Legalize drugs.....

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Makes sense. Let's make Meth cheaper and easier to buy. No fear of being caught breaking the law. Most kids will just say..."use drugs? Naaa...it's legal dude...can't be fun. Let's go bowling".

Resounding success in relation to alcohol and tobacco.

[C Taylor]

I quit chewing snuff, craving every day for the last 7 months and then people start talking about how good it would be to legalize drugs! As a 13yr old kid I would get all kinds of snuff give to me at rodeos, almost 30yr of chewing! Never did any drugs,I could get in enough trouble with 2 cans of beer! How much harder would it be to quit drugs?
I've had a lot of guys working on crews with me, most of the guys that want legalized pot have already cooked their brains to where they arn't have as smart as they think they are.
OK rants over, if we didn't have so much paperwork for police for every charge on drugs, the police would be more willing to press charges more frequently.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

On one had you say kids need the facts to make solid decisions...and then you say you don't care about them smoking pot at a party. That is sad. The skills you are feeding your kids is so full of holes your are setting them up to fail unless you get lucky. I hope for your kids sake...they get lucky.

You seem to be clueless on actually what happens. Of those 80% of the kids...some will now try coke, hash, estasy or worse...meth or crack. When you are doing pot...you don't think well. You are buying drugs through a network where the sellers WANT your kids to be on meth. Higher profits. Take the pot out of the dealers hands...do you think they go away. No...they predate on those kids getting the pot legal and work them over to do the hard stuff. That is what Holland found.

I will tell my kids the truth. You will see kids try pot...some will feel good...some will feel paranoid some will feel hungry...some will like it so much they don't want reality any more. They go from pot heads to meth heads. They die on the street. Your option are to man up and not be a wussy and show some balls. You think you require a drug to make you cool...because it does not. Most kids do it out of peer pressure...their friends are doing it and they want you to try. Raise your kids right with confidence and the facts and hope to GOD they make the right decision. Seeing your kid at the coroner can not be a fun Sunday outing with the family. Doing pot makes you a complete utter loser and an idiot. Defend against that...Have fun

Sun

I estimate somewhere about 20% of Canadian adults are occasional pot users, and the majority of that I believe are business men of some degree of success. I think you would find it highly surprising (and maybe enlightening) to find out who uses. Probably better than 50% have tried it. Vast majority of those aren't DEAD!! Neither did they immediately grab a rock and try that also.

I think any of the "gateway" arguments can't fully predict why some people do try the harder stuff, but doubtfull that they would try meth but not pot.

I don't think anyone that has a toke weekly is automatically a perma-fry.

As for the assertion that people are having a hard time getting it because it's illegal....

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by C Taylor

I quit chewing snuff, craving every day for the last 7 months and then people start talking about how good it would be to legalize drugs! As a 13yr old kid I would get all kinds of snuff give to me at rodeos, almost 30yr of chewing! Never did any drugs,I could get in enough trouble with 2 cans of beer! How much harder would it be to quit drugs?I've had a lot of guys working on crews with me, most of the guys that want legalized pot have already cooked their brains to where they arn't have as smart as they think they are.
OK rants over, if we didn't have so much paperwork for police for every charge on drugs, the police would be more willing to press charges more frequently.

Hate to break it to you but tobacco (snuff) is classified as a stimulant it is a drug.

So you where a drug user.

[C Taylor]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Hate to break it to you but tobacco (snuff) is classified as a stimulant it is a drug.

So you where a drug user.

If we are going to get technical it would be were a drug user.
It would explain the voices
What I meant was illegal drugs that I have not used. I don't know anyone that hasn't had prescpition drugs

[Bushmaster]

The basic premise for making this post in the first place is that fact that the WAR IS OVER....and we lost.
We mostly all agree dealing to kids should be a hanging offence. But until the govt. has the balls to step it up a bit, it ain't gonna happen.

The govt. has being getting easier on crime throughout my entire life, so I can't see them swinging it around anytime soon !!

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Bushmaster

The basic premise for making this post in the first place is that fact that the WAR IS OVER....and we lost.
We mostly all agree dealing to kids should be a hanging offence. But until the govt. has the balls to step it up a bit, it ain't gonna happen.

The govt. has being getting easier on crime throughout my entire life, so I can't see them swinging it around anytime soon !!

