Crossbows, to be or not to be

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Why is it that people with " shoulder problems " and get " doctors notes " because they can't pull a bow........ are ok to draw a xgun?

The Excalibur 380 is 260lb without the cocking aid and 130 lb with the aid for example. Dividing the 130 by 2 for each arm, it cames to just roughly 65 pounds per arm... the legal requirement to hunt with a bow in Alberta is only 40 lbs...... i believe the requirements for a xgun are 100lbs..... or 50 per arm.

I guess why i ask is; i see alot guys who have so called injuries, loading xguns without aids in archery shops and sometimes in the field too...

-We already have seasons that allow for xguns.
- we already have provisions for handi cap and legitimate disabled hunters to use them.
- we dont have 1,000,000 whitetail like the states
-we dont have huge population density like the states
- we have way more important game than just whitetails unlike most of the states.

Potty, Potty, Potty. I'm afraid that if you don't understand the mechanics of a crossbow, you'd never understand the mechanics of the human body.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by deerguy

No. If 30% of people archery hunt then 30% of the tags will go into archery draws, that's not saying that those archers will all choose to enter archery draws. If you need to wait 8 or more years chances are you will pick the rifle. So yes, draw times will increase for Rifle hunters as archery hunters will get more tags, but the amount of Archery guys that will put points in for archery will not increase substantially,mom it shouldn't atleast. Also, 5 rifle tags does not equate to 5 new archery tags, Archery success is substantially lower so if 10 tags leave rifle 15-20 tags enter the archery pool.

The bolded comments are wrong.

There is no mechanism within Alberta big game policies that direct a proportional allocation based on a user groups percentage of participants. The ABA President stated in the recent past that the association is NOT seeking to have the archery allocation increased if the percentage of archery hunters continues to grow. They would rather accept the option of having general seasons go to a draw.


Currently, resident licence numbers for most archery draw seasons are based on the total success rate for all weapons.


If F&W is expected to transfer harvest quota to a bowhunting season due to an increase in participation, then shouldn't the reverse action also apply?

Example, all general archery seasons exist because the harvest quota is not being met. Following your logic, In these instances where there is a general archery season and a draw general weapon season in a particular wmu, the unused archery allocation should be transferred to the general weapon season.

[pottymouth]

Wow that was long and useless.

We used weight calipers to draw xguns today....hence my question. ... drawing a 40 lb bow by far used less muscle power. As for holding a bow drawn.... that might might be your only valid point.... but all good things do come to an end.

I've broken both my arms, wrists, elbow, clavicles, multiple dislocations , sternum,ribs....nevermind my muscle and ligament injuries. The last week of the season i hunted with a partial left arm seperation and 3 broken ribs.... i still manged to hunt and even pull my 85 lbs bow back.... but im a kinda guy that wont give up.

But one day i know i wont be able to bow hunt.... i will smile, and enjoy rifle hunting for once.... nothing is forever...... and any true bowhunter would never accept an alternative like an xgun.....jmo

Lefty made a valid point, and i agree with his point 100%



Dave i understand mechanics well..... and the body better than most . Also you need to use more than your arms Dave to pull a bow..... maybe its you who doesn't understand bows or the human body?????

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Well Potty, I'll bite. This is all stuff I've posted in the past in these discussions (that all take the same form).

I love(d) hunting with my 59 lb draw recurve - 59 lbs due to my draw length. Several years ago I developed elbow issues and along with ancient shoulder problems (due to a dislocation when I was in my early 20's) I couldn't draw it properly anymore. I keep working on trying to rectify that, but every time I'm getting back into form something else knocks me back again; I'm starting to think my age (now 60) is conspiring against me! So as much as I am not a fan of compounds I tried then on for size. Guess what - I couldn't draw them either, at least not more than once or twice - not enough to become reasonably proficient with then. But as I said, they are not my 'cup of tea'.

So I went to the crossbow - recurve - Excalibur - because they intrigue me just like old shotguns and rifles appeal to Cat, blackpowder muzzleloaders (flintlocks and cap) appeal to others, and handguns appeal to others. I just think recurve crossbows are kinda cool and interesting, and I enjoy the challenge of hunting with them.

I can, with the cocking aid, fairly easily draw my crossbow which is 175 lbs, but I can't hold it drawn. So having it lock in is great! Why can I draw it? Well, if you knew anything real about crossbows you'd know the draw action is much different. Much more of your body is involved. One foot holds the stirrup down and draw is achieved using the legs, back, shoulders and arms. Note that it is considerably shorter draw length than 29 inches too. Mine is about half of that. So drawing and cocking the crossbow is completely unlike drawing vertical bows.

