Crossbows, to be or not to be

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Sorry that's the perception you have, but these crossbow decisions are many years old and do not rest solely on the ABA, you have heard of AGMAG? Trust me the ABA does not have the power or the say that you give them credit for.

Before any more words get out in my mouth I am out

LC

Like it or not, archers and the ABA get lumped together in the general publics eyes. I find it hypocritical that the use of Altaltis and spears are lobbied against because it is too much effort to become proficient with them, yet Cross bows are lobbied against because they are too easy to become proficient with?

[Unregistered user]

Well put.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by hal53

Like it or not, archers and the ABA get lumped together in the general publics eyes. I find it hypocritical that the use of Altaltis and spears are lobbied against because it is too much effort to become proficient with them, yet Cross bows are lobbied against because they are too easy to become proficient with?

X2 The ABA should have never opened that can of worms.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by hal53

Like it or not, archers and the ABA get lumped together in the general publics eyes. I find it hypocritical that the use of Altaltis and spears are lobbied against because it is too much effort to become proficient with them, yet Cross bows are lobbied against because they are too easy to become proficient with?

Hell, the traditional archers put up with the compound shooters in their archery season and the patched round ball guys gave to put up with inclines, what 's the big issue with crossbows in an archery season?
Fear if too many hunters in " their " season?
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by ont-xbower

Hello fellow archers.

My first post.

I live in southern Ontario and we have been able to us xbows for archery hunting for several years now.

I can understand the opposition to xbows from the vertical guys. However from what I have read if all goes well you will see full inclusion as early as the start of the 2016 deer season.

When xbows became legal here we had the below results.

A boost to revenue for additional deer seal purchases.
Elderly hunters and apprentise hunters started to bow hunt.
Deer harvest levels were increased to the mnr standards.
Increased revenue for archery shops for xbows and arrows.
Increase of non resident hunters. Revenue up.
Many of your vertical hunters will transition over to the crossbow....
Ontario crossbow hunters far exceed the vertical method.
Ontario hunters don't care what bow you use. We are all humters doing what we love to do.


I hunt with a crossbow and have done very well putting prime organic venison on the table with my crossbow.and in the end thats what its all about...

I have sent my comments in from a province that allows you to use what you want during the open archery season.

Good luck to the future crossbow hunters in Alberta. Ontario is behind you 100%....

One concern has been an increased harvest, which could result in more draws being implemented, so there would actually be less opportunity in the archery season. This statement in red confirms the increased harvest. Some people were upset when the first round of archery draws were implemented, and this would result in more draws being implemented.

[Lefty-Canuck]

FYI as far as I know that proposal is dead BTW....they are made on a year to year basis, again that was not only an ABA thing. Yes I am an ABA member but I don't agree with everything they do. Don't agree with all the AFGA does either.

LC

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

One concern has been an increased harvest, which could result in more draws being implemented, so there would actually be less opportunity in the archery season. This statement in red confirms the increased harvest.

One must also realize the number of deer in those areas as well.
The argument will go back and forth forever , there will never be a consensus.
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

One must also realize the number of deer in those areas as well.
The argument will go back and forth forever , there will never be a consensus.
Cat

Yes it would depend on the area, but draws for archery hunting were recently introduced in some WMUs due to the archery harvest numbers, so incteasing the harvest would likely expand the implementation of the draws in some WMUs.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by hal53

Like it or not, archers and the ABA get lumped together in the general publics eyes.

Funny part with this Hal is look at the number of ABA members and the total number of archers....if people want to make changes within an organization. Maybe they should join it and become active, that's what I did.

Guess we best lump in all rifle shooters with Best of the West and all Duck Hunters with Duck Dynasty, in the public eye that's what they see. Most of the public has no idea the ABA exists.

LC

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Funny part with this Hal is look at the number of ABA members and the total number of archers....if people want to make changes within an organization. Maybe they should join it and become active, that's what I did.

Guess we best lump in all rifle shooters with Best of the West and all Duck Hunters with Duck Dynasty, in the public eye that's what they see. Most of the public has no idea the ABA exists.

LC

What are you trying to change , now that you have joined?

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by petew

What is wrong with an able bodied person hunting with a bow in an archery season ?

That's happening, actually... Look at how popular archery is becoming. An increasing number of hunters are either starting out as archers; also, some rifle hunters are adding archery to their toolset as to extend their seasons. I am one of the latter.

The pressure on game in the archery-only seasons is increasing, regardless of whether crossbows are going to be included in the archery-only season or not.

Which leads to the crux of the concerns about inclusion:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

One concern has been an increased harvest, which could result in more draws being implemented, so there would actually be less opportunity in the archery season.

If more hunters are turning to archery (even leaving crossbows out of the mix), isn't it logical to deduce that this will naturally result in an increased harvest, leading to less general archery opportunities and/or reduced rifle seasons?

