Crossbows, to be or not to be

[petew]

If drawing a bow is to difficult, and cocking a crossbow is to hard shouldn't we be able to use this? Afterall it shoots an arrow. Where does it end???

https://youtu.be/6bxE7rxY6fU

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by IronNoggin

I hunt the whole season - from early archery, through the rifle seasons, and late archery with my crossbow here in BC.

I saw in the suggested considerations for changes upcoming to Alberta's regulations, crossbows are being considered for full inclusion in archery seasons over there. Many Provinces & States have already done this same thing. I do not view it as a negative.

Regardless, I WILL be back hunting Alberta with my crossbow next archery season. And for every single archery season that follows I am alive for most likely. Unfortunately I am now "disabled" to the point I can no longer use my vertical bow. Fortunately Alberta has graciously allowed me to hunt with stick & string regardless of that fact.

Thanks for the links & information Pincherguy. I will be sending my comments in...

Cheers,
Nog

Nothing wrong with using a crossbow if you can't pull back the 40lbs required, there is already provisions to allow for that....hence, the current rules and regs are appropriate IMHO.

LC

[Pincherguy]

Due to some physical problems I have, I have not been able to use my compound for the last 7 years. I sure miss hunting with my buddies during the archery season, they do not hunt with a rifle. It would be nice to get back in camp with them. Anything that I harvest with my crossbow is nice and I do use it during the regular season. I would not even dream that it would be excepted by Pope and Young, I am not a trophy hunter. What ever anyone else hunts with doesn't bother me in the least, if it's legal have at it. I really don't see much difference between them and the 80 and 85 percent let off on some of the compound bows. I was not trying to start anything, just passing along information. As far as the negative side of the debate, I am sure the ESRD would welcome any input on the subject. Wishing you all a merry Christmas and a prosperous new year, tight lines and straight shooting. That sure is a nice set of arrows that girl is has, she would be welcome in my camp anytime.

[Lefty-Canuck]

The one major difference is that even with an 80% let off bow...it still has to be drawn and cannot be held indefinitely...a cross bow can be cocked and sit there in situ indefinitely. In a ground blind, a crossbow has a huge advantage as well as in a tree stand...both scenarios allow use of a rest. Spot and stalk...the compound bow has the advantage IMHO, except for when it comes time for a shot. A cross bow can be shot laying down and from a great variety of field positions.

I would have had a few more deer under my belt if crossbows were allowed, heck I would have had about a 150 deer this year if I did use a crossbow (was hunting during a season and in a zone where x-bows were legal at the time) I am at the "method" stage, I prefer to use a compound bow because I am not proficient enough with trad gear.

Crossbows have a place, and people get permits to use them all the time. If there comes a day I cannot draw a bow....I will look into getting a permit.

LC

[hal53]

I'm having a hard time figuring out what the big deal is. Why do archers not want them in their season and rifle hunters don't want them in General?

[petew]

Originally Posted by hal53

I'm having a hard time figuring out what the big deal is. Why do archers not want them in their season and rifle hunters don't want them in General?

never heard of rifle hunters having an issue, but as far as archery it is simple, they are no more archery than that Air gun ,arrow shooting contraption is.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by hal53

I'm having a hard time figuring out what the big deal is. Why do archers not want them in their season and rifle hunters don't want them in General?

They are allowed with permit during archery only season.

They are allowed for anyone with or without permit during ALL general seasons currently.

No issue leaving things as is IMHO.

LC

[hal53]

Originally Posted by petew

never heard of rifle hunters having an issue, but as far as archery it is simple, they are no more archery than that Air gun ,arrow shooting contraption is.

Well, todays compound bows weren't exactly what was envisioned when the special archery season was initiated?....and a cross bow doesn't look like it falls under the description of rifle to me? As I said, it makes no difference to me, but I don't think the stamping of feet etc. makes the archers look very good....

[Hydro1]

Originally Posted by hal53

I'm having a hard time figuring out what the big deal is. Why do archers not want them in their season and rifle hunters don't want them in General?

Not my opinion but in speaking with archers.
They don't like that anyone can pick up a crossbow and be shooting consistantly enough to hunt in an hour. Takes little to no skill to use, cock, sit wait, pull trigger. Done.

My opinion,I am back and forth constantly.

[338Bluff]

Put every critter on the draw and you can have your crossbow season. Our opportunities are getting pushed to the extreme with the current population in this province. Access is getting harder at the same time.

Crossbows will be the end of bow season. They will totally wreck it.

[petew]

Originally Posted by hal53

Well, todays compound bows weren't exactly what was envisioned when the special archery season was initiated?....and a cross bow doesn't look like it falls under the description of rifle to me? As I said, it makes no difference to me, but I don't think the stamping of feet etc. makes the archers look very good....

last I checked we don't have a rifle season, we do have a General season though. Good thing we don't have a "rifle" season or we would be eliminating the smooth bores.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by petew

last I checked we don't have a rifle season, we do have a General season though. Good thing we don't have a "rifle" season or we would be eliminating the smooth bores.

So sorry for using the incorrect terminology, I think I'm beginning to see the problem....