And it is true that if one can shoot a firearm one can learn to shoot a crossbow - WITHIN ITS LIMITS - fairly proficiently too, but that does require proper understanding of the tool and how to draw it consistently (Hmm, kinda like a vertical bow). Once one knows how to do that one can become proficient rather quickly - but that is within effective ranges - where a compound has a very distinct advantage as technology advances in that part of the archery world. For my crossbow the limit is 40 yards, 45 in absolute optimal conditions. My personal limit for my recurve is 25 yards.
When my buddy got a compound I tried it out, why not? (That was back long before I got my crossbow.) Within 15 minutes I was nearly as proficient with it as with my crossbow at 40 yards, but I was also 'good enough' to comfortably shoot at 60 yards! That's a full third longer range, and I would never even consider shooting my crossbow at a quarry animal at that range. Now I understand there are manufacturers of compounds touting 3 inch groups at 100 yards! That's insane for the 'average' shooter! As far as range goes, compounds are leaving crossbows in the dust. So, since it is pretty clear that they are superior to crossbows, why the fear of crossbows?

Note also that it takes a lot of full body motion to draw and cock a crossbow to load an arrow/bolt in place, therefore lots of movement. So the ABA and ilk's argument that there is less movement with a crossbow is a lot of bunk (to put it politely). Unless an animal comes in perfectly and stops in the perfect place for a shot, the crossbow shooter has to do at least the same movement that an vertical bow does! Furthermore, from a tree-stand there are shots a vertical archer can take via re-positioning that a crossbow shooter simply can't do because of the unwieldiness of the crossbow. I know, I've used them for many, many years and have had to pass on shots because the animal wasn't in a location I could capitalize on - but I could have taken the shot with my recurve! The same holds largely true for ground blinds.

Of course, here in Alberta where I live and hunt I can use my crossbow for nearly three months anyway .
In Ontario, where I hunted, if crossbows fell under the same archaic rules as here in Alberta, I would only be able to use my crossbow for, depending on hunt and zone, 5 days, 1 week, or 2 weeks.
Ontario's deer population is probably still less than Alberta's combined whitetail and mule deer population. When I first started hunting in my home zone there were no white tail deer seasons! Now they are spread all over the south and near north from Manitoba to Quebec and the population is healthy. Ontario has far more people population too - and far more hunters. Many have picked up and use crossbows - NOT TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE DEER HERD, nor the moose herd or bear numbers (but those are other stories of grave mismanagement). Oh, and there are also elk herds growing and with a limited hunt. And there are turkeys, many use crossbows effectively for them - due to the type of hunting that entails. And the turkey population is doing just fine.

So, methinks you like to spout off on that which you do not know, nor really care to know, but your anti crossbow bias prevents you from seeking truth

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Wow that was long and useless.

We used weight calipers to draw xguns today....hence my question. ... drawing a 40 lb bow by far used less muscle power. As for holding a bow drawn.... that might might be your only valid point.... but all good things do come to an end.

I've broken both my arms, wrists, elbow, clavicles, multiple dislocations , sternum,ribs....nevermind my muscle and ligament injuries. The last week of the season i hunted with a partial left arm seperation and 3 broken ribs.... i still manged to hunt and even pull my bow back.... but im a kinda guy that wont give up.

But one day i know i wont be able to bow hunt.... i will smile, and enjoy rifle hunting for once.... nothing is forever...... and any true bowhunter would never accept an alternative like an xgun.....jmo

Gotta respect a guy that breaks his ribs after slipping on his dress, then goes hunting.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Gotta respect a guy that breaks his ribs after slipping on his dress, then goes hunting.

Not his...... " A " .

Man im tired of listening to people in this province make up excuses why they can hunt, work, make money etc.... you can hunt from sept 17 to about dec 12 with an xgun thats about 85 days.... go hunt. Dont worry about the 20 days you cant..... geez

If its that important start your own association. ...dont bash another for not wanting you in theirs..... ps...im now going to join the aba for once...just because you xgun supporters hate them....

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Hell, the traditional archers put up with the compound shooters in their archery season and the patched round ball guys gave to put up with inclines, what 's the big issue with crossbows in an archery season?
Fear if too many hunters in " their " season?
Cat

Well said cat, and 100 percent right.

Been through the muzzleloading thing many years ago, no biggie, after all we are all hunters some just seem to forget that!

[deerguy]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

The bolded comments are wrong.

