NOT a CCW thread

[260 Rem]

Years ago, a son and his step son arrived at our house about 3:00AM after completing a job at a site in the area. They came in the house and bedded down in the ground level walk-out. My wife heard the movement and I was on them quickly with the baseball bat from under my bed. I recall standing with the bat raised above the boy on the couch. Really glad I didn't have a gun in my hand.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

I wasn't home when it happened, which made it worse. My wife and then infant child were home alone, fast asleep. Some guy, hopped up on who knows what, started beating on our front door at 1 am. My wife yelled at him in no uncertain terms that he was at the wrong house. This only enraged him more, and he started knocking with his boots.

Luckily, her first call was to the neighbor, who promptly came out with his German Shepard and confronted the guy. 911 was called immedeatly after. The guy made an attempt to get physical with the neighbor, which the dog deterred, and then they shouted back and forth for a few minutes before he left the area.

The police finally made their appearance a full 20 minutes after the initial 911 call. This was in the city, so no 'rural detachment' excuse.


I shudder to think what might be different today if we didn't have a neighbor who was home, and who answered that phone call. My wife and child would have been left defenseless in a home that contained plenty of legal firearms, thanks to Canadian law.

This is why I asked this discussion take CCW out of the equation. Why can't we keep a pistol in the nightstand, or a shotgun in the closet, in an 'at the ready' condition?

I thing gust covered the" at the ready"
is opening my safe to grab a pistol any differnt than opening a drawer imo it is just one action . Iirc even a unrestricted firearm cant be stored in a loaded state.

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Recce - sounds like it worked out OK with no injuries. Personally, I would not have traded the dog and the shotgun for a handgun. Lucky your armed intruder didn't hurt your dog either. Can you tell us how the situation would have played differently with a handgun?

If people were allowed to keep a handgun in the nightstand, might be alot less trying to kick doors in at 1am, knowing that if they do get that door kicked in that some po'ed homeowner might be on the other side greeting them......Its a deterent.

[220swifty]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

My bottom line regarding carry in "public places" is that I am not concerned about criminals or wild animals ---my concern is more about the potential for "normal" folks to get silly if they have a bad day, get a bit impared, take exception to my driving..... My world is not a scary place, but I would be uncomfortable with the idea that anyone can pack anywhere. Sorry, but of thousands of students I've seen go through school, I know there are some pretty unpredictable folks out there.
I have no issue with folks using any legal firearm on their own property.

Do you tremble in fear when you head down to a busy gun range? No? Why not? It's full of 'Joe public' with guns. What makes that experience different for you?

I'm not advocating the removal of all restrictions on firearms ownership and carry, but rather saying 'a gun is a gun is a gun'. What makes me trustworthy enough to legally drive around with an unloaded mini-14 beside me and a loaded mag in the cup holder, and why isn't that trust extended to allow me to plink on crown land with my Single Six?

I can't say I have too many logical arguments about the licensing and purchasing regulations in this country, but if you can satisfy the requirements, why can't you store and use your own property as you see fit (within reason, compromising the safety and health of others is still a no-no)

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Years ago, a son and his step son arrived at our house about 3:00AM after completing a job at a site in the area. They came in the house and bedded down in the ground level walk-out. My wife heard the movement and I was on them quickly with the baseball bat from under my bed. I recall standing with the bat raised above the boy on the couch. Really glad I didn't have a gun in my hand.

If it was a firearm you'd be advised to keep the muzzle down and finger off the trigger until you've determined if the intruder is a threat. Simply drilling oneself in safe handling habits takes care of that, and don't have the pistol all by its lonesome, keep a powerful little flashlight next to it. I'd not recommend anyone have a firearm 'at the ready' unless they've established such basic safe handling habits. The light is obviously fine to point at friend or foe, and at night can even disorient them when pointed at their eyes.

[recce43]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Recce - sounds like it worked out OK with no injuries. Personally, I would not have traded the dog and the shotgun for a handgun. Lucky your armed intruder didn't hurt your dog either. Can you tell us how the situation would have played differently with a handgun?

for one my shotgun was in a closet behind stuff with trigger lock .. if i could have a hand gun in my dresser in one of those safe that goes off of your finger print access would have been mutch faster or even if it was a keyed lock access would be faster . cause I was lying in bed when this happened ..

