Obsolete cartridges and those one their way.

[KegRiver]

Lately I've been occupied working up a load for my 218 Bee and that and the number of posts here concerning much more recent cartridges got me to thinking about the lure of buying the latest and greatest.

I have two examples of where that can lead. I have the 218 Bee and my brother's .284 model 88.

I have trouble finding ammo for both but the 284 is becoming almost impossible to find ammo or brass for. And both have very limited options for bullet selection. Especially for loaded ammo.

There is a good side to that though. The rarity of both rifles has pushed their value to well above the original purchase price.
That is not always the case however.

I have other guns that are not easy to find these days nore is the ammo for them. And they are worth less now then the original purchase price.

Thinking about that has got me wondering what a 300 SSM will be worth in twenty years, or for that matter, any of the Short magnums or super short magnums.
Or how about a 264 or the 224 Valkyrie.

Many of these new cartridges, okay, the 264 is not all that new, but most of these cartridges have only a slight advantage over their rivals if any at all.
Not only that but the field is getting a bit crowded I think.

It also seems to me that a good many of them are sold to people who don't and won't shoot them enough to gain the necessary skill to benefit from any superiority in performance they may have.

I've seen it a number of times among my circle of friends. Of course maybe that's just the kinda friends I keep, but rifle values don't bear that out.

The 218 Bee, the 284, the 264, the 300 SSM and even a 243 SM all belong to friend or family or at least did at one time and all have fallen from grace.

I understand the logic of buying the latest match winning caliber. I've spent my share of time looking at and wanting the "New Shiny"

But a life time of hunting and shooting has taught me that for many, it is a waste of money.

My uncle never recouped a penny from his 218 purchase. My brother has not and will likely not realize one cent gain from his once shiny new 284.
My sister may some day recoup the cost of her 243 SM but the way things are now it doesn't look good.

In the mean time my .303 is still gaining in value as is my .06

I know some people who buy rifles purely for enjoyment of owning that particular rifle. I know others who shoot hundreds if not thousands of rounds per year. For them, each new rifle earns it's keep.

But I suspect that the average hunter would get far better value for his dollar if he spent in on one of the more long living, more available choices.

See the thing is, I have found that more game is taken at ranges under 200 yards then at longer ranges, and that Deer does not die any faster nore does the meat taste any different if it was shot with a 6.5 x 55 or a 6.5 Grendel, or for that matter, with a 338-300 Ultra

Of course there are exceptions. Antelope hunting may be one of those. Hunting Mountain goats may be another.
And of course a fool has every right to part with his money any way he wishes.

But for the average Joe with an average job, and a family to feed, maybe that shinny new rifle is not the best use of you hunting dollar.

[mattthegorby]

Really interesting post, look forward to the rest of the discussion. I am new to shooting, but it kinda makes me want to buy an obscure cartridge and a ton of brass for my next rifle.

[Pioneer2]

Will all be history as they just re-invented the wheel with something they already had in a full sized cartridge.If you own one I'd put away 500 brass be you are SOL.Even beautiful older Sakos are being sold for half of what they are worth.

[elkhunter11]

I have owned many obscure cartridges, and I still own a few. When I purchased my first 17mach2, I purchased 20,000 rounds of ammunition, and I likely purchased another 10,000 over the years, and I still have around 15,000 rounds, so I won't run out in the near future. I purchased 400 rounds of factory 20 tactical cases, and over 1000 rounds of 7mmstw cases, so I also have enough to last me the rest of my life. It doesn't matter what cartridge you have, as long as you stock up on cases, you can continue to shoot them long after the components become difficult to source.
As for the average shooter, from what I see at the ranges, he shoots factory loads, and shoots less than 100 rounds of centerfire per year, and is a moa to 2moa shooter off of a bench, and he rarely if ever shoots past 200 yards on paper. So it really does't matter which cartridge the average shooter chooses to shoot, he will never see any of the supposed advantages that certain cartridges offer. If he steps up to the latest cartridge, it may be easier to find factory loads, but other than that, the change won't improve his success rate on game.

[Pathfinder76]

So what should the potentially average hunter buy for cartridge? They have to start somewhere.

[Pioneer2]

A 30-06 is never a mistake.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by chuck

So what should the potentially average hunter buy for cartridge? They have to start somewhere.

The average hunter could do fine with any medium capacity case ,using a bullet from .264" to 308". If he isn't going to reload, a common cartridge is the most practical choice, but if you end up with a less common cartridge, I would purchase enough ammunition to last several years.

