Marijuana

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm not sure where to even begin bee......think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Fair enough.

Cheers

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BBBB

Make mine a double rye and keeping em coming. Just blowing off some steam and trying to escape. IMO, I have seen way tooooo much damage from leagalized booze than from someone smoking a joint.

That is the single biggest excuse as to why some drugs should be legal. Booze can destroy you if abuse just the same as drugs...and I have seen it. One can postulate why alcohol is tolerated in society...but it still has limitation in law for your right to drink. I still say it is important to note that alcohol is a dead end substance to abuse...insofar as alcohol is alcohol and it all has the same effects on a person. While advocates of drug use deny it...some people using pot do go on to try the harder drugs. Many people on meth started on pot. It is a fact that can not be ignored.

Is the fact people abuse alcohol reason enough to support and condone drug use through de-legalizing? I say no.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BBBB

Ask any policeman how many calls are booze related?? If they banned booze, we could let all the policeman go and pursue other jobs!
But.....it's LEGAL

Do you draw any similarities between abuse of booze and drugs insofar as there is no problem in society.

You point out very clearly this one important point. Society chose to allow alcohol even though there is abuse. I believe because it starts and ends at booze. Drugs on the other hand has a progression from pot through to meth. So if society as you clearly pointed out...can't handle a society with decriminalized alcohol consumption...what do you think will happen with an open season on drugs? I see the common sense wisdom saying abuse of drugs will follow the same pattern of alcohol. Most will not abuse and live fine in society...others will step well off the path into the darkness.

What would keep police busier...legal alcohol or legal drugs? Good question.

[Findal]

I believe because it starts and ends at booze. Drugs on the other hand has a progression from pot through to meth.

That really is such BS!

Booze is a drug and most folks have a drink before they get a puff of pot. So, following your logic it really is the booze that is the precursor to use of other mind altering substances.

One isn't a cause for the other in either case really, it's a choice, and one start does not lead to other or heavier 'stuff' unless that person wants.

If any substance were to lead to making bad choices, it's booze that wins out there.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Findal

That really is such BS!

Booze is a drug and most folks have a drink before they get a puff of pot. So, following your logic it really is the booze that is the precursor to use of other mind altering substances.

One isn't a cause for the other in either case really, it's a choice, and one start does not lead to other or heavier 'stuff' unless that person wants.

If any substance were to lead to making bad choices, it's booze that wins out there.

You are certainly correct. For many that can't handle alcohol and either have a predisposition for substance abuse...or have mental problems...or have an emotional breakdown they can turn to alcohol and often drug pushers prey on these sorts of people. Often bars can be a collection point for finding a higher precentage of victims to get hooked on the next step. I would say however...alcohol to pot is probably occuring...but so is alcohol to other drugs and the same can apply of pot to other drugs.

It is not as if I am saying one is better than the other or one is good and one is bad. Society chose to accept alcohol...I have 1 or 2 glasses of wine some evenings and definitely like my rum and coke...sometimes rye and ginger...but I digress. I don't abuse it...you likely don't abuse it but unfortunately a percentage always does.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by GustavMahler

I can find the article if you like on, the movement of large containment vehicles in and out of the poppy fields, unchecked all the while every car and burka checked for bombs and guns.

but frog,
I posted this earlier
14 years for growing pot, 15 years for Karla Homulka, are the crimes equal?

Very interesting point.

On the face of it...no. Karla should be visiting the supreme judge already...but the sentence was light...she got lucky by withholding evidence showing here being complicit.

As for the pot...if the person was growing his/her own...no. IF the person had a big business and working for a crime family and drugs were getting into the hands of kids...sure...most pot users will be fine...but out of say 10,000...what percentage went on to start other drugs...got into meth...started stealing for the habit...ruined families...left little kids with a single parent...now the kids are messed up going into society.

There is a point to be made for the chaos theory these growing cause in society. IMHO.