[expmler]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Perhaps the "new angle" mentioned by 220 should include some discussion of our day-to-day realities.
My reality, which is only based on 67 years is that I was never confronted by a criminal with a gun. The closest I have been to mass shooting is about 8 ft in front of my TV. I have never been threatened or injured by a dangerous animal in the wild, but my neighbors dogs have barked at me...never thought I would need to shoot them.
My bottom line regarding carry in "public places" is that I am not concerned about criminals or wild animals ---my concern is more about the potential for "normal" folks to get silly if they have a bad day, get a bit impared, take exception to my driving..... My world is not a scary place, but I would be uncomfortable with the idea that anyone can pack anywhere. Sorry, but of thousands of students I've seen go through school, I know there are some pretty unpredictable folks out there.
I have no issue with folks using any legal firearm on their own property.

I have never had my catch fire, but I still have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers.
Have you been injured by a person having a bad day, a little impaired, or takes exception to your driving.

If not, why do you think because someone has a gun they would shoot you for the above reasons.

It seems that many here that don't agree with CCW think that the people who would like that choice are some kind of dangerous person that is looking to kill somebody and the only thing stopping them is not having a gun handy.

[CaberTosser]

The one I posted can be purchased just using the 4-finger keypad, or also with a biometric fingerprint activated lock.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Years ago, a son and his step son arrived at our house about 3:00AM after completing a job at a site in the area. They came in the house and bedded down in the ground level walk-out. My wife heard the movement and I was on them quickly with the baseball bat from under my bed. I recall standing with the bat raised above the boy on the couch. Really glad I didn't have a gun in my hand.

If you didn't hit him with the bat, why would you shoot him.

[recce43]

I wonder what have happened if i was night home that night . If I was deployed somewhere

[220swifty]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

I thing gust covered the" at the ready"
is opening my safe to grab a pistol any differnt than opening a drawer imo it is just one action . Iirc even a unrestricted firearm cant be stored in a loaded state.

It's one action, but in our house, it requires you traveling the furthest distance possible in the building, unlocking a door, and remembering a combination under duress, then entering said combo when you are full of adrenaline and might have issues with fine motor skills.

If the house has already been breached when you realize you need to defend yourself, you are now hooped. You have to cross paths with the perp before you are ready to deal with him. As an ex-military man, you have to agree, this is a major tactical error.


I also want to be clear, I'm not looking at home defense as a 'hunt and kill' operation, but rather 'fall back and defend'. My wife asked me after the incident I shared earlier 'what if I was armed, then what, I don't want to kill anyone'. I told her that she would be safest to get our daughter out of bed, then barricade herself in a room, with the gun trained on the door and the police on the phone. If the door is breeched, then shoot to kill.

[leeaspell]

What if you always slept with it in a holster? Would that be considered in use, not storage?

[1000yards]

I have some great birdshot rounds in 22 and 9mm, mostly for fun right now, but if snakes were more of a hazard in my daily life, a revolver on the hip would be a lot easier then a rifle to carry all day.

I don't think Canada is ready to just jump into a overnight change into allowing pistols everywhere, even of only in the hands of the responsible. More education and anti brain washing would need to be done to try and remove the fear that the media has instilled.
With a effective training course, with a one time one year follow up evaluation, I think concealed carry could make its way into our society.

That being said, a lot more legislation needs to be changed before hand, and takes prescidence in my opinion. I think a lot of castle laws go too far, and don't think someone should lose thier life for a tv theft.
In the more rural setting I would see this as a great opportunity to show the main public that having a small firearm does not make you a murderer, and being able to show 45,000 farmers that have carried on thier property have not gone on any sprees would be a good start in changing the minds of the sheeple

[expmler]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

It's one action, but in our house, it requires you traveling the furthest distance possible in the building, unlocking a door, and remembering a combination under duress, then entering said combo when you are full of adrenaline and might have issues with fine motor skills.

If the house has already been breached when you realize you need to defend yourself, you are now hooped. You have to cross paths with the perp before you are ready to deal with him. As an ex-military man, you have to agree, this is a major tactical error.