[ghostguy6]

Unless you reload your own cartridges your rifle selection will be limited to what ammo is commonly available on the shelves. Price also becomes a big factor when selecting a cartridge. Your average shooter is not gong to pay $5 a round when they can pay $1.50 for a cartridge that will be effective at average ranges.

[KegRiver]

All good responses.

The question of what is the best is not easily answered but I think Elkhunter comes as close as one can.

For sure if one can afford to buy a life supply of ammo the choice is much easier but not many can afford much less justify such an expenditure.

It's great if you can and I think it's cool but I know I could never afford such a purchase. Especially not now. Canada pension is not a get rich quick scheme.

I would add to what has been said. Research. Not just asking on hunting and shooting forums. Read as much literature as you can find about a cartridge of interest and any rifle of interest.

What works best for me, or anyone may not work the best for the next guy.
We all bring different physical attributes, skills, budget, and needs to the table.

Keep in mind, there are two main things to consider in equipment alone.
First is the cartridge, second is the rifle.

There are also three main things to consider with regards to the purchaser.
Skill level. It can improve
Physical attributes. They don't change much.
Budget. It is what it is.

Round that all off with personal preferences and one starts to get a bit of the picture as to why the question of what is best has no easy answer.

Keep in mind that everyone has a pet cartridge and or rifle. That doesn't necessarily mean they make the best choices.
On top of that, there are usually several cartridges and rifle in the running.

Don't rule out cheap rifles but be cautious. Some times there are good reasons a rifle is cheap and some times a good rifle sells cheap.
Military surplus is a good example but again, not all are good choices.

Beware of the 6.5 military cartridges. A 6.5mm x 55mm Swedish Mauser is a fine rifle, a 6.5 mm Carcano is not.

One last thing. Beware of professional writers. Some give the best advice available but some are acting more as salesmen then writers.
Keep in mind, they get paid to write. It matters who is paying them.

[32-40win]

One thing you can depend on in the world of firearms and cartridges, is that the minutiae will be pounded on over and over, in the never ending quest for the elusive bughole on a target and the need to hit something on the other side of a half section, that recoils like a .22LR, and the bullet that won't deflect on a tree and go right thru it and kill what is 50 yds away, on the other side of it, but expand to the perfect mushroom and exit the critter.
And somebody will have to invent a "new" cartridge, that was made from something else, that is blown out, has a better shoulder angle for internal efficiency and will perform whatever form of magic desired by the "inventor". A great example at the moment is the Nosler lineup, they are essentially taking the belted magnums and putting them in a non-belted case, which has been done before, and probably is actually an improvement in a few ways. They just have the money to promote it better than say, the old Imperial magnum line was, which are obsolete now, for all intents and purposes.
30-30win is a pretty capable cartridge, so is a .223 Rem, 303 or a 7x or 8x57 or a 30-06 or the 300H&H or 416 Rigby or a 45-70 or a 500NE. People just need to put their own stamp on it, promote the heck out of it and themselves or their company. Look at Weatherby. And on and on and on it goes.

[Nova316]

I built my hunting rifle in 284win whats old is new again right? If you reload you can neck size up 6.5x284 Lapua brass into 284win brass which is what I am using. I built my rifles for enjoyment I know I'll never make a cent off them if I was going to sell, probably end up losing my shirts from selling them but its part of the fun tax to reload and shoot. I do shoot thousands of rounds a year through my rifles. Is it required? Definitely not. A $500 hunting rifle will do just as well as a $3000 hunting rifle if you know your shot placement and limits.

[Smokinyotes]

One cartridge that I’m very surprised never took off is the 7 WSM. As far as I’m concerned it is the best of all the wsm’s. It is a inherently accurate cartridge problem is trying to find quality brass.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

One cartridge that I’m very surprised never took off is the 7 WSM. As far as I’m concerned it is the best of all the wsm’s. It is a inherently accurate cartridge problem is trying to find quality brass.

X2!

I really like the 7wsm and if the brass was readily available I’d have one. I bought the next best thing, a 270wsm. The 150gr bullets in the 270wsm are an acceptable alternative I suppose. Still, I wish it was a 7mm.

[KegRiver]

In some circles the newer offering may seem to be more popular then they really are.

I know that most of the hunters I know still shoot the older cartridges and that is supported by what I see on store shelves in the district.

