NOT a CCW thread

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by connexion123

BDB, I'm making nothing up. You glossed over the facts I posted in the beginning and took the very last thing I said and attacked me on it.

Quite frankly I don't care if you think it is opinion or fact.

The FACT is. CCW does save lives. Deal with it. And I'm not just talking about having access to a firearm in the home for defence, I already have that.

What I'm concerned with is not being able to carry in public where one is vulnerable.

Stabbing in Calgary of late? Could have been stopped.

Stabbing in Onterrible yesterday? Could have been stopped.

There are more than enough instances out there where a fireaŕm could have stopped a tragedy.

If you just want to be insulting and add nothing to the argument from either side just go away.

to use the firearm the crime would first have had been committed. consider the robber who was killed while trying to rob a gun store, the act of attempted robbery was enough for what was it 7 people to shoot the man. crimes will still be committed whether people are packing in public or not.

[Unregistered user]

This is NOT a CCW thread.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Wrong again...nobody is saying that CCW is the sole reason that gun deaths in the US are high....what they are saying is that CCW is not the magic fix to preventing crime and violent deaths like some would have us believe.

Seat belts do not prevent accidents or injury\death 100% of the time. I still wear one because it decreases the chance of injury\death in an accident.

CCW may not be the total fix to preventing crime and violent deaths but it increases your odds of survival.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by connexion123

BDB, I'm making nothing up. You glossed over the facts I posted in the beginning and took the very last thing I said and attacked me on it.

Quite frankly I don't care if you think it is opinion or fact.

The FACT is. CCW does save lives. Deal with it. And I'm not just talking about having access to a firearm in the home for defence, I already have that.

What I'm concerned with is not being able to carry in public where one is vulnerable.

Stabbing in Calgary of late? Could have been stopped.

Stabbing in Onterrible yesterday? Could have been stopped.

There are more than enough instances out there where a fireaŕm could have stopped a tragedy.

If you just want to be insulting and add nothing to the argument from either side just go away.

For a guy that took the position that he needed to feed everyone else hard "facts" you sure seem to be sensitive about a fair response in kind.

So... accepting that those stabbing could have been prevented please pray tell us... how CCW would have prevented them and while you are at it tell us if there is anything else that might have prevented those stabbings just as neatly.


Oh....and tell us have there been times that CCW and Open Carry actually did not prevent a tragedy or worse yet...when it actually caused a tragedy?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by expmler

Seat belts do not prevent accidents or injury\death 100% of the time. I still wear one because it decreases the chance of injury\death in an accident.

CCW may not be the total fix to preventing crime and violent deaths but it increases your odds of survival.

There ya go... making your own
"facts" again.

Prove it.

Do us all a courtesy and stop guessing and think about exactly what you are saying then back it up with facts. While you are at it include the data that argues otherwise.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

to use the firearm the crime would first have had been committed. consider the robber who was killed while trying to rob a gun store, the act of attempted robbery was enough for what was it 7 people to shoot the man. crimes will still be committed whether people are packing in public or not.

A woman walking to her car alone late at night in a deserted parking lot is approached by a stranger intent on robbing or raping her.

The woman brandishes the gun she carries in her purse and tells the man do not come any closer or I will shoot you.

The man leaves and the woman gets in her car and goes home.

A crime prevented by a woman packing a gun.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

There ya go... making your own
"facts" again.

Prove it.

Do us all a courtesy and stop guessing and think about exactly what you are saying then back it up with facts. While you are at it include the data that argues otherwise.

Go talk to a few police officers and ask them if they have ever used their sidearm to protect themselves or stop a crime.

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by expmler

Seat belts do not prevent accidents or injury\death 100% of the time. I still wear one because it decreases the chance of injury\death in an accident.

CCW may not be the total fix to preventing crime and violent deaths but it increases your odds of survival.

Actually, I don't think that comparison is accurate. In almost every jurisdiction where compulsory seat belts were enforced, the number of road deaths and serious injuries actually increased (for a short period then returned to the same level). It is an unusual phenomena known in safety economics as risk homeostasis theory, when safety measures are consumed by performance. For example, the free climber who gets his first length of rope, decides to climb more difficult climbs. He consumes the benefit in increased performance. It is theorized that different cultures and groups in society have perceived levels of acceptable risk and that if that risk is reduced they will consume the safety benefit, or inadvertently pass the risk to a third person. In the example of road safety measures this means driving a little faster, breaking a little harder, being less attentive. This behaviour can shift the burden of risk, in the example of the cars, more pedestrians and cyclists will die as a result of the increased performance and ultimately offset the benefit of the seat belts. The social economist Adams theorized that if you took away seat belts and installed spikes on steering wheels, the same amount of people would die, but everyone would drive slower and fewer pedestrians/cyclists would be killed.

In the case of your handguns, some cultures for a variety of complex and much debated reasons, are more likely to shoot each other than others. The Americans statistically are the top group in the Western Hemisphere. They are also twice as likely to die in a road accident when compared to say, the English, despite that they drive bigger, more engineered cars with more safety benefits on straighter roads at lower speeds.

