fuel enough to offset the 20 percent extra cost in diesel and higher maintainence and I assume purchase price. Not sure if I see a point unless Im pulling something. Would love to be convinced otherwise.

Would love to get my hands on the EcoJeep that I heard is rumoured to be comjng out with this motor,

[benamen]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

Yep. As I thought they are predicting they might slow down. But they haven't yet.

It does seem stupid they pass emissions laws that slightly decrease emissions, but make the cars use even more fuel. So per km driven I bet the old ones put out less harmful emissions in total.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/16/news...les/index.html