It's one of the problems with the newer offerings. If one lives in or close to one of the bigger centers, like Grand Prairie or Red Deer, I'm sure one has little trouble finding ammo for these new cartridges but try finding a box of 300 SSM or a box of 17 HMR in Hay River or Lac LA Biche and I'm sure you'll find an entirely different situation.

I once read that the .303 and 30-30 account for more game then all other cartridges combined. I can believe that.

I wouldn't doubt it is true even in 2018. I know a lot of farmers and trappers who use older rifles chambered for the older cartridges.

They just don't write about it. Not on the internet or in hunting magazines.

Speaking of the internet. I find that these days many don't seem to realize that there are still people who don't have a cell phone or internet access.

People seem shocked when I tell them I don't do text messaging. They can't seem to grasp that there is no cell coverage where I live.
And no sporting good store.

I buy most of my ammo at the local lumber yard. I can't buy ammo or many of the components for reloading off the internet because we have only one courier service that operates here and they will not deliver to a rural address or to a drop off point.

So even if I wanted to buy one of the newer offerings it would be a poor choice because of ammo and components availability around here.

That may be my situation but I am not even close to being the only one in this situation. There are little centers all over the north with the same issues or worse.

That is where you'll find the older rifles and cartridges and a lot of very experienced outdoorsmen and women who seldom write anything anywhere.

[amosfella]

Actually, I believe that the 45/70 has killed the most game as it was sued in the buffalo slaughters as a favorite. Buffalo just died with that cartridge.

I'd suggest that most beginners would do best if they were hunting with a 30-30, 44 mag, or a 7.62x39. Almost every small hardware store will have 30-30. A lot will have 44 mag and 7.62x39.

The recoil on those is not punishing. And there's little that won't die reliably at beginner hunting ranges from those bullets. Buffalo and grizz might be the exception. However, those aren't beginner hunts...

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by amosfella

Actually, I believe that the 45/70 has killed the most game as it was sued in the buffalo slaughters as a favorite. Buffalo just died with that cartridge.

I'd suggest that most beginners would do best if they were hunting with a 30-30, 44 mag, or a 7.62x39. Almost every small hardware store will have 30-30. A lot will have 44 mag and 7.62x39.

The recoil on those is not punishing. And there's little that won't die reliably at beginner hunting ranges from those bullets. Buffalo and grizz might be the exception. However, those aren't beginner hunts...

I don't recommend any of those three cartridges for beginners, the reason being that cartridges like the 6.5s, and the 7mm-08 offer similar recoil, with much better ballistics, when a person is ready for shots out to 200 yards or farther.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I don't recommend any of those three cartridges for beginners, the reason being that cartridges like the 6.5s, and the 7mm-08 offer similar recoil, with much better ballistics, when a person is ready for shots out to 200 yards or farther.

Those 2 suffer from availability problems. My thought on a beginner gun was something ammo is easy to find for even in small towns, a proven track record for killing game, and low recoil.

6.5mms and 7-08 miss the first mark as of my last perusal of a few small town hardware stores. That being said, I'm in quite a rural area.

[catnthehat]

I could spend the rest of my life hunting with a rifle chambered in 303 British
- ohwaitaminit....!
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by amosfella

Those 2 suffer from availability problems. My thought on a beginner gun was something ammo is easy to find for even in small towns, a proven track record for killing game, and low recoil.

6.5mms and 7-08 miss the first mark as of my last perusal of a few small town hardware stores. That being said, I'm in quite a rural area.

The 7.62x 39 doesn't have much of a track record as a big game cartridge in Canada, and many small town stores only stock FMJ loads in that chambering, if they stock them at all. But it isn't a huge deal to buy a few boxes of ammunition when in a larger center, so you don't run out during hunting season. Buying a few boxes, also means not having to change loads, and having to recheck zero, because you can't find the load you are using.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

A 30-06 is never a mistake.

X2

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The 7.62x 39 doesn't have much of a track record as a big game cartridge in Canada, and many small town stores only stock FMJ loads in that chambering, if they stock them at all. But it isn't a huge deal to buy a few boxes of ammunition when in a larger center, so you don't run out during hunting season. Buying a few boxes, also means not having to change loads, and having to recheck zero, because you can't find the load you are using.

UFA in Vulcan had 7.62x39 Federal soft point last time I looked at their ammo cabinet. Several cases of it in fact...

