Snowmobile trespass

[grouse_hunter]

Sadly, I've had to apprehend trespassers a number of times. I always carry a loaded shotgun when approaching them. I carry it over my shoulder, not in my hands. Honestly, if a group of people have no regard for the trespassing laws and are openly breaking them, should I assume that they will abide the laws pertaining to firearms, assault, etc? Maybe they are lost, or maybe they are drunk douches, with guns for "just in case".
The landowner may have over-reacted, but give him a break.

[kropsbone]

i own land and dont care if people go across my hay field, woopydo! around my area no one cares if your going across there field, differnt if you were snooping or bothering someone or somthing[cattle,horses] but really is everyone wound that tight that you get mad about someone going across your field 100 200 yards away or on a whole differnt section of land,if posted differnt story, then stay off

[fargineyesore]

Originally Posted by Fisherpeak

Not as hard as a length of barbwire strung 3 feet off the ground.

You advocating that?

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by kropsbone

i own land and dont care if people go across my hay field, woopydo! around my area no one cares if your going across there field, differnt if you were snooping or bothering someone or somthing[cattle,horses] but really is everyone wound that tight that you get mad about someone going across your field 100 200 yards away or on a whole differnt section of land,if posted differnt story, then stay off

Shouldn't need to post it. If it's not yours stay off it unless you've got permission. I don't appreciate people on my land with out me knowing.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Shouldn't need to post it. If it's not yours stay off it unless you've got permission. I don't appreciate people on my land with out me knowing.

X2

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Shouldn't need to post it. If it's not yours stay off it unless you've got permission. I don't appreciate people on my land with out me knowing.

Yup exactly. Shouldn't have to post.
It's easy and simple
"Hey sorry to bug you you mind if we take the sleds out in your pasture?"
"Nope, just close the gates"

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by brownbomber

Yup exactly. Shouldn't have to post.
It's easy and simple
"Hey sorry to bug you you mind if we take the sleds out in your pasture?"
"Nope, just close the gates"

In my world the answer is always no unless you ask. I can pretty much guarantee that if it were my place they'd be greeted with more than a smile.

[crownb]

I am not advocating bringing guns to any conflict, but maybe that old farmer was right for being scared, look at how aggressive the guy was on skidoo two, he jumped right off and approached the farmer, what would that rider have done if the farmer wasn't carrying that gun, just saying if I drove up on a guy packing a gun and he seemed agitated the last thing I would do would be to run up in His direction.

[Wes_G]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

I know what I would do.

If I got away without incident it would be straight to the RCMP with the video, asking the RCMP to pursue charges of uttering threats, common assault, assault with a weapon, pointing a firearm, use of firearm in commission of an offense, intimidation, unlawful confinement, threat of bodily harm, damage to personal property.

Then I would contact a Collection Agency and have them go after him for the damages to the snowmobile. (hood)

THEN I would go to the media.

All while taking no responsibility for your own actions of trespassing on private property, right?

[creeky]

It's one thing with the actual trespassing part, shoulda just took the lumps with the landowner- lesson learned and then move on.

It's a whole other thing to knowingly break the law and then attempt to demean/punish/out the landowner in the media & the investigation that comes with it. If the sledders parents are aware of this and onboard with how there kids have conducted themselves, then i would label it an epic parenting failure of audacious entitlement.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Wes_G

All while taking no responsibility for your own actions of trespassing on private property, right?

I don't knowingly trespass.

Actually, I have to add to that.
When I had sleds, it was never an issue riding anywhere we wanted. Everyone knows everyone and unless there was a crop of winter wheat or fall rye and it was posted, none of the farmers I ever encountered were panicky or miserable or pulled shotguns and rifles if a sledder went by. Mind you, we didn't go burn doughnuts on the new pavement or in the yards.
I pity you guys with uptight landowners, maybe get out and meet them. if the uptight landowners on here don't want to meet sledders I guess they will find out.

[leeaspell]

Originally Posted by kropsbone

i own land and dont care if people go across my hay field, woopydo! around my area no one cares if your going across there field, differnt if you were snooping or bothering someone or somthing[cattle,horses] but really is everyone wound that tight that you get mad about someone going across your field 100 200 yards away or on a whole differnt section of land,if posted differnt story, then stay off

So basically if I buy land next to you, I should be ok with people being on there, because everyone does it?