There is no mechanism within Alberta big game policies that direct a proportional allocation based on a user groups percentage of participants. The ABA President stated in the recent past that the association is NOT seeking to have the archery allocation increased if the percentage of archery hunters continues to grow. They would rather accept the option of having general seasons go to a draw.


Currently, resident licence numbers for most archery draw seasons are based on the total success rate for all weapons.


If F&W is expected to transfer harvest quota to a bowhunting season due to an increase in participation, then shouldn't the reverse action also apply?

Example, all general archery seasons exist because the harvest quota is not being met. Following your logic, In these instances where there is a general archery season and a draw general weapon season in a particular wmu, the unused archery allocation should be transferred to the general weapon season.

I sent of an Email, we'll see what the response is. It would make perfect sense to match Archery draw tag % to archery permits bought, if 30 % of people Archery hunt then the allowable Haevest in a WMU for archery hunters should also go up to 30%.

[58thecat]

Just sent an email to the constituency office. 2016 crossbows will be in the archery season
Don Cherry will speak about it this Saturday night on coaches corner too

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Well said cat, and 100 percent right.

Been through the muzzleloading thing many years ago, no biggie, after all we are all hunters some just seem to forget that!

Just for the record , I hunted ( and still do )with stick bows and traditional muzzle loaders for many years on the regular season up here .
I will not, however , hunt with a cross bow or a compound .
Tried the compound thing one and did not like it at all.
Cat

[ont-xbower]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Just sent an email to the constituency office. 2016 crossbows will be in the archery season
Don Cherry will speak about it this Saturday night on coaches corner too

Way to go Alberta.

The freedom to choose your proffered archery tool is priceless.

Now ho much are those non-resident permits??????

[xxclaro]

Originally Posted by ont-xbower

Way to go Alberta.

The freedom to choose your proffered archery tool is priceless.

Now ho much are those non-resident permits??????

Don't get too excited yet, no such decision has actually been made.

[Pincherguy]

Did not think this would go this far, Xbows and politics, and the big bang theory, never to be resolved. My cross bow is extremely hard to cock without a mechanical aid, probably just me. I do use mine in the general season.
As far as hunting and lost game, it all goes to ethics. Long bow and recurve shooters what`s a good range for you, mine was up to 30 yards. Compound shooters, up to 50 yards. Rifle shooters, up to 200 yards. Some of the more proficient shooters could expand these ranges.
I have found lots of wasted animals all shot with different weapons. I have seen guys shoot recurves at ranges up to 100 yards, rifles up to 1000 yards. After 4 or 5 shots the animal walks off, damn I missed and off they go to the next spot. Most never go and check for a hit, mean while the animal is wounded and walks off to die. In a controlled environment long shots can be made, or it you have a spotter the second shot may be made with better results. Too bad hunting situations are not this way, wind and thermal currents have a big effect on the projectile from very little to extreme. Does not matter what you hunt with keep your shots to the range that you are proficient, this is only fair to the animal and will increase your fun in the field. Hunt with what you will but be ethical about how you use it. Oh and yes I have been tempted to make the long shot the same as the rest, but I don`t

NUFF said.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

It is concerning to me that you are so unaware of the regulations in WMU 248 which you hunt.
FYI WMU 248 is the "Edmonton bow zone" where with exception to parts of Strathcona county where a primitive weapons season is in place from October 25th to December 7th only a bow may be used to hunt big game.

Have to admit that I was a little mixed up on the rifle reg. in 248/Strath. You can use a high powered rifle in most of 248, but not for big game. What kind of threw me this year was the fact that some hunters I know got an Antlerless Moose draw in 248. For some reason I figured that this allowed them to have an additional oppurtunity for rifle or shotgun. As it is you can take an Antlered or Antlerless moose with no draw required in 248 with a bow, so why limit yourself to one or the other with a draw? Lefty has posted that the draw allows you to use a xbow, but I don't see that season listed anywhere in the regs. either.
I did think that I had it figured out, but turns out I didn't study carefully enough.

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Have to admit that I was a little mixed up on the rifle reg. in 248/Strath. You can use a high powered rifle in most of 248, but not for big game. What kind of threw me this year was the fact that some hunters I know got an Antlerless Moose draw in 248. For some reason I figured that this allowed them to have an additional oppurtunity for rifle or shotgun. As it is you can take an Antlered or Antlerless moose with no draw required in 248 with a bow, so why limit yourself to one or the other with a draw? Lefty has posted that the draw allows you to use a xbow, but I don't see that season listed anywhere in the regs. either.
I did think that I had it figured out, but turns out I didn't study carefully enough.

The draw allows you to hunt with primitive weapons during the season in the approved area in Strathcona county. Now I haven't looked at it in a few years but believe the draw also allows the use of bow in the rest of 248 and the season.