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Hydro1

Not my opinion but in speaking with archers.
They don't like that anyone can pick up a crossbow and be shooting consistantly enough to hunt in an hour. Takes little to no skill to use, cock, sit wait, pull trigger. Done.

My opinion,I am back and forth constantly.

Next time a compound shooter says that ask him why he shoots wheels instead if a stick bow!
I truly believe the learning curve is greater with a crossbow than it us a compound.
Cat

[Lefty-Canuck]

I disagree...the learning curve with a compound is more difficult than a crossbow...

With a crossbow there is a scope and it is a point and shoot weapon. Cock it, load a bolt, point and shoot. Even use a rest if it's too heavy to freehand.

It's as easy as a rifle. A ten year old could be proficient in an hours time to 100 yards using a rest with a rifle and 40-50 yards with a crossbow assisted.

I doubt they could shoot to 40-50 yards with a compound given the same amount of instruction time....that is if they could pull the poundage needed to shoot that distance.

That's why it's allowed for the handicapped and disabled....because it is easier.

LC

[EZM]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Next time a compound shooter says that ask him why he shoots wheels instead if a stick bow!
I truly believe the learning curve is greater with a crossbow than it us a compound.
Cat

I am not being sarcastic - I'm genuinely interested as I have zero experience with a cross bow ...... why do you think a crossbow is harder to learn?

I am surprised by this. I'm not saying you are wrong - because I simply have no idea - it just seems a crossbow would be load, point and shoot.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I disagree...the learning curve with a compound is more difficult than a crossbow...

With a crossbow there is a scope and it is a point and shoot weapon, cock it load a bolt point and shoot. Even use a rest if it's too heavy to freehand.

It's as easy as a rifle. A ten year old could be proficient in an hours time to 100 yards using a rest with a rifle and 40-50 yards with a crossbow assisted.

I doubt they could shoot to 40-50 yards with a compound given the same amount of instruction time....that is if they could pull the poundage needed to shoot that distance.

That's why it's allowed for the handicapped and disabled....because it is easier.

LC

I'm talking about an able bodied person not someone who cannot draw a bow
The people I have seen shoot compounds that tried crossbows had various issues with them
The biggest problem I see with them is cocking them without a windlass or othe device as opposed to drawing a bow
They are heavier and more clumsy than z compound as well .
Learning to shoot with multiple pins was much easier for those guys than a single sight as well but they weren't using a scope .
I guess they have scopes for bows as well .
The second shot is not even worth talking about - it is about the same as a second shot with a muzzle loader compared to a single shot rifle .
Cat

[Lefty-Canuck]

If someone has never shot a bow or a x-bow ever before....they would be proficient with the crossbow faster IMHO.

...that's only my opinion.

LC

[Smokinyotes]

Crossbows require zero skill compared to a long bow or compound. They should only be allowed in the general season.

[Jalan]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Crossbows require zero skill compared to a long bow or compound. They should only be allowed in the general season.

I find compounds require little more skill then muscle memory.

[catnthehat]

I am going yo contact Mistagin and get him to weigh in here .
He shoots compound , cross bow and rifle.
Cat

[58thecat]

Archery is traditional if you want to keeping it there, but and yes the but is always there, compounds make it easier, I can shoot mine prone on my back, sure you can hold longer than traditional and crossbows well forever, what we are missing folks is that they are all bows and should be included in the same season.
Imagine having a single shot rifle season, open sighted season, scoped season etc my god people wake up.
A bow is a bow is a bow...blah blah blah

Traditional bow hunters shake their heads at us compound guys saying we cheat but yet we still share the same seasons as should the cross bow folks.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Archery is traditional if you want to keeping it there, but and yes the but is always there, compounds make it easier, I can shoot mine prone on my back, sure you can hold longer than traditional and crossbows well forever, what we are missing folks is that they are all bows and should be included in the same season.
Imagine having a single shot rifle season, open sighted season, scoped season etc my god people wake up.
A bow is a bow is a bow...blah blah blah

Traditional bow hunters shake their heads at us compound guys saying we cheat but yet we still share the same seasons as should the cross bow folks.

A crossbow is distinctly different than a trad or compound bow....surely you realize the difference.

Hence why it is not considered "archery" by definition or recognition.

Cock a crossbow and shoulder it all day if you want with the use of a rest...can you hold a bow a full draw all day?

LC

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Crossbows require zero skill compared to a long bow or compound. They should only be allowed in the general season.

Long bow requires more skill than compound, compound should be only allowed in general season...see the ignorance?

[Hydro1]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Next time a compound shooter says that ask him why he shoots wheels instead if a stick bow!
I truly believe the learning curve is greater with a crossbow than it us a compound.
Cat

Haha. I have, none of them can give me a good answer!

I too will have to respectfully disagree with you on the ease of learning to shoot a compound vs a crossbow.
In one afternoon of being taught how to properly cock, and use a crossbow I was shooting well enough to be comfortable hunting with it out to 20-25 yards.
Still hunt with one every once and a while, as it's easier to shoot rabbits with one.
Cocking the dang thing properly may of been the most difficult part.