What this has got to do with the thread I have no idea but since it took this long to type out I will send it anyway in the hope someone smarter than me can find a useful connection.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

There ya go... making your own
"facts" again.

Prove it.

Do us all a courtesy and stop guessing and think about exactly what you are saying then back it up with facts. While you are at it include the data that argues otherwise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2ytz4o

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by expmler

A woman walking to her car alone late at night in a deserted parking lot is approached by a stranger intent on robbing or raping her.

The woman brandishes the gun she carries in her purse and tells the man do not come any closer or I will shoot you.

The man leaves and the woman gets in her car and goes home.

A crime prevented by a woman packing a gun.

A woman who can read minds or see the future.....brandishes the gun she carries in her purse and tells the man do not come any closer or I will shoot you.

The man leaves and the woman gets in her car and goes home.

A crime prevented by a woman packing a gun.


Fixed it for ya.

Its pretty obvious that you have never walked the walk.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by expmler

A woman walking to her car alone late at night in a deserted parking lot is approached by a stranger intent on robbing or raping her.

The woman brandishes the gun she carries in her purse and tells the man do not come any closer or I will shoot you.

The man leaves and the woman gets in her car and goes home.

A crime prevented by a woman packing a gun.

Do you understand what a predator is. they dont roll up "scuse me miss ill be your attacker to night" they try to reduce the chances of defence, its part of there MO. SO if as you sugeest packing heat was all that effective. states that allow carry in any form would tend to be crime reduced .. that in reality is not the case as the predator evolves.. now the little lady with a 3dan black belt , buddy better hope he's packin cause the little lady is a weapon . That os taking the resoponcability for self protection relying on a tool is " if only"

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by expmler

Go talk to a few police officers and ask them if they have ever used their sidearm to protect themselves or stop a crime.

Oh...so you are a cop now?
And cops carry guns to prevent peole from initiating a crime?

Thats news.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by expmler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2ytz4o

Sorry can't view that one right now but I suspect that it is just as sloped and anecdotal as your other arguments...or are you sticking with hypotheticals now?

Lets face it...utube.....

That said...I'll take a boo at it later.

Did you also bother to check on how often CCW and open carry have gone wrong?

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by expmler

Go talk to a few police officers and ask them if they have ever used their sidearm to protect themselves or stop a crime.

The difference is though that they knowingly put themselves in harms way, anticipate needing their firearm, are trained to use it and then quite often get killed or injured themselves.

As Winnie the Pooh said, the problem with accidents is that you don't know your in one until your in one.

[bison]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Oh...so you are a cop now?
And cops carry guns to prevent peole from initiating a crime?

Thats news.

Yep, that worked excellent that time in the case of James Roszko in Mayerthorpe for one

99% of the time cops are just a cleanup crew after the fact, no need for guns at all.
The one that may have needed the gun is probably dead as a door nail

[expmler]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Do you understand what a predator is. they dont roll up "scuse me miss ill be your attacker to night" they try to reduce the chances of defence, its part of there MO. SO if as you sugeest packing heat was all that effective. states that allow carry in any form would tend to be crime reduced .. that in reality is not the case as the predator evolves.. now the little lady with a 3dan black belt , buddy better hope he's packin cause the little lady is a weapon . That os taking the resoponcability for self protection relying on a tool is " if only"

Interesting, a gun is ineffective for a "little lady" to protect herself against a man, but a gun would protect a man from the "little lady"

[BeeGuy]

I wish I could carry a sidearm for dispatching some of the large trout I catch.

A knife just isn't effective enough and they keep squirming around after the fact.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by bison

Yep, that worked excellent that time in the case of James Roszko in Mayerthorpe for one

99% of the time cops are just a cleanup crew after the fact, no need for guns at all.
The one that may have needed the gun is probably dead as a door nail

Yeah... thats what I was trying to say

[Gust]

So I'm going to posts articles from both sides of the debate, and there's a link in this one that could provide other things about CCW/OCW that we in Canada might not consider.



Violence Policy Center Says Florida Tops Nation In Killings by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders
Updated: Tue 1:26 PM, Nov 17, 2009
Violence Policy Center Press Release:

Washington, DC--

Concealed handgun permit holders killed eight law enforcement officers and 77 private citizens (including 10 shooters who killed themselves after an attack) during the period May 2007 through October 2009 according to a new Violence Policy Center (VPC) on-line resource that tallies news reports of such killings.

The web site, CCW Killers, is located at http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm and is updated monthly to include new fatal shootings and changes in the legal status of concealed handgun permit holders facing criminal charges. (Any concealed handgun permit holders who are eventually acquitted of their alleged crimes are not included in the tallies maintained on the site although the facts surrounding the shooting are detailed.)

In Florida, concealed handgun permit holders killed 14 people in 11 separate incidents. Two incidents resulted in the alleged murders of two law enforcement officers. On August 19, 2009, Tampa police officer Corporal Mike Roberts questioned Humberto Delgado Jr. who was pushing a shopping cart filled with military gear and firearms, including an assault rifle. After a struggle, Officer Roberts was allegedly gunned down while on his back by Delgado. And on August 5, 2008, U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agent Donald Pettit was allegedly shot and killed by James Wonder at a post office parking lot after a road rage incident.