All drug dealers regardless of WHOM they sell to should be shot. If they sell to a kid...horrible. If they sell to a kids mom or dad...you have equally destroyed that childs life IMHO.

The basic premise of some is that if you remove the preventative laws everyone will breath a sigh of relief and stop using or that there will not be an increase in usage.

If you want drugs...yes you can find them if you know the right people. However it is still hidden and not freely available and open like some people want it to become.

That will be disasterous...and it should be obvious to all.

As for posters arguing Meth ain't as bad as it seems...

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/crystalmeth/pdf/MethFacts.pdf

Meth is one of the most addictive drugs on the street. Drug dealers also mix it into other drugs or cocktails of drugs. They can slip in in extasy or pot or anything else. If you kid is smoking pot...it could be laced at some point with meth. Good luck on that.

While it is true some may not get addicted...the fact is a large proportion do. So large in fact to belittle the addictive properties implies some safety with this drug. Fact is...anyone could be instantly addicted...you just don't know it till you try. So from an odds perspective or risk management perspective, the rule would imply you would be...so IMHO everyone has to assume you are at a high risk to be additive...therefore using meth is death.

Anyone that can't see that risk relationship is trying to somehow undermine the severity of the risk...which is odd. Hopefully anyone with kids is explaining to them. Russian roulette is russian roulette. For many...it is like playing russian roulette with a live land mine. One step in that direction...BOOM...you are dead.

As for is pot bad... Yes it is for many. Sure the occasional puffer may not see lifelong issues...hopefully... Potheads have serious problems. Driving under the influence is bad. Using while doing dangerous jobs...bad. I have seen many, many guys loose good paying jobs because they could not stop smoking pot and got caught on the job. So if it is so easy to quit...why didn't they? Everyone is at risk...those that smoke are losers that can not or will not get control over their own lives...or mentally unstable individuals that can not or will not seek help for depression or other mental health or past abuse issues. If you or your kids can not or don't want to stay in control and in reality...there is a problem. Deal with it sooner than later.

My kids know the facts...hopefully have the self confidence to say NO...but no stupid wishy washy you can do pot...but I prefer you don't...and oh hey...by the way...meth ain't near as dangerous as that idiot Sundancefisher says.

Gezzz

Give me a break.

[NSRfishing]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

I estimate somewhere about 20% of Canadian adults are occasional pot users, and the majority of that I believe are business men of some degree of success. I think you would find it highly surprising (and maybe enlightening) to find out who uses. Probably better than 50% have tried it. Vast majority of those aren't DEAD!! Neither did they immediately grab a rock and try that also.

I think any of the "gateway" arguments can't fully predict why some people do try the harder stuff, but doubtfull that they would try meth but not pot.

I don't think anyone that has a toke weekly is automatically a perma-fry.

As for the assertion that people are having a hard time getting it because it's illegal....

most tradesman i know smoke the reefer i know some ironworkers smoke on the job not that i would recommend that when you are 300 ft in the air lol

[1899b]

I am not sure which side of the fence I am on in this issue but my children and I have been going through a tuff time because of drugs. My soon to be exwife is currently in detox. She and I split up when I demanded an intervention with her family due to her abuse of prescription drugs with three different doctors who had no idea she was playing the system. Her parents hung up on me and left me to dry in fear they wouldn't see their Grandkids again. Anyway after I left the house over a year ago she tailspinned into heavy drinking and cocaine and I had to get Child Services involved. After over a year of her failing 4 drug tests, Child Services has placed the children in my custody. The war on drugs is a joke. How can it take 4 failed drug tests to finally sieze the children over a one year span?? This kind of lienancy is what we are dealing with. This is why we are losing the war. The systems are lienant and failing the community and not protecting its citizens. We are talking about an 8 year old little girl and a 4 year old little boy here. For the record my exwife wife and I are educated trades people. Not talking welfare or skidrow people. Its a horrible thing the way the system is. I lived it and I am still having to. I am thankful and overwhlemed to have them back in my life full time and will fight tooth and nail for them to stay for good now. Its like i one the lottery.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by 1899b

I am thankful and overwhlemed to have them back in my life full time and will fight tooth and nail for them to stay for good now. Its like i one the lottery.

Our fingers are crossed for you and the children. Make sure you fight hard to get some councelling support. At the age your kids are it will be critical to helping them get through it will as much confidence as they can. In any split family...kids lacking confidence and the love and attention of at least one parent can be devastating.