[Wolftrapper]

Get over it, the law is the law for a reason. Pot heads and druggies are losers plain and simple.
I'm sure 95% of everyone on this board would agree with me and want to say it.
I can't believe this post is still going.
You guys that are justifying your drug abusing ways and worrying about going to jail should be outside enjoying the fall instead of spending your entire life on the computer.
I'm sure you won't though, you will get mad and spout off blah blah blah.

That's what dope, booze and general laziness does to you.
YOUR why we need laws.

[Toirtis]

Originally Posted by Wolftrapper

Get over it, the law is the law for a reason.

Can I quote that generality in reference to long-gun registry, too?

Pot heads and druggies are losers plain and simple.

You forgot drunks and smokers....

should be outside enjoying the fall instead of spending your entire life on the computer.

A surprising percentage of marijuana users are very 'outdoor active' in sports, etc....you seem to have fallen for a stereotype there.

I'm sure you won't though, you will get mad and spout off blah blah blah.

YOUR why we need laws.

You're why we need language education.

OK, most of that was serious, but there were too many spoons in that post for me not to stir the pot, just for giggles.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by GustavMahler

but frog,
I posted this earlier
14 years for growing pot, 15 years for Karla Homulka, are the crimes equal?

As far as I am concerned this is a absolutely ridiculous comparison. She got 15 years because of a plea bargain to get Bernardo. They found the video which proved her guilt after the fact.

[bb356]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

As far as I am concerned this is a absolutely ridiculous comparison. She got 15 years because of a plea bargain to get Bernardo. They found the video which proved her guilt after the fact.

and a lawyer knew all about the video !!! That SOB should be strung up also !!!

[Gust]

Originally Posted by Wolftrapper

Get over it, the law is the law for a reason. Pot heads and druggies are losers plain and simple.
I'm sure 95% of everyone on this board would agree with me and want to say it.
I can't believe this post is still going.
You guys that are justifying your drug abusing ways and worrying about going to jail should be outside enjoying the fall instead of spending your entire life on the computer.
I'm sure you won't though, you will get mad and spout off blah blah blah.

That's what dope, booze and general laziness does to you.
YOUR why we need laws.

For the record I'm not a drug user,,, I thought this thread was about un/reasonable sentences and the fit to the crime. The pot arguement is a different thread,,, some here myself included are saying the sentences are a wee bit intense and others are saying make it tougher,,, then we got into the rank of the crime, who wins loses gains financialy and so forth. Would decriminalisation work and if not why?

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Doesn't anyone think it is just sad that someone does not like the state of their mind, where they are in or their life... that they have to smoke dope to feel better. I don't get it... Maybe because I didn't grow up thinking to have fun I need to be high or drunk.

IMHO that is the problem with youth these days...they don't appreciate family, nature, fishing, hunting, just being alive and turn to drugs to escape. It seems to be getting worse. Are kids just bored...parents screwed up by not providing enough stimulation or enough variation in their youth to show them alternatives to being stoned?

Maybe it is just really poor parenting now unfortunately being passed onto the next generation. When you think about it...stoners raising stoners...makes you sad and want to smoke pot. What a vicious circle of life.

No different than haveing a few glasses of wine or a rum and coke.

Good Points SD Fisher.
I guess the bottom line with me is pot shouldn't be a criminal offence. Our courts and jails are full enough. I am also not a big believer in pot being a gateway drug,

And if you think pot heads are loosers Wolftrapper.....then I think you have been living downwind of the plants in Fort Sask.

Generalizations get people in trouble...

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by alwaysfishn

The only reason it is not a deterrent is because our jails are basically a resort destination for criminals! Put them in work chain gangs, house them in tents, make them cook their own food, do their own laundry, etc.

The fact is people know when they are committing a crime and criminals make a conscious choice to do so! More policing while good, is expensive and breeds more creative criminals. Along with that comes the attitude that a crime is ok as long as you don't get caught....

The fact is a crime is a choice and needs to be punished. If more criminals experienced that, word would get out. In countries like Saudi Arabia their is very little theft because the punishment is the severance of your right hand. Maybe that is an alternative??