[beltburner]

I still say the farmer was an idiot.Going into a confrontation all ****ed off with a gun is a perfect way for someone to end up dead. Everyone on this forum should be mad at him for endangering one of the things we like---GUNS. Now there will be a media frenzy again about banning more guns; just what we need. Weather or not the sledders were being stupid etc is not the issue. Who does the guy think he is? Uncle Jesse?

[brownbomber]

I seriously doubt this was a first time reaction to sledders on his property. I had a problem with sledders and atv crowd being on my family's pasture land and being highly disrespectful and yes in the end it took some anger to resolve the issue but in the end it was resolved and those involved have seen the error in their ways. It can be very frustrating to talk to the same people over and over and close gates and repair fence, and then have them try harder to aggravate you because you asked nicely to quit. Some people don't understand nice, they only understand not nice.

[beltburner]

I understand the frustration of land owners however bringing a gun into the mix is just bad in every aspect. Hopefully he doesn't get brought up on charges etc; but there's a very good chance that he will get assault charges pressed against him since he made contact while holding a gun.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by beltburner

I still say the farmer was an idiot.Going into a confrontation all ****ed off with a gun is a perfect way for someone to end up dead. Everyone on this forum should be mad at him for endangering one of the things we like---GUNS. Now there will be a media frenzy again about banning more guns; just what we need. Weather or not the sledders were being stupid etc is not the issue. Who does the guy think he is? Uncle Jesse?

I agree that the farmer should have never carried a gun with him, however I disagree completely with you saying that the sledders being stupid is not the issue. Trespassing probably causes the most confrontations in our outdoors and has become one of the biggest evils of the outdoors.

If the sledders had never trespassed to begin with (broke the law), and you can not discount this, the confrontation would never have happened. THE SLEDDERS INIATED THE CONFRONTATION BY TRESPASSING, that is the issue, and always will be when ever anyone trespasses!!!!

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

here is your answer Citizen’s Arrest

he had just trespassed on his property and then his neighbor

also as posters have said guns on snowmobilers is common

David

Canada[edit]

Federal[edit]

Canada's blanket arrest authorities for crimes or violations of federal statutes are found in the Criminal Code. In Canada, a criminal offence is any offence that is created by a federal statute -- there are no provincial "crimes".

Criminal offences are divided into three groups: Indictable, Dual Procedure, and Summary Conviction. For the purposes of arrest, dual procedure offences are considered to be indictable.

The Criminal Code provisions related to citizen arrests were changed in 2012, by the Citizen’s Arrest and Self-defence Act.[11] As a consequence, it is now possible to make a citizen's arrest in Canada in circumstances where a "reasonable" amount of time has lapsed between the commission of a property-related offence and the arrest.[12]


CRIMINAL CODE[13]


Arrest without warrant by any person
494. (1) Any one may arrest without warrant
(a) a person whom he finds committing an indictable offence; or(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes (i) has committed a criminal offence, and(ii) is escaping from and freshly pursued by persons who have lawful authority to arrest that person.

Arrest by owner, etc., of property
(2) The owner or a person in lawful possession of property, or a person authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of property, may arrest a person without a warrant if they find them committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property and
(a) they make the arrest at that time; or(b) they make the arrest within a reasonable time after the offence is committed and they believe on reasonable grounds that it is not feasible in the circumstances for a peace officer to make the arrest.
Delivery to peace officer
(3) Any one other than a peace officer who arrests a person without warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.

For greater certainty
(4) For greater certainty, a person who is authorized to make an arrest under this section is a person who is authorized by law to do so for the purposes of section 25.

Provincial[edit]

There are several arrest authorities found through the various provincial statutes. The most notable citizen's arrest authority in Ontario is found in the Trespass to Property Act, but there are others found in the Highway Traffic Act, the Liquor Licence Act, and many others.


TRESPASS TO PROPERTY ACT[14]


Arrest without warrant on premises
9. (1) A police officer, or the occupier of premises, or a person authorized by the occupier may arrest without warrant any person he or she believes on reasonable and probable grounds to be on the premises in contravention of section 2.Delivery to police officer

(2) Where the person who makes an arrest under subsection (1) is not a police officer, he or she shall promptly call for the assistance of a police officer and give the person arrested into the custody of the police officer.

Might want to take another look at the situation and exactly what those particular laws mean and how they realte or do not relate to one another before jumping to that conclusion and end up buying yourself a world of hurt.


The salient point being that for one... the "trespassers" never broke the law.
Mere presence does not constitute a criminal trespass.