As the kids get older they start closing the doors in their minds and refuse to listen and absorb what they need to cope. I have seen it first hand with friends etc.

Fingers crossed!

[beansgunsghandi]

I love how a discussion on any drug always goes to meth right away, and any comment on pot is then taken to be a pro-meth comment...

Pot is not meth. Pot can be dangerous, but it's just not "DEATH!!!" Run for the hills, the pot zombies are coming! I'm more worried about the drunks driving by a factor of about 1,000.

I get the feeling that a few zealots on here want to try more of the same thing that hasn't worked in the last 50 years or so. Put more people in jail; yeah, that's worked great for the Americans now hasn't it? 1 in 100 people in jail there, more than any other country in the world, huge cost to taxpayers, most of it drug-related. Massive drain on the whole country. Canada is slightly more enlightened fortunately, even most cops realize that busting people for pot is a flat-out waste of their time. As for dealers selling to kids, you obviously haven't been in a junior or high school in decades. Kids are good businessmen, want to kill the kid selling pot in high school? Or kill the kid bootlegging liquor? I would bet top dollar that more than a few people on here were that kid, or have kids who are. Maybe kill 'em all? Yep, now we're making sense...

It always amazes me how people can want more of something that flat-out doesn't work. Current pot policy reminds me of a guy I worked with years ago who would routinely cut 2x4s a 1/4 too short and then cut a new one 1/4 shorter than the last one. Somehow it made sense to him, ad somehow pot is still illegal except when it's "medicine." So pot is bad except when it isn't. Get another 2x4, this one's still too short.

[beansgunsghandi]

That sounds like one heck of a tough situation, a sincere good luck and strength to you. Prescription meds are a complete mess and likely doing as much or more damage than the street stuff. Good on you for being there, it will get better.

[Ken07AOVette]

Hate to say it, but the flame suit is still in spec, so here goes


If I had the power, every single person doing, selling, making, transporting, illegal drugs would get a 1 way ticket to the bottom of the ocean.

Imagine all the scourge wiped off the earth. Heavenly.

[1899b]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Hate to say it, but the flame suit is still in spec, so here goes


If I had the power, every single person doing, selling, making, transporting, illegal drugs would get a 1 way ticket to the bottom of the ocean.

Imagine all the scourge wiped off the earth. Heavenly.

Ken, i understand your stance and from everything I have witnessed here you are a very compasionate and sympatheitc individual. With that said, when there are family members and faces involved its kind of hard to be so concrete in that thinking. Even though my exwife prioritized this terrible lifestyle over the overall well being of her kids, its still my childrens mother and for their sake, I hope this is rockbottom and she will better herself. I do undertstand your perspective.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Bushmaster

I think we should legalize drugs...the war on drugs is over and we lost.
We should have safe houses where these guys can go and buy their drugs, very cheap or even supplied free. The amount of money that would save our police forces, etc. Would be astronomical. Pot should be sold at the corner store and taxed accordingly.

I didn't read the whole thread but I figured that I'd bring politics into it......

Isn't that what Jack Layton would like to see? Personally, I like Steven Harper's idea of building more prisons and filling them by bringing in harsher sentences for offenders. The Liberal plan (whoever is leading that party now) of giving free hugs to criminals and sending them home definitely hasn't seemed to work that well.

Peace Maaaaan!

[Redfrog]

"It always amazes me how people can want more of something that flat-out doesn't work. Current pot policy reminds me of a guy I worked with years ago who would routinely cut 2x4s a 1/4 too short and then cut a new one 1/4 shorter than the last one. Somehow it made sense to him, ad somehow pot is still illegal except when it's "medicine." So pot is bad except when it isn't. Get another 2x4, this one's still too short."


Which Zealot said to continue doing the same thing? All the zealots I read agree it isn't working. It isn't a war if the bad guy only gets slapped.

It makes sense to me that if something doesn't fit, you may need a bigger hammer.

[Gust]

It's only two minutes long

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd4tugPM83c

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by 1899b

Ken, i understand your stance and from everything I have witnessed here you are a very compasionate and sympatheitc individual. With that said, when there are family members and faces involved its kind of hard to be so concrete in that thinking. Even though my exwife prioritized this terrible lifestyle over the overall well being of her kids, its still my childrens mother and for their sake, I hope this is rockbottom and she will better herself. I do undertstand your perspective.

Thanks B.