My impression is that we are headed down that path, whether crossbows are included in the archery-only season or not. Maybe we should instead focus on promoting game management etc. Wouldn't that be a better, united front that all hunters could expend their energies on?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Here is an article related.

http://www.westernsportsman.com/2011/10/aba-response/

LC

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by hal53

What are you trying to change , now that you have joined?

I have been very active in helping to develop the Bowhunter Challenge class to encourage people to come and practice their skills in a hunting simulated situation and have a bunch of fun meeting fellow archers. Promoting ethical shot scenarios and the option to pass on a shot with no penalty, with the hope that archers new and old will make ethical decisions in the field.

Is this satisfactory for a newer member?

LC

[elkhunter11]

If more hunters are turning to archery (even leaving crossbows out of the mix), isn't it logical to deduce that this will naturally result in an increased harvest, leading to less general archery opportunities and/or restrictions on rifle seasons?

My impression is that we are headed down that path, whether crossbows are included in the archery-only season or not. Maybe we should instead focus on promoting game management etc. Wouldn't that be a better, united front that all hunters could expend their energies on?

Allowing crossbows in the archery season, would just worsen the situation, due to a larger influx of hunters wanting to hunt the archery season.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Here is an article related.

http://www.westernsportsman.com/2011/10/aba-response/

LC

That response to the Western Sportsman was from the same guy who advocated banning atlatls for whatever reason he gave? The fact of the matter is, he doesn't like them.
So what, I don't like compounds but but held no grudge against them being in "my" seasons when I hunted with archery gear.
Bring whatever argument and reasons you want, the fact remains that there are more hunters in the filed and letting crossbows into an archery area is not going t be the death knell of hunting in Alberta - we the hunters are through our own selfishness.
Cat

[buckstop660]

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

We are not talking about just deer. Can you hunt Moose, Elk and Mule Deer on a General OTC Tag in Missouri? What is the average length of your archery season? Some of ours are nearly two months.

I hunt with rifle, bow and muzzle-loader. Things are pretty fine for the status quo. If I buy a cross bow then I would use it during the general season. No big deal.

You sure you don't sell, manufacture or get some sort of a financial reward for promoting crossbows?

Un fortunately in MO. We don't have a hunt able elk, moose, or bear populations but the numbers are increasing. Our big game is whitetail deer. Our archery season runs from Sept 15 to Nov. 13 then there is 2 weeks of firearms season and then archery starts again and runs until Jan. 15. We are allowed 2 bucks, unlimited doe tags and 2 turkeys.

I assure you I in know way am connected as a representitive or have a financial interest in this matter. I'm not even sponsored by any firm although in the late 70s I was a shooter for for bear archery. My interest is as an avid bow hunter who enjoys both methods and the ability to chose the weapon I want to hunt with on any given day. I personally see no logical reason to oppose crossbow inclusion.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by hal53

Like it or not, archers and the ABA get lumped together in the general publics eyes. I find it hypocritical that the use of Altaltis and spears are lobbied against because it is too much effort to become proficient with them, yet Cross bows are lobbied against because they are too easy to become proficient with?

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

She sneaks into a strangers house, bitches that the food is too hot and too cold, the beds are too hard and too soft.

Goldilocks might be cute, but we can see past the lipstick on this high maintenance tramp.

[winged1]

I can see where large numbers of hunters would want to move up thier season by investing into Xbow, during the archery season. With our 'it's mine' mentality, we'd be tripping over each other to get there earlier in the season. All that will accomplish is increased conflict with hosts. Truck hunters burning through swath, cattle running amuck. It might work in other provinces, but this is Alberta. I can see public hunting drifting into obscurity, brought on by the rush to be first. Works great for the product suppliers though, and would be a very good investment should the regs accept.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Ahhhhh!!!! Never quite saw it at first post but now it leaps out when paired up to Hal's post. Yup!

[pottymouth]

Alot of you missed my post.... so here it is again.

Most provinces and especially states that have xguns in the archery season, only have whitetail to hunt. In the states, most rifle seasons are either zero or 3 days.... very few are more than 10 days.

Using the models provided, would reducing rifle hunting to less than 10days a year be acceptable? What if xguns were only acceptable for whitetail only?

I for one want to see them accepted, because i can see their inclusion will only reduce rifle hunting opportunities.... thats easy math to calculate.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Using the models provided, would reducing rifle hunting to less than 10days a year be acceptable? What if xguns were only acceptable for whitetail only?

This is a brilliant question. Good on you for outside of the box thinking, Potty.