The guy stated that as soon as he realized that he was on someone elses property...he left or attempted to.

No guilty mind... no intent...no guilty act ....NO CRIME.

He is therefore as guilty of trespassing as a guy that turns his truck around in your driveway.

[Iskra]

Since when it is prohibited to carry a rifle on a crown or your own land? Farmer did not point or threatened anybody with use of his gun. Trespassers were intimidated with farmers legal possession of a firearm and they hope to score with antis.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by Iskra

Since when it is prohibited to carry a rifle on a crown or your own land? Farmer did not point or threatened anybody with use of his gun. Trespassers were intimidated with farmers legal possession of a firearm and they hope to score with antis.

I would agree with you if he had been walking along hunting when he confronted them. When you get out of a vehicle and walk up to someone, carrying a gun, and in a bit of an aggressive manner, it can really escalate an already tense situation. Sledders definitely trying to deflect their INITIAL wrong doing by concentrating on the gun for sure. The fact that the farmer chose to give the sledder a little tuneup to the side of the head with his hand, and not use the gun, would suggest he had no intention of using the gun.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Might want to take another look at the situation and exactly what those particular laws mean and how they realte or do not relate to one another before jumping to that conclusion and end up buying yourself a world of hurt.


The salient point being that for one... the "trespassers" never broke the law.
Mere presence does not constitute a criminal trespass.

The guy stated that as soon as he realized that he was on someone elses property...he left or attempted to.

No guilty mind... no intent...no guilty act ....NO CRIME.

He is therefore as guilty of trespassing as a guy that turns his truck around in your driveway.

Have you ever, even once, heard a trespasser say they knew they were trespassing, there answer is always the same "I never knew", as if that is suppose to be a valid reason for trespassing. The real reason for most trespassing, is not that they don't know, it is that they don't care!!

I am not saying the guy didn't know, but that is the problem in it self, I am sorry but it is your responsibility to know, if you don't know, you don't go.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Have you ever, even once, heard a trespasser say they knew they were trespassing, there answer is always the same "I never knew", as if that is suppose to be a valid reason for trespassing. The real reason for most trespassing, is not that they don't know, it is that they don't care!!

I am not saying the guy didn't know, but that is the problem in it self, I am sorry but it is your responsibility to know, if you don't know, you don't go.

So are we to believe only the part of the mans testimony that serves the landowners purposes then?

The guy admitted that he made a mistake Bob and last time I checked... a landowners right to protect his property did not trump everyone right to make an honest mistake and the benefit of the doubt.

As for the argument that guys should know where they are...I agree but...there is a world of difference between should and must.

Its pretty easy for locals to measure others with their stick but it is not right to do so.

If I had a dime for every guy with farm plates that asked me for directions in Edmonton... despite road signs...maps in every gas station...GPS's... they still get turned around.

Same thing happens to folks when they venture out your way.

Some folks get lost or confused pretty easy... it's unfortunate but not necessarily their fault.

Course I guess I could just assume that they should stay home since it is their responsibility to know and not mine.
While we are on that...who says?
Who says that a traveler has more responsibility to know where they are than a landowner does to be reasonable?

Besides Bob... most folks do not actually set out to get lost....it sort of just happens...usually when folks think they know where they are but are mistaken.
Again... its a failure but not a fault... the individual tried to live up to their reponsability but was unable to for whatever reason.

The landowner cannot make the same claim in this case...can he?

Since trespass by definition basically requires for-knowledge I would agree that the bulk of it is intentional. I would also agree that those people do not care.
I suspect that had that been the case we would not have heard about this though and... it does not excuse rushing up on people waving a gun about.
We can't assume that every guy that enters our property THAT guy.

And again... that is not the case here since no trespass by definition took place.... conditions were different when it occurred and they simply made a bad turn and left once they realized it.
Happens all the time.

I'd like to add... I finally saw the video... and its pretty clear that old boy threatened them by the display of arms, his language and gestures. He also pointed that gun at least once and had it at the ready.
He then struck one of them while armed.

My thought is...he is cooked.
He'll be lucky if he only gets a summary conviction on this one.

He should have kept that thing slung, at his side or in the truck.

[Ruger1022]

Maybe Farmer Billy the Kid should have armed himself with a camera instead of a Friggen shotgun. Take video/pictures of the area and the offenders license plates and report them. This farmer fella sure is lucky he didn't get his manure stomped. Some people really dont take kindly to being threatend with a firearm. Really a friggin shotgun, good way to end up DEAD.