The single most important step I guess would be, here are the alternatives; stop immediately or die.

Those that want to die by their own hand could choose to reform, or take the alternative. 1 single chance only.

Should not be a tough choice, would you think?

If anyone here does drugs, would you choose to stop and live, or fight authority and die?

[Okotokian]

AGAIN???????????????????

The guys who argue for legalization value individual liberty, see the hypocracy of legalized alcohol and understand how legalization would lower crime and violence. The guys who argue against it see the damage drug use can do. Both viewpoints are right on the money. Pick your poison. I'm with the former group, but won't lose a minute of sleep if they are never legalized. Hypocrite? I guess....

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

"It always amazes me how people can want more of something that flat-out doesn't work. Current pot policy reminds me of a guy I worked with years ago who would routinely cut 2x4s a 1/4 too short and then cut a new one 1/4 shorter than the last one. Somehow it made sense to him, ad somehow pot is still illegal except when it's "medicine." So pot is bad except when it isn't. Get another 2x4, this one's still too short."


Which Zealot said to continue doing the same thing? All the zealots I read agree it isn't working. It isn't a war if the bad guy only gets slapped.

It makes sense to me that if something doesn't fit, you may need a bigger hammer.

Niether method works.

1) Punish offenders put in prison. Not working here you say? The law stopped me from doing drugs. Anyone else on the forum stayed away from drug as a result of consequences either dad's boot...mom's back hand or the police cuffs?

2) Don't punish offenders...let the business get out of control with more people having better access. So tell the kids drugs are not so bad...it is legal after all.

I believe you feel one is not working so the other one would? Not a premise I want for society to practice with.

I want some deterents in society on things that cause society lots of problems. Whether you provide free or subsidized drugs or drugs provided by for profit tax paying companies...the end result is still parents or kids on drugs ruining their lives.

Sure make it easier. Good choice and message to tell the kids.

In the end...the choice comes down to putting some controls and consequences in place versus a free for all.

Sigh

[Redfrog]

OK . If we are going to experiment with how we deal with drugs , let's try the hard line approach first. Capital punishment or life in prison depending on your level of involvement. Various stiff sentences for others involved in distribution. Complete forfeiture of all illegal gains and property.
Forced labor to offset costs of incarceration. Users go to jail or work in rehab.
Zero tolerance for users.

If after 20 years it looks like it's not working then we try the other approach. Hugs and puppies for users. Lots and lots of throw away kids. Political appointments for pushers,
Municipal. provincial or federal depending on your place in the distribution.

Hope this helps.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

OK . If we are going to experiment with how we deal with drugs , let's try the hard line approach first. Capital punishment or life in prison depending on your level of involvement. Various stiff sentences for others involved in distribution. Complete forfeiture of all illegal gains and property.
Forced labor to offset costs of incarceration. Users go to jail or work in rehab.
Zero tolerance for users.

If after 20 years it looks like it's not working then we try the other approach. Hugs and puppies for users. Lots and lots of throw away kids. Political appointments for pushers,
Municipal. provincial or federal depending on your place in the distribution.

Hope this helps.

Or let people who want to F themselves up do that. Right RF? Like I always tell me sons... "more jobs for you". I'm being serious. If a percentage of the population want to qualify themselves for minimum wage, if that...

[Redfrog]

Okie, I would agree but the way it works is some maroon eats a big steak dinner and a whole lot of people pay an hugely expensive price tag.


RE: the job market. I tried to drum into my kids' heads that the more a job pays and the more important the work, the less competition there is for the job. There are millions competing for the 'anything' minimum or low wage jobs, but only a handful of people trying to be chairman of the board at Ford or?

So you can compete against millions or a few.

[Shadow99]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Hate to say it, but the flame suit is still in spec, so here goes


If I had the power, every single person doing, selling, making, transporting, illegal drugs would get a 1 way ticket to the bottom of the ocean.

Imagine all the scourge wiped off the earth. Heavenly.

So lets step back a generation or so...1930's. And lets replace your phrase "illegal drugs" with "illegal alcohol"...would your stance be the same? Would sending bootlegers, and users to life in prison or death (as per your solution) cure the ills of alcohol? And what if 10/20 years from now, marijuana was made legal....? (I won't lump MJ in with narcotics...different ballpark). Again, would your solution work?