[Dubious]

No matter what everyone tells ya about bc and all the fun math and crazy new wizzbang micro moa rifles. The best rifle you can have is the one you already own, and if you don’t own one and need to get a rifle pick something that suits your needs shooting ability and budget a 30-30 shoots them just as dead as a fancy face melter magnum or a shiny master race 6.5 it’s the sad truth that no one wants to admit after way to many hours of what iffing the numbers.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Dubious

No matter what everyone tells ya about bc and all the fun math and crazy new wizzbang micro moa rifles. The best rifle you can have is the one you already own, and if you don’t own one and need to get a rifle pick something that suits your needs shooting ability and budget a 30-30 shoots them just as dead as a fancy face melter magnum or a shiny master race 6.5 it’s the sad truth that no one wants to admit after way to many hours of what iffing the numbers.

/\ /\ /\
True dat!
Cat

[Grizzly Adams]

If you hand load, no caliber is ever obsolete.

Grizz

[Flight01]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

short mags Will all be history as they just re-invented the wheel with something they already had in a full sized cartridge.If you own one I'd put away 500 brass be you are SOL.Even beautiful older Sakos are being sold for half of what they are worth.

Agree. My 338 RCM I really enjoy. Don’t worry I’ve saved all my brass and bought a Hornady reoloading starter kit
It will require me to start reloading in the coming years. And I look forward to it

My 2506 and 357 mag will also benefit from reloading

[KegRiver]

I own a 7.62 x 39, and I have been looking for reloadable ammo for it for as long as i have owned it. Sure I see tons of ammo offered, mostly at gun shows and all of it Mil. Surp. FMJ, bradon primed, corrosive junk.

I don't see .44 ammo anywhere I go but then, I have not been looking for it.
I may have missed it.

3O-30 ammo is easy to find and the cartridge is certainly capable but I would agree with those who say there are better options.

A 6.5 x 55 Swede is as good as many modern rifles, is flat shooting with 140gr loads and can be found at budget prices.

A used 243, 7mm 08, 308, or yes, even a .303 can be reasonably priced, offer less kick then even the venerable 06 and are very capable cartridges.

But if you already own a big game rifle, and it works well for you, I see no reason to change other then to for curiosity sake.

Honestly I can't count the number of times I've heard someone say, "My first rifle was a ******. I sold it. I wish I had kept it.

My first rifle was a Savage model 340 30-30. I wish I still had it, It was a sweet rifle and the rifle I took my first several Deer with. But alas, it was stolen from my car while I lived in Wetaskiwin.

I guess one of the bigger reasons I recommend spending less on a first rifle is because so many of us don't keep our fist rifles.

The reason I recommend buying a first rifle with as little kick as one can find is because buying a mean rifle at that point can lead to some bad flinching that is very hard to overcome later in life.

There are always exceptions. The guy who picks up his papa's 300 win mag and shoots the eye of a gnat at two hundred paces first time and every time after. Some call them prodigies. Others might call them something less flattering.

This persuit of the mythical tack driver is more fantasy then reality, for no other reason that most rifles are capable of better accuracy then their owners.
Moreover. The average hunter shoots factory ammo that falls short of the accuracy potentual of that particular rifle.

The first time hunter has far bigger issues to be concerned about then the accuracy of his first rifle.

For most, budget is number one issue, then comes ammo availability. At this point it is highly unlikely he or she will be hand loading.

Next comes kick, and developing good shooting habits and learning to shoot accurately.

Finally come hunting methods, finding game, and butchering.

All has to be learned.

The time to be thinking about winning matches and hitting targets at 1,000 yards is after all the other necessary skills have been mastered.

Shortcuts usually lead to disasters or very poor accuracy at best.

[Flight01]

My first rifle was a rem mohawk 308 win .... still have it thank god.
I did sell a JM stamped 30-30 Marlin ... why lord why? Just being a fool . That 30-30 killed a couple deer and bear with one shot bang flops. Funny how it transferred all it’s energy so well on game and had a better track record than any of my magnums for one shot take downs ...

[pikeslayer22]

The Ackley’s were all the rage before. Seems to have come to a halt and now every one and their dog is the creedmore bandwagon

[Talking moose]

Wildcatting is where it’s at!

[32-40win]

They certainly would have had fun having the selection of powders and bullets we have now, back in the 20's and 30's. May have been some interesting stuff created, and some of that old stuff may have stuck around longer than it did. Thinking in terms of the Newton cartridges and such stuff as the 219 Wasp and etc.