The Snowmobilers were douches too for being where I can only assume they shouldn't have been.

[leeaspell]

Originally Posted by Ruger1022

Maybe Farmer Billy the Kid should have armed himself with a camera instead of a Friggen shotgun. Take video/pictures of the area and the offenders license plates and report them. This farmer fella sure is lucky he didn't get his manure stomped. Some people really dont take kindly to being threatend with a firearm. Really a friggin shotgun, good way to end up DEAD.

The Snowmobilers were douches too for being where I can only assume they shouldn't have been.

Not just any shotgun, a combat shotgun. That makes it even more scary

[pdog15]

An unfortunate happening which has all the markings of a lose-lose-lose-lose situation.

The landowner loses by bringing a firearm to the conflict and striking a snowmobiler (particularly when carrying a firearm). Apparently these are "facts" (behaviors) not likely to be in dispute - never mind what was said verbally by any of the parties at the time. Who is to guess what is "in the minds" of any of the parties? It seems that a person or persons have chosen to take it to the media/law enforcement and it was not likely the landowner.

Firearms owners lose big time because of the landowner's behavior. The media and the anti's combined with the Liberals/Red Tories both in and out of law enforcement are bound to make things difficult for firearms owners at large in the future. Another straw on the load, so to speak.

The snowmobilers probably lose. Hunter's are held by law to very high standards to know where they are hunting and that where they are hunting is legally open to hunting. Surely snowmobilers should be held to the same standards in terms of where they run their machines. Private land is just that - private - and without permission, trespassers should be held to account - particularly if they are doing damage and/or riding machines all over the property at will and basically thumbing their noses at the landowner. Most all landowners are pretty capable of distinguishing those who are perhaps disoriented/seeking a little direction, etc. from those who are wilfully being more than bothersome and will be reasonable. These two snowmobilers are likely to verbalize/do whatever they can to avoid taking any responsibility. Just because they verbalized a line of defense, does this mean landowners and/or the justice system must believe what they say. Of course not. Getting into what is "in the mind" is a very slippery slope. Apparently these two have chosen to go to the media/law enforcement with pics/video etc. to support their own verbalizations that they have done nothing wrong and are the victims in all of this. In the end it may well come back to bite them.

The snowmobiling/ATV communities at large are going to be losers in this as well based on the actions/words of these two snowmobilers. They didn't have to choose to settle things the way they did and these communities at large will probably pay a price for how these two have chosen to pursue their case. This situation will do nothing but further inflame the negative feelings between outdoors people and land owners. If the legal people continue to negate the rights of landowners in favor of what others can do as regards the landowners personal property - as it seems they are bent on doing - this is going to further infuriate landowners to the point where permissions of access will become even tighter. For the most part, snowmobilers/ATVers know full well where property if likely to be private and if they opt not to contact those who would seem to be the landowners, then they do so at their own peril. Ignorance is no excuse (read defense) for breaking most laws nor should it be any different for these two groups.

It seems to be in the hands of the legal system now so there is not much use in speculating further.

[elkhunter11]

Its pretty easy for locals to measure others with their stick but it is not right to do so.

Why not? I am usually not at all local where I hunt, yet I go to the effort of purchasing landowner maps, so that I know who owns the land in the area. A snowmobiler could just as easily obtain a landowner map, but most simply don't care whose land they trespass on.

If I had a dime for every guy with farm plates that asked me for directions in Edmonton... despite road signs...maps in every gas station...GPS's... they still get turned around.

Being lost on a street that belongs to the city, is not the same as trespassing on private property. One is legal, the other isn't.

[norwestalta]

Ignorance is a poor excuse for trespassing. Just because it's not fenced or posted doesn'tgive anybody the right to access. I don't know what it's like in sask but around my area it is pretty easy to tell deeded land to crown land.

[brownbomber]

Being a rural person if I had a dime for every time I asked for directions in edmonton I would have 40 cents.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by brownbomber

Being a rural person if I had a dime for every time I asked for directions in edmonton I would have 40 cents.

No doubt not a money making proposition. Maybe what's his name is a window washer that gives out directions.

[58thecat]

The so called land owner got lucky there, confront the wrong guys and blood would have been spilled, he should have just called the authorities, two wrongs don't make a right, might have been looking for a body. A post a few weeks ago shows how quick a handgun can knock down a moose....gets you thinking eh?

[norwestalta]

Would the towneys not be upset if I parked in their parking spot at the apartment they live in.?