There are thousands upon thousands of people who use marijuana in a safe, respectable manor, just like there are thousands upon thousands who do the same with alcohol. Yet we still see crime, murders, spousal beatings, vehicle deaths, illegal appropriation, downfall of youth, etc, etc, attributed strictly to booze. So why should "pot" have such harsh penalties, when alcohol is perfectly "acceptable"?

Replace current day socials ills attributed to pot with the prohibition era and booze and you have the exact same dilemma.

[Redfrog]

Alcohol comparison to drugs is apples and bicycles.

The problems during prohibition were miniscule compared to the the ones involved in illegal drugs.

Columbian , cartel for booze? Mexican cartel for booze? Home invasions for Booze money? ETc. ETc.

"Yet we still see crime, murders, spousal beatings, vehicle deaths, illegal appropriation, downfall of youth, etc, etc, attributed strictly to booze. "

So the solution to this alcohol problem is to legalize drugs and make our problems much bigger?

[Shadow99]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Alcohol comparison to drugs is apples and bicycles.

The problems during prohibition were miniscule compared to the the ones involved in illegal drugs.

Columbian , cartel for booze? Mexican cartel for booze? Home invasions for Booze money? ETc. ETc.

So the solution to this alcohol problem is to legalize drugs and make our problems much bigger?

That is the same question that was raised before prohibition. Did making booze illegal decrease crime? Have a read:

http://www.albany.edu/~wm731882/orga...e1_final.html:

The following are statistics detailing how much worse crime got:

Police funding: INCREASED $11.4 Million
Arrests for Prohibition Las Violations: INCREASED 102+%
Arrests for Drunkenness and Disorderly Conduct: INCREASED 41%
Arrests of Drunken Drivers: INCREASED 81%
Thefts and Burglaries: INCREASED 9%
Homicides, Assault, and Battery: INCREASED 13%
Number of Federal Convicts: INCREASED 561%
Federal Prison Population: INCREASED 366%
Total Federal Expenditures on Penal Institutions: INCREASED 1,000%

And there was this little group of criminals that got their start with booze...what was their name now...oh yeah, the MAFIA. I'd say that, proportionately in line with the population, the devastation they wreaked on society was hardly "miniscule".

But to answer your question, no, I wouldn't say make ALL drugs legal. But decriminalize pot.

Again, I'm differentiating marijuana from Coke, Meth, H, etc. There are many benefits from marijuana, and it can be used responsibly. As for the other drugs...well the money saved from decriminalizing marijuana could go towards more resources to fight those drugs.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Shadow99

So lets step back a generation or so...1930's. And lets replace your phrase "illegal drugs" with "illegal alcohol"...would your stance be the same?

Yes.

The question is the same, should something that does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING GOOD OR HEALTHY AT ALL FOR ANYONE BE LEGAL?

No.

It will never happen, but I can dream of a drug free, crime free existence can I not?

[Redfrog]

I'm not denying that prohibition brought problems, but the beginning of the mafia wasn't one of them. There definitely was crime involved with alcohol and prohibition. There are also some serious problems with alcohol abuse.

However comparing alcohol and it's issues to the problems associated with drugs is like comparing a bad rash to cancer of the testicles and the brain and the liver and the colon.

Should we try to treat the rash and consider ourselves fortunate or should we see if we can get the full meal deal?

Or compare a slap in the face to a shotgun blast to the stomach.


I got a chuckle out of your stats. Imagine police spending went up 11.4 million dollars. about as much as the cops find in the trunk of one Acura in Calgary.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

I'm not denying that prohibition brought problems, but the beginning of the mafia wasn't one of them. There definitely was crime involved with alcohol and prohibition. There are also some serious problems with alcohol abuse.

However comparing alcohol and it's issues to the problems associated with drugs is like comparing a bad rash to cancer of the testicles and the brain and the liver and the colon.

Should we try to treat the rash and consider ourselves fortunate or should we see if we can get the full meal deal?

Or compare a slap in the face to a shotgun blast to the stomach.


I got a chuckle out of your stats. Imagine police spending went up 11.4 million dollars. about as much as the cops find in the trunk of one Acura in Calgary.

I got a 404 error code when I clicked on the link Redfrog, but I believe those stats are from the 1920s-1930s period....11.4 mill was probably a pretty sizeable increase to be spent statewide.

[Redfrog]

You're correct, I just thought how much times have changed. In Bodo, 11.4 million is still fair money for the circle I move in.