Have you ever been in our prisons?
The reason we give prisoners something to entertain themselves is...it' safer for guards and prison is supposed to be correction not just punishment.
A guilded cage is still a cage.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Toirtis

Can I quote that generality in reference to long-gun registry, too?



You forgot drunks and smokers....



A surprising percentage of marijuana users are very 'outdoor active' in sports, etc....you seem to have fallen for a stereotype there.

I'm sure you won't though, you will get mad and spout off blah blah blah.



You're why we need language education.

OK, most of that was serious, but there were too many spoons in that post for me not to stir the pot, just for giggles.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by 209x50

But it has worked sooo well in the Netherlands! They went form no heroin addicts to filling the hospitals with them. What harm is a little pot? lots it would seem.

Pot wasn't a problem before it was decriminalized and prohibition increases crime. Look how successful organized crime has become through marketing illegal substances starting with alcohol.
Before prohibition they were just a bunch of loosely affiliated thugs.

The Netherlands plan has been a success so far.
Sure there were undesirable windfall effects such as a migration of users and a flood of addicts seeking treatment but...there was still a general reduction in crime and cost.

In time this will stabilize and the Netherlands will recognize their need to send foreign addicts packing.

In any case this was a 1st attempt... we could probably learn from them and develop a better plan that avoided some of the previously unforeseen pitfalls.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by alwaysfishn

The problem is that our free medical system can't afford to treat the people with regular ailments let alone the drug induced ones. That alone is a good argument for stiffer sentences for drug infractions. Chances are that it may be cheaper holding people in jails rather than treating them in our medical system.

The medical system can't afford things because every GP in North Amerca seems to think he should be a millionaire within 10 years of graduation and because we over test, over treat and pamper people with head colds when they show up at clinics.

Opiates are dirt cheap to produce... cheaper than almost any other drug....cheaper than tylenol....therefore... treating heroine addicts can be pretty cost effective compared to a lot of other things we pay for.

[RandyBoBandy]

I've always wondered about how many domestic disputes are attended by the police due to smoking? how many for smoking pot? how many for alcoholism? Added to that, how many car wrecks/vehicular deaths caused by smoking? Driving under the influence of pot? Driving under the influence of alcohol?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Jail is a damn good deterrent if you go long enough to really matter, to your Life. Besides, while you're in there, we won't have to worry about you committing any more crimes. Cost ? I suggest dropping the standard of Living of incarcerated felons, dramatically. Make it bad enough, that no one in his right mind would want to go back and while you're in there, we'll make you work your ass off.

Comment by Calgary's Police chief today. Guy got busted with drugs. In Canada he would have gotten three years, but since it was the US border service who busted him, he's doing thirty. You don't think that's a deterrent?

Grizz

Grizz

Well duh...let me think about that for a minute.

Nope....obviously not... he committed the crime didn't he?
A deterrent would have prevented that.
Thats what deterrent means...

The deterrent in having more police is...a reduction in the confidence that you won't get caught.

[great white whaler]

Wonder drug !!!!!!!!!!

[Killerb]

Lets put it this way. What is the most common prescribe drug for paun t3s. Well everything t3s can relieve pot can relieve as well. Side effects of t3s are pretty scary specially if its abused. Pot will make you empty out your pantry. You need to smoke 10x your body weight in pot to die from it. You only need to take alcohol with t3s to die from it. Its not about public safety, its about controlling the public.

Originally Posted by Killerb

Lets put it this way. What is the most common prescribe drug for paun t3s. Well everything t3s can relieve pot can relieve as well. Side effects of t3s are pretty scary specially if its abused. Pot will make you empty out your pantry. You need to smoke 10x your body weight in pot to die from it. You only need to take alcohol with t3s to die from it. Its not about public safety, its about controlling the public.

Ummmm, T3s are a controlled drug and can only be prescribed by a doctor....same as medical pot.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Funny...I haven't touched anything but a bit of rye and the odd beer in almost 27 years but I'm actually enjoying this banter.

Thing is it is obviously becoming more about personal morality or personal feelings about drugs than discussion about real solutions to a social disease and crime.