Two other Florida incidents involved murder-suicides. One of the most grisly occurred on March 8, 2008, when Christine Burroughs ran to her neighbor's house naked and covered in blood. Her husband, Arthur Burroughs, pursued her, fatally shooting their neighbor, Lance Lather, before shooting his wife and then himself.
(See http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwtotalkilled.pdf for detailed descriptions of the incidents.)

“Florida's deeply flawed concealed handgun permit system is an abject failure and urgently needs to be strengthened, if not abolished,” said Scott Vogel, communications director for Freedom States Alliance, a national organization that supports grassroots organizations and advocates working to prevent gun violence, which assisted in releasing today's study. “Florida's failed system allowing the carrying of hidden and loaded handguns in public weakens public safety and threatens police. No other state comes close to the numbers of concealed handgun permit holders involved in lethal shootings.”

The new VPC web site offers detailed descriptions of the 46 incidents, which occurred in 18 states. Of these incidents, 10 were murder-suicides involving firearms and eight were mass shootings (three or more victims) that claimed as many as 11 lives at a time. Law enforcement officers were killed in Florida (two incidents), Idaho, Ohio, and Pennsylvania (two incidents). All of the law enforcement killings were committed with guns.

Private citizens were killed in Alabama, California, Colorado, Florida (nine incidents), Idaho (two incidents), Kentucky, Michigan (three incidents), New York, North Carolina (two incidents), Ohio (three incidents), Oklahoma (two incidents), Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina (two incidents), Tennessee (five incidents), Texas, Utah (two incidents), and Virginia (three incidents). All but one of the killings were committed with guns.

Kristen Rand, legislative director for the Violence Policy Center, states, "This new web site makes clear that contrary to the false promises of the gun lobby the simple and deadly fact is that state concealed handgun systems are arming cop-killers, mass shooters, and other murderers."

Because most state systems that allow the carrying of concealed handguns in public by private citizens release little data about crimes committed by permit holders, the VPC reviews and tallies concealed handgun permit holder killings as reported by news outlets. It is likely that the actual number of fatal criminal incidents involving concealed handgun permit holders is far higher.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Yeah... thats what I was trying to say

OK, so if guns are totally ineffective in preventing crime, stopping a crime in progress, self defense, saving lives or preventing injury, why do we arm police.

[Gust]

OH NO, I lost a link that points out that you are three times as likely to be killed a cop who CCW's that a citizen who CCW's.

http://www.lanejudson.com/OFFICER_IN...FATALITIES.htm

Sorry for the derail swifty.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

I wish I could carry a sidearm for dispatching some of the large trout I catch.

A knife just isn't effective enough and they keep squirming around after the fact.

Why would a lethal weapon need a knife to kill a fish.

[220swifty]

Originally Posted by Gust

OH NO, I lost a link that points out that you are three times as likely to be killed a cop who CCW's that a citizen who CCW's.

http://www.lanejudson.com/OFFICER_IN...FATALITIES.htm

Sorry for the derail swifty.

It happened before you showed up.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by expmler

Why would a lethal weapon need a knife to kill a fish.

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by expmler

OK, so if guns are totally ineffective in preventing crime, stopping a crime in progress, self defense, saving lives or preventing injury, why do we arm police.

Because they get you back your sneakers with no risk to the citizen

[Gust]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

It happened before you showed up.

I started a thread similar in January about having more remote located people act as a citizens constabulary (with training and such) but that went backwards and fizzled out. Derailed - ironically - by the arrogance of a member who is Pro but would never stoop so low to agree with a member he doesn't like,, which really is the true failure all around.

[bison]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Yeah... thats what I was trying to say

Well i guess you read it wrong,.i was trying to say arm the law abiding citizen and issue a broom to the cops

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by expmler

OK, so if guns are totally ineffective in preventing crime, stopping a crime in progress, self defense, saving lives or preventing injury, why do we arm police.

I never said that guns were not effective...guns are not the issue.

People on the other hand....

I for one would love to be able to carry a gun under appropriate circumstances. I would not mind that others might be permitted to do the same but... not a concealed weapon and not in the hands of anyone not specifically trained in the appropriate laws and specifically trained and conditioned on how to react in crisis situations...escalation avoidance and finally... trained in armed response to threats and killing.

Its serious business and not for anyone unwilling to commit to something more than a filling out an application and buying a new holster.

Still waiting for some answers by the way... just sayin.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by bison

Well i guess you read it wrong,.i was trying to say arm the law abiding citizen and issue a broom to the cops

Yes I know and... I disagree.

You already have all the rights and legal clearances required for defense both in and out of court.

What is lacking is discipline and the level of training required to prevent individuals from being more of a hazard to themselves and others than a helper to society.

There is more to it than talk and target practice.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

It happened before you showed up.

Well...for what it is worth... I to am sorry for my part in it.

I think we both know that it was bound to happen though.

Bee is right at #128