[Mike_W]

What would the difference be between a cross bow and a smooth bore single shot shotgun besides the projectile and noise?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Have to admit that I was a little mixed up on the rifle reg. in 248/Strath. You can use a high powered rifle in most of 248, but not for big game. What kind of threw me this year was the fact that some hunters I know got an Antlerless Moose draw in 248. For some reason I figured that this allowed them to have an additional oppurtunity for rifle or shotgun. As it is you can take an Antlered or Antlerless moose with no draw required in 248 with a bow, so why limit yourself to one or the other with a draw? Lefty has posted that the draw allows you to use a xbow, but I don't see that season listed anywhere in the regs. either.
I did think that I had it figured out, but turns out I didn't study carefully enough.

There is a antlerless moose special draw which allows shotgun, muzzle loader, bow and arrow or cross bow. You cannot hunt moose with a shotgun, muzzle loader or crossbow WITHOUT THE DRAW.



LC

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

The draw allows you to hunt with primitive weapons during the season in the approved area in Strathcona county. Now I haven't looked at it in a few years but believe the draw also allows the use of bow in the rest of 248 and the season.

Thing is, you are allready allowed to hunt in the approved area in Strath and 248 without having a draw. If you look at the regs. you will see that nowhere does it list a draw season either on the main page or in the additional hunting oppurtunities at the end of the regs for Moose. All I can say is that I mistakenly figured that having a draw gave you an additional oppurtunity to harvest an animal, when it fact it looks like you cut your chance in half by being "Awarded" a draw.
Just looked again and can find no mention of this "draw season" for Xbow use.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Thing is, you are allready allowed to hunt in the approved area in Strath and 248 without having a draw. If you look at the regs. you will see that nowhere does it list a draw season either on the main page or in the additional hunting oppurtunities at the end of the regs for Moose. All I can say is that I mistakenly figured that having a draw gave you an additional oppurtunity to harvest an animal, when it fact it looks like you cut your chance in half by being "Awarded" a draw.
Just looked again and can find no mention of this "draw season" for Xbow use.

You can only shoot one moose.

With the antlerless draw it runs from Oct25-Dec7, the difference is you cannot shoot an antlered moose but you can use a different weapon than a bow, to shoot an antlerless moose.

If you hold a moose tag, you normally must use approved archery equipment, Make sense?

Look at it as an opportunity to use a weapon other than archery equipment during the approved season if you hold the draw. So guys who don't use archery equipment can use another primitive weapon and hunt antlerless moose.

LC

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Thing is, you are allready allowed to hunt in the approved area in Strath and 248 without having a draw. If you look at the regs. you will see that nowhere does it list a draw season either on the main page or in the additional hunting oppurtunities at the end of the regs for Moose. All I can say is that I mistakenly figured that having a draw gave you an additional oppurtunity to harvest an animal, when it fact it looks like you cut your chance in half by being "Awarded" a draw.
Just looked again and can find no mention of this "draw season" for Xbow use.

Lefty, we were typing at the same time. Now I see from your phone app that not only xbow but muzzle and shotgun are allowed during this draw season. This definetly changes things.
I have know found that draw in the draw book, even if it isn't listed in the regs. Wonder why other draws are shown for wmu's with a black square but this one isn't?
I guess they want us to buy new phones and apps. to hunt correctly. lol

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Lefty, we were typing at the same time. Now I see from your phone app that not only xbow but muzzle and shotgun are allowed during this draw season. This definetly changes things.
I have know found that draw in the draw book, even if it isn't listed in the regs. Wonder why other draws are shown for wmu's with a black square but this one isn't?
I guess they want us to buy new phones and apps. to hunt correctly. lol

Earnest....its in the regs! They aren't trying to fool or trick you or force you....

I will post another picture for you....look at the bottom, then go to your regs and read the bottom text it will describe the season with the foot note that applies.

Foot note 3.....I am surprised you are unaware of this, the regs have not changed in many years in how to interpret them.



LC

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

What would the difference be between a cross bow and a smooth bore single shot shotgun besides the projectile and noise?

My personal experiance is that a slug fired from a smooth bore shotgun is VERY inaccurate, esp. past 40 yds. or so. A rifled barrel shotgun shooting sabots on the other hand is quite accurate to 100 yds.
I have never shot a xbow, but my brother hunted with one for a season and hated it. Found it quite cumbersome, and had malfunctions in the field, and this was a new, expensive x-bow.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Earnest....its in the regs! They aren't trying to fool or trick you or force you....