I also want to be clear, I'm not looking at home defense as a 'hunt and kill' operation, but rather 'fall back and defend'. My wife asked me after the incident I shared earlier 'what if I was armed, then what, I don't want to kill anyone'. I told her that she would be safest to get our daughter out of bed, then barricade herself in a room, with the gun trained on the door and the police on the phone. If the door is breeched, then shoot to kill.

That is the biggest problem with the CCW\home defence debate, The people against it don't seem to understand that to use the gun is a last resort.

They seem to think that you would come running out of your bedroom guns blazing, or that every minor difference on the street would end up in a gun fight.
Waitress got my order wrong, driver honked his horn at me, buddy bumped into me, someone cut in line time to reach for my gun.

[220swifty]

Originally Posted by leeaspell

What if you always slept with it in a holster? Would that be considered in use, not storage?

If you sleep on your strong side, it's considered 'uncomfortable'

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

If you sleep on your strong side, it's considered 'uncomfortable'

Use a chest rig, then you can sleep on either side or your back!

Don't forget a back-up in an ankle rig

[bison]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

I wasn't home when it happened, which made it worse. My wife and then infant child were home alone, fast asleep. Some guy, hopped up on who knows what, started beating on our front door at 1 am. My wife yelled at him in no uncertain terms that he was at the wrong house. This only enraged him more, and he started knocking with his boots.

Luckily, her first call was to the neighbor, who promptly came out with his German Shepard and confronted the guy. 911 was called immedeatly after. The guy made an attempt to get physical with the neighbor, which the dog deterred, and then they shouted back and forth for a few minutes before he left the area.

The police finally made their appearance a full 20 minutes after the initial 911 call. This was in the city, so no 'rural detachment' excuse.


I shudder to think what might be different today if we didn't have a neighbor who was home, and who answered that phone call. My wife and child would have been left defenseless in a home that contained plenty of legal firearms, thanks to Canadian law.

This is why I asked this discussion take CCW out of the equation. Why can't we keep a pistol in the nightstand, or a shotgun in the closet, in an 'at the ready' condition?

You can keep one legally right beside your bed,..its called "in use" when you're at home.

[wags]

Originally Posted by 1000yards

I have some great birdshot rounds in 22 and 9mm, mostly for fun right now, but if snakes were more of a hazard in my daily life, a revolver on the hip would be a lot easier then a rifle to carry all day.

I don't think Canada is ready to just jump into a overnight change into allowing pistols everywhere, even of only in the hands of the responsible. More education and anti brain washing would need to be done to try and remove the fear that the media has instilled.
With a effective training course, with a one time one year follow up evaluation, I think concealed carry could make its way into our society.

That being said, a lot more legislation needs to be changed before hand, and takes prescidence in my opinion. I think a lot of castle laws go too far, and don't think someone should lose thier life for a tv theft.
In the more rural setting I would see this as a great opportunity to show the main public that having a small firearm does not make you a murderer, and being able to show 45,000 farmers that have carried on thier property have not gone on any sprees would be a good start in changing the minds of the sheeple

So what about those of us that think for ourselves, form our own thoughts, come to our own conclusions that are different than yours? Your anti brainwashing tactics will fall short. Calling me names and insulting my intelligence will never go anywhere in changing my mind, or the minds of these sheeple you speak of (don't actually know any myself).

Presenting logical arguments to support your cause, in a level headed manner, as swifty has done, is the approach that would likely server you better. Because of people saying things like you have, you'll never see guns on your hip in this country. Arguments like swifty and others have presented, might allow you to carry in the bush for protection from cats, dogs bears...or even sheep, or use on your own land/protection at home.

Cheers

[wildwoods]

This is exactly what I had in mind in a previous thread. Class them all the same.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by bison

You can keep one legally right beside your bed,..its called "in use" when you're at home.

I bet you would be charged with unsafe storage. It is illegal to use a handgun anywhere but an approved range.

[bison]

Originally Posted by expmler

I bet you would be charged with unsafe storage. It is illegal to use a handgun anywhere but an approved range.

Who was talking about a handgun???
I thought i quoted a shot gun.

AFAIK gun storage laws don't apply when the owner is at home cause one can claim they are "in use"

[expmler]

Originally Posted by bison

Who was talking about a handgun???
I thought i quoted a shot gun.

AFAIK gun storage laws don't apply when the owner is at home cause one can claim they are "in use"

My mistake.