I still after years of using compounds on and off can't say I'm a very good shot.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

A crossbow is distinctly different than a trad or compound bow....surely you realize the difference.

LC

A trad is distinctly different than a compound...surely you realize the difference!

We can dance all night long...your up!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

A trad is distinctly different than a compound...surely you realize the difference!

We can dance all night long...your up!

Yes we could...but you are wrong

Look at how archery is defined....muscle power used to draw and hold at full draw.

Does that describe your crossbow?

A sled and a wheelbarrow are different....yet they perform a similar function.

LC

[58thecat]

Types of bows Edit
Main article: Bow and arrow
While there is great variety in the construction details of bows (both historic and modern), all bows consist of a string attached to elastic limbs that store mechanical energy imparted by the user drawing the string. Bows may be broadly split into two categories: those drawn by pulling the string directly and those that use a mechanism to pull the string.

Directly drawn bows may be further divided based upon differences in the method of limb construction, notable examples being self bows, laminated bows and composite bows. Bows can also be classified by the bow shape of the limbs when unstrung; in contrast to traditional European straight bows, a recurve bow and some types of Longbow have tips that curve away from the archer when the bow is unstrung. The cross-section of the limb also varies; the classic longbow is a tall bow with narrow limbs that are D-shaped in cross section, and the flatbow has flat wide limbs that are approximately rectangular in cross-section. The classic D-shape comes from the use of the wood of the yew tree. The sap-wood is best suited to the tension on the back of the bow, and the heart-wood to the compression on the belly. Hence, a cross-section of a yew longbow shows the narrow, light-coloured sap-wood on the 'straight' part (riser) of the D, and the red/orange heartwood forms the curved part of the D, to balance the mechanical tension/compression stress. Cable-backed bows use cords as the back of the bow; the draw weight of the bow can be adjusted by changing the tension of the cable. They were widespread among Inuit who lacked easy access to good bow wood. One variety of cable-backed bow is the Penobscot bow or Wabenaki bow, invented by Frank Loring (Chief Big Thunder) about 1900.[25] It consists of a small bow attached by cables on the back of a larger main bow.

In different cultures, the arrows are released from either the left or right side of the bow, and this affects the hand grip and position of the bow. In Arab archery, Turkish archery and Kyūdō, the arrows are released from the right hand side of the bow, and this affects construction of the bow. In western archery, the arrow is usually released from the left hand side of the bow.


Modern (takedown) recurve bow
Compound bows are designed to reduce the force required to hold the string at full draw, hence allowing the archer more time to aim with less muscular stress. Most compound designs use cams or elliptical wheels on the ends of the limbs to achieve this. A typical let-off is anywhere from 65%–80%. For example, a 60-pound bow with 80% let-off only requires 12 pounds of force to hold at full draw. Up to 99% let-off is possible.[26] The compound bow was invented by Holless Wilbur Allen in the 1960s (a US patent was filed in 1966 and granted in 1969) and it has become the most widely used type of bow for all forms of archery in North America.

Mechanically drawn bows typically have a stock or other mounting, such as the crossbow. Crossbows typically have shorter draw lengths compared to compound bows. Because of this, heavier draw weights are required to achieve the same energy transfer to the arrow. These mechanically drawn bows also have devices to hold the tension when the bow is fully drawn. They are not limited by the strength of a single archer and larger varieties have been used as siege engines.

[TBark]

Likely another reason bowhunters do not want crossbows in archery season is if hunter surveys show more animals taken during archery season as a result of crossbows, the archery season for certain species will go to a draw, if not already on a draw. And number of tags on that draw will be reduced also.

TBark

[Lefty-Canuck]

^^^^^
This is a factor. Real or perceived.

Seeing as we live in Alberta, let's go with how archery/bows are defined here

From ALBERTA regulations:

Persons hunting big game must use an authorized bow and an authorized arrow. An authorized bow is one that is held, drawn and released by muscular power and has a draw weight of not less than 18 kg (40 lb.). This is the number of kilograms (pounds) required to draw an arrow of 71 cm (28 in.) to its head. An authorized arrow is one that is not less than 61 cm (24 in.) in length that has a tip that bears a head that is not intentionally designed to resist being withdrawn after it has penetrated an object. Furthermore, it must either have a solid, sharp cutting head of at least 7/8 inch in width, or a head that, when the arrow impacts, opens to present sharp cutting edges at least 7/8 inch in width.

LC

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by TBark

Likely another reason bowhunters do not want crossbows in archery season is if hunter surveys show more animals taken during archery season as a result of crossbows, the archery season for certain species will go to a draw, if not already on a draw. And number of tags on that draw will be reduced also.

TBark

Please not even going there, the powers that be make decisions as we always know are not based on first hand situations as in the now draw for moose as appose to buying a archery tag.

Most North American hunters are lazy and that being said if and when crossbows are allowed in archery season it will have little impact on game animals taken, you still got to get out of your truck, walk and set up and as with everything else the novelty will burn off and these new purchases will sit in closets along with the other hey I bought this gadget to make it easier to bag a game animal equipment.