I don't see any reason that inclusion of crossbows in the archery only season has to be all encompassing. There are so many alternatives, such as the one that you provided......Crossbows included for whitetail hunting only, OR, crossbows legal to use in the bow only zones around Edmonton and Calgary. It doesn't have to be province wide for every zone and every species of animal.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by hal53

Like it or not, archers and the ABA get lumped together in the general publics eyes. I find it hypocritical that the use of Altaltis and spears are lobbied against because it is too much effort to become proficient with them, yet Cross bows are lobbied against because they are too easy to become proficient with?

That's the problem with special interest groups. I can think of a similar special interest fishing association that would screw other anglers over for their own best interests. Promoting your activity is okay but when you do it at the expense of others, that becomes a problem and causes a divide.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

This is a brilliant question. Good on you for outside of the box thinking, Potty.

I don't see any reason that inclusion of crossbows in the archery only season has to be all encompassing. There are so many alternatives, such as the one that you provided......Crossbows included for whitetail hunting only, OR, crossbows legal to use in the bow only zones around Edmonton and Calgary. It doesn't have to be province wide for every zone and every species of animal.

But it would have to co-inside with a reduction in rifle harvest percentages and hunt times. Also whitetail herd numbers would have to be equal

[Mulehahn]

Why does allowing crossbows have to equal a shorter rifle season? Why can't they shorten the Archery season? I hunt with both so I don't care, but lots of guys don't. Allow crossbows in the Archery season and knock off a week at the end. There is no law preventing people from. Bow hunting in rifle season if they want so die hard archers wouldn't suffer. Why is that they expect die hard rifle hunters to?

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

But it would have to co-inside with a reduction in rifle harvest percentages and hunt times. Also whitetail herd numbers would have to be equal

Hunt times can stay the same. With the proposed split draw, tags could be allocated by the % that applies to Archery season or General season. (exmp. 50% of the population applies for the Archery season, 50% of the tags go to the Archery season)

General Whitetail wouldn't be affected.

Or just leave it as it is now with crossbows allowed in the Archery season and adjust the allocations based on the number of Archery permits sold.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Mulehahn

Why does allowing crossbows have to equal a shorter rifle season? Why can't they shorten the Archery season? I hunt with both so I don't care, but lots of guys don't. Allow crossbows in the Archery season and knock off a week at the end. There is no law preventing people from. Bow hunting in rifle season if they want so die hard archers wouldn't suffer. Why is that they expect die hard rifle hunters to?

Bow guys have a season... thought is rifle guys who want to hunt the bow season is the majority of ppl who will pick up a xgun. So more ppl in the archery season means it should be expanded...less in the rifle so shortening only makes sense.

The option to use a bow and rifle already exist, thats not the problem.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Hunt times can stay the same. With the proposed split draw, tags could be allocated by the % that applies to Archery season or General season. (exmp. 50% of the population applies for the Archery season, 50% of the tags go to the Archery season)

General Whitetail wouldn't be affected.

Or just leave it as it is now with crossbows allowed in the Archery season and adjust the allocations based on the number of Archery permits sold.

The split draw tags will already affect the allocated % numbers. Rifle draws will be shortened.... thats a reality, dictated by the numbers already.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

The split draw tags will already affect the allocated % numbers. Rifle draws will be shortened.... thats a reality, dictated by the numbers already.

I think closer to reality is the archery season will be shortened...and it will be one or the other, you hunt with a bow or a rifle in their respective seasons...your choice, but not both

[ont-xbower]

Experience in other provinces has shown that allowing the use of crossbows helps retain and recruit hunters. At a time when hunter numbers are declining, nothing is more important. Retention of older hunters with diminished physical capabilities is especially critical. If allowed to use crossbows, these hunters will remain in the field years longer than they otherwise would if restricted to vertical bows only. As a result, they would be more likely to recruit more family and friends into Alberta's ranks of hunters. For youngsters who do not yet possess the physical strength to use a vertical bow, crossbows would allow them to go afield earlier and create more lifelong archery hunters.”In addition, experience in other provinces shows that archer success rates do not increase with the use of a crossbow as compared to a vertical bow. The goal of all hunters should be to increase participation because greater hunter numbers in the future will bolster defenses against the political attacks initiated by anti-hunting extremists and ensure the continuation of Alberta's hunting heritage.

[IronNoggin]

Originally Posted by CNP

Number 1:

Nice CNP!

My Number One in here in her two varying forms:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Safety is one factor, a lot of the modes employed (decoys) etc. for example the case of antelope are not conducive for having general season run at the same time...

LOL! And the exact same should not apply for those using a crossBOW???

No pony in this race as I can (and will) obtain a Permit whenever I want to. That as noted will likely be every year for the foreseeable future...

BUT - I must note that the arguments against inclusion presented here have appeared in the same discussions many many times over in other jurisdictions. Here & now, as in then & there, they are largely baseless, self-serving and protectionist to the max.

No Surprise I guess. Human nature is after all Human Nature...

Cheers,
Nog