I will post another picture for you....look at the bottom, then go to your regs and read the bottom text it will describe the season with the foot note that applies.

Foot note 3.....I am surprised you are unaware of this, the regs have not changed in many years in how to interpret them.



LC

OMG! A headpalm moment. Must have looked at that section a HUNDRED times and it never registered.

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Earnest....its in the regs! They aren't trying to fool or trick you or force you....

I will post another picture for you....look at the bottom, then go to your regs and read the bottom text it will describe the season with the foot note that applies.

Foot note 3.....I am surprised you are unaware of this, the regs have not changed in many years in how to interpret them.



LC

Foot note
(3) This season is open to hunting only by means of archery, cross-bow, muzzle loader or shotgun.

[IronNoggin]

I'd like to offer a Sincere Apology to Lefty-Canuck for the way I acted and wrote about him on the Excalibur Forum. In retrospect I see that it would be damn difficult to interpret what I wrote as anything but a focused attack on him. That was never my intent, and the single post in question has been edited to remove any such classless ramblings.

Lefty has carried himself largely as a Gentleman throughout this discussion here, and unfortunately I did not elsewhere. For that I am embarrassed, and am taking the steps required to rectify the matter.

I truly have no horse in this race. I can get the permit any time I desire. It's just that having used one for so long now, I tend to get a little too involved when discussions of their inclusion get heated. No excuses, just what happened.

On the topic of this thread, I realize that we will simply have to agree to disagree. Rest assured you will see no further discourteous comments directed towards Lefty or any other who governs themselves and what they post in a courteous manner.

Embarrassed...
Nog

[waterninja]

Don't know what you did on another Forum, but sounds like you truly wish you hadn't, and good on you for manning up.
I think everybody has hit the "Post reply" button when they should'nt have.

[Talking moose]

Iron nogg, classy post.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Thanks for the PM, I appreciate the retraction and I accept your apology.

LC

[Passthru]

[QUOTE=Mike_W;3071693]Well that was a lot to read as a bow and rifle hunter I sit on the fence when it comes to crossbow classification.
I do feel that hunting with a bow is harder for two reasons First and formost is drawing a bow this is typically done as or just before an animal is in range its a large movement and can be noisy, many hunts and stalks are ruined due to the "draw" second kind of ties into the first but it is holding the draw and waiting for a shot this again is tough and can result in spooking an animal if you are forced to let down.
Two major disadvantages that a vertical bow has over a crossbow therefore I feel not only will the number of hunters increase but success rates would increase also IMO.

I agree with this. I would have gotten a much bigger buck this year if I wasn't forced to let down with my compound. 2 bucks hop a fence one after the other. Full draw on the first but was forced to let down because of no ethical shot. Bigger buck behind him saw me let down. Had a staring contest so I couldn't move to get a better shot. He hopped over at the same spot after a while. Draw again but no shot again for the same reason.
Don't care what you use to hunt. Hunting is hard no matter what. Just agreeing with the difference.

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Wow that was long and useless.

We used weight calipers to draw xguns today....hence my question. ... drawing a 40 lb bow by far used less muscle power. As for holding a bow drawn.... that might might be your only valid point.... but all good things do come to an end.

I've broken both my arms, wrists, elbow, clavicles, multiple dislocations , sternum,ribs....nevermind my muscle and ligament injuries. The last week of the season i hunted with a partial left arm seperation and 3 broken ribs.... i still manged to hunt and even pull my 85 lbs bow back.... but im a kinda guy that wont give up.

But one day i know i wont be able to bow hunt.... i will smile, and enjoy rifle hunting for once.... nothing is forever...... and any true bowhunter would never accept an alternative like an xgun.....jmo

Lefty made a valid point, and i agree with his point 100%



Dave i understand mechanics well..... and the body better than most . Also you need to use more than your arms Dave to pull a bow..... maybe its you who doesn't understand bows or the human body?????

Thanks for your comment about being useless, and the 'dig' about "real bowhunters'. About what I expected in return from ya!

You asked a question and I responded - against my better judgement. So I'm out.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by nmaksymyk

I agree with this. I would have gotten a much bigger buck this year if I wasn't forced to let down with my compound. 2 bucks hop a fence one after the other. Full draw on the first but was forced to let down because of no ethical shot. Bigger buck behind him saw me let down. Had a staring contest so I couldn't move to get a better shot. He hopped over at the same spot after a while. Draw again but no shot again for the same reason.
Don't care what you use to hunt. Hunting is hard no matter what. Just agreeing with the difference.

Try shouldering a crossbow on target for awhile without a rest, fatigue comes fast.