I know you can have a firearm readily available if you a farmer to protect your livestock but not self defence.

In the city I think it is a different story. I would bet if a child got a hold of the shotgun and injured someone or himself you would be charged with unsafe storage.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by expmler

My mistake.

I know you can have a firearm readily available if you a farmer to protect your livestock but not self defence.

In the city I think it is a different story. I would bet if a child got a hold of the shotgun and injured someone or himself you would be charged with unsafe storage.

Get some pet goats, now you're an inner-city rancher! Obviously the chicken option has already been legislated away.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Get some pet goats, now you're an inner-city rancher! Obviously the chicken option has already been legislated away.

I would have no problem with that, don't know about your neighbors though.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by Heavy

Coming from a small farming community in Northern Ontario with a family History in North America (Canada and The USA) dating back to the 1600s. Ancestors brought to this country as Mercenaries from Scotland and Ireland by England. Hessian mercenaries brought to the USA by the English I take extreme exception to your view of this countries division and history! Ontario is judged by the polotics of Toronto and other Urban centers not an accurate reflection of rural Ontario with out this history in warfare and the use of firearms you would still be in Europe possibly living in Tyranny.
Instead of dividing this into an East VS. West thing we would be better served searching out the like minded there is enough problems with Unity in this country with out searching out more opponents.

Careful. My ancestors come from both sides of the Atlantic, and fought wars with and without firearms.

I didn't mean it as anything personal or strictly an east vs west thing; though there certainly is a element of that involved in any political discussion, as you admitted, due to eastern urban population numbers. more an example of the monstrous historical and cultural gap between the two groups. British nanny state vs new world freedom. Oil vs water. Fish gunner vs red frog. Just ain't gonna change either side anytime soon.

[leeaspell]

Originally Posted by expmler

My mistake.

I know you can have a firearm readily available if you a farmer to protect your livestock but not self defence.

In the city I think it is a different story. I would bet if a child got a hold of the shotgun and injured someone or himself you would be charged with unsafe storage.

I got one head of dog and 2 head of cat on my acerage, and the one cat is knocked up so ot will soon be calfin/kittining season. Does that qualify me as a farmer?

[260 Rem]

I am fortunate that I have never lived in fear of a break-in. And, would never want to be put in a high pressure situation where I would become the judge in determining if someone was to live or die because they broke into my house. I understand the wide range of opinions related to the defence of one's castle, but never considered the penalty for B&E to be death by gunshot. Nor, do I believe that guns, knives, or baseball bats are deterents against a drugged up, drunk, or a crazy with bad intentions.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by leeaspell

I got one head of dog and 2 head of cat on my acerage, and the one cat is knocked up so ot will soon be calfin/kittining season. Does that qualify me as a farmer?

No. Farmers grow crops. You are a rancher. A kitty rancher. by the sounds of it.

[leeaspell]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I am fortunate that I have never lived in fear of a break-in. And, would never want to be put in a high pressure situation where I would become the judge in determining if someone was to live or die because they broke into my house. I understand the wide range of opinions related to the defence of one's castle, but never considered the penalty for B&E to be death by gunshot. Nor, do I believe that guns, knives, or baseball bats are deterents against a drugged up, drunk, or crazy with bad intentions.

But when does a simple B&E become a home invasion or a murder. I personally don't want to let it go that far. You break in to my house, obviously you didn't come to bring me coffee and a box of Tim bits. I don't live in fear of it happening, I also don't live in fear of a lot of things, but I have plans for if it does occur. In my opinion, you see ot on the news way to much, a B&E gone wrong, home owners killed when robber discovers homeowners are still home.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I am fortunate that I have never lived in fear of a break-in. And, would never want to be put in a high pressure situation where I would become the judge in determining if someone was to live or die because they broke into my house. I understand the wide range of opinions related to the defence of one's castle, but never considered the penalty for B&E to be death by gunshot. Nor, do I believe that guns, knives, or baseball bats are deterents against a drugged up, drunk, or a crazy with bad intentions.

I had my truck stolen out of my yard. When the cops caught up with them, they had a loaded gun in the truck. The keys were in the truck, but if they had broken into the house to get the keys I wouldn't have waited to find out what their intentions were.