The guys that have not and would not ever do drugs... against those that have and/or do.

There are a few of us that don't and may or may not have as well and we seem to be sort of middle ground on a lot of this.

Just to try to bring this back to the center....

What does everyone think we should do with

A) Drug dealers....not the little guys supporting their own habit... just the bosses;

B) The little guys that are also in a way... victims dealing to support their habit; and

C) Those that have become addicted whether by the medical system or their own poor choices?

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Tezma

I'm Telling you all, This is really good..

"The Union: The Business Behind Getting High (2007)"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwkFm...eature=related

thanks tezma, this is a really good documentary... I heard that the oil company's made it illegal because of the competition. The Ford Model T car was made from hemp plastic (which is 10 times stronger than steel) and actually ran off of hemp oil(or any other kind of seed, ect) In 1900 the car ran off of peanut oil!! if the U.S. would take 6% of their land and grow industrial hemp, they would never need any more oil/gas... and it is renewable and could produce clothing/plastic with leftovers.

theres a picture of Henry Ford on a pile of hemp.

[great white whaler]

Originally Posted by pesky672

Funny...I haven't touched anything but a bit of rye and the odd beer in almost 27 years but I'm actually enjoying this banter.

Thing is it is obviously becoming more about personal morality or personal feelings about drugs than discussion about real solutions to a social disease and crime.

The guys that have not and would not ever do drugs... against those that have and/or do.

There are a few of us that don't and may or may not have as well and we seem to be sort of middle ground on a lot of this.

Just to try to bring this back to the center....

What does everyone think we should do with

A) Drug dealers....not the little guys supporting their own habit... just the bosses;

B) The little guys that are also in a way... victims dealing to support their habit; and

C) Those that have become addicted whether by the medical system or their own poor choices?

at the end of the day and the works all done ,its time to change the channel, weed pusher 14 years ,just ant right ,why should i 'the tax payer support the jail house , for something so retarded.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by great white whaler

at the end of the day and the works all done ,its time to change the channel, weed pusher 14 years ,just ant right ,why should i 'the tax payer support the jail house , for something so retarded.

.

Some young guy or gal gets nailed for a half dozen plants....14 years in the digger might as well be life....cause it'll ruin them anyway.

When I was 18....6 plants was personal smoke.
The 7-11 loved me....lol

Oh well....the pendulum will swing back the other way eventually.

[great white whaler]

Originally Posted by pesky672

.

Some young guy or gal gets nailed for a half dozen plants....14 years in the digger might as well be life....cause it'll ruin them anyway.

When I was 18....6 plants was personal smoke.
The 7-11 loved me....lol

Oh well....the pendulum will swing back the other way eventually.

i dont like harper's ways ,,i am a,, i like jean chretien for is believes ' harper is a hyporcrite towards pot use ,,,,full of promise . legalize ,,,get her done ,this could be the riches country in the world .

[great white whaler]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

thanks tezma, this is a really good documentary... I heard that the oil company's made it illegal because of the competition. The Ford Model T car was made from hemp plastic (which is 10 times stronger than steel) and actually ran off of hemp oil(or any other kind of seed, ect) In 1900 the car ran off of peanut oil!! if the U.S. would take 6% of their land and grow industrial hemp, they would never need any more oil/gas... and it is renewable and could produce clothing/plastic with leftovers.

theres a picture of Henry Ford on a pile of hemp.

wicked

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by great white whaler

i dont like harper's ways ,,i am a,, i like jean chretien for is believes ' harper is a hyporcrite towards pot use ,,,,full of promise . legalize ,,,get her done ,this could be the riches country in the world .

Lets face it...politicians in general are ALL jerks.
I didn't mind Cretian...he was OK...for a Liberal....but don't tell anyone I said that.

Harper on the other hand is a bit too far to the right for my comfort as well.

Seems like everyone forgets that our neighbours to the south may be friends but they are also our competition.
Obama and crew are interested in American interests above all others and Canadian politicians need to quit parroting the US at the expense of this countries people and our sovereignty.