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  #61  
Old 05-30-2017, 02:41 PM
fish_e_o fish_e_o is offline
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Originally Posted by Talking moose View Post
Are they culling moose as well?
yes... potentially, if the cull goes ahead.
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  #62  
Old 05-30-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post
Unbeleivable! Let's just give more to the natives..... So let me see, it's racist if we just let white guys hunt them but it's not racist if we let natives in there to hunt? Hmmmm. Has the Gov't also realised what a money making opportunity this is? Doubt that they would see that if they auctioned off licenses they could make millions from hunters that would do more good for the wildlife in this province if used wisely. It could also be used to hire more conservation officers. Hunters pay a quater million to hunt with a special Bighorn license every year and I can bet they would pay a ton to hunt in Elk Island as well. Just another article to prove what no hunting will do to the wildlife and habitat they live in. Hunting is needed for the health of any species.
Good Gawd, everything comes down to money for you. Too much time with your American clients.
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  #63  
Old 05-30-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fish_e_o View Post
yes... potentially, if the cull goes ahead.
Wonder how many.... got to be some 55" plus in there...
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  #64  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pikergolf View Post
Good Gawd, everything comes down to money for you. Too much time with your American clients.
Open your eyes and tell me what is better then?
You want to wipe out an excess herd of Elk and moose and get nothing in return or do u want to get some money out of it and turn around and hire extra CO's, put money into habitat developement, sheep studies, predator control, predator studies, help the caribou and many other projects this province needs money for but does not help. These projects will better things for all Albertans including your narrow minded thoughts. Big picture bud....
Who knows even if the money was made then you wouldn't see the NDP reaching into your pocket and screwing with your hunting either....Castle area ring a bell.....

It has nothing to do with my Americans. I don't have anything to do with Big game outfitting and to tell you the truth they could shut down outfitting in Alberta all together and I would not give 2 hoots.
All you care about is filling a couple freezers for a year or 2 when you can benefit hunting for lifetimes to come.
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  #65  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post
Open your eyes and tell me what is better then?
You want to wipe out an excess herd of Elk and moose and get nothing in return or do u want to get some money out of it and turn around and hire extra CO's, put money into habitat developement, sheep studies, predator control, predator studies, help the caribou and many other projects this province needs money for but does not help. These projects will better things for all Albertans including your narrow minded thoughts. Big picture bud....
Who knows even if the money was made then you wouldn't see the NDP reaching into your pocket and screwing with your hunting either....Castle area ring a bell.....

It has nothing to do with my Americans. I don't have anything to do with Big game outfitting and to tell you the truth they could shut down outfitting in Alberta all together and I would not give 2 hoots.
All you care about is filling a couple freezers for a year or 2 when you can benefit hunting for lifetimes to come.
If taken in isolation, you're not wrong. The problem is the precedent it sets, and we all know how our stupid system of courts and government is obsessed with precedent. It opens the door for the government to sell tags for massive profit whenever they need revenue, which is pretty much every time they open their mouths. You would quickly see your resident opportunities disappear, and saying "no, only this time" won't help once we're sliding down that slope
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  #66  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:29 PM
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Not sure what you are talking about. We are already doing this with the sheep tags. One auctioned for non residents and one a raffle. If you were to do the same thing for Elk island what is the difference? Precedence has already been set
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  #67  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:36 PM
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That's a fight against the Government, I was replying to the statement that was made that there is no good that could come of it, that's an untrue statement.
I think what was meant by that is there would be no money generated to go towards the park and it's future efforts at population control if it was turned over to the indigenous people.
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  #68  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:38 PM
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Not sure what you are talking about. We are already doing this with the sheep tags. One auctioned for non residents and one a raffle. If you were to do the same thing for Elk island what is the difference? Precedence has already been set
That's one tag, with a reciprocal draw for residents. And yes it is the potential starting place for problems related to the sale of wildlife, despite how much good it has done.

they want a lot more than one or two elk killed. So it goes from three ministers tags for sale currently, to a hundred in elk island, to what next? Whether you see it or don't, this is how things go to hell.

(No offense intended Nube, I know you value resident hunting opportunities and I'm not trying to be a dink)
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  #69  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
I think what was meant by that is there would be no money generated to go towards the park and it's future efforts at population control if it was turned over to the indigenous people.


I'm not going to speculate on something, he made a statement that was wrong. Not sure how u know what he meant.


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  #70  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:54 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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I'm not going to speculate on something, he made a statement that was wrong. Not sure how u know what he meant.


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From reading and understanding the rest of the posts in this thread....
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  #71  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 3blade View Post
That's one tag, with a reciprocal draw for residents. And yes it is the potential starting place for problems related to the sale of wildlife, despite how much good it has done.

they want a lot more than one or two elk killed. So it goes from three ministers tags for sale currently, to a hundred in elk island, to what next? Whether you see it or don't, this is how things go to hell.

(No offense intended Nube, I know you value resident hunting opportunities and I'm not trying to be a dink)
I gotcha and appreciate your thoughts and I do not think you are trying to be a dink.
Yes they can sell a few tags and make money but they can also open it up to killing off X amount of cows per year as well to manage the numbers.

The park is seperated into 2 different areas that I know about. They could sell off X amount of Bull tags per side and then draw out a bunch of cow tags for the best case for everyone. Then people who want meat get it. Then money is made to benefit all Albertans if used correctly. If you open it up for a fee for all on bulls it isn't going to help anything and the tags won't be worth anything.

They easily could sell 4-6 tags for good money every year for bulls and harvest the desired effect worth of cows to keep numbers down to what they want.

Make sense? Would that not make the majority happy about things?
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  #72  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:10 PM
ryeguy21 ryeguy21 is offline
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nube - the govt is notorious for abusing money and spending it needlessly. Few people trust the govt to do the right thing in most cases and expect them to mess things up when they try do something nice.
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  #73  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:17 PM
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nube - the govt is notorious for abusing money and spending it needlessly. Few people trust the govt to do the right thing in most cases and expect them to mess things up when they try do something nice.
I don't trust hunters to do the right thing. those with money try and get the upper hand on those that don't. They can try and paint it anyway they want, but the more expensive you make it, the more people you eliminate as potential competitors. It seems the people that push this the most are outfitters.
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  #74  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:12 PM
fisher Gord fisher Gord is offline
 
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The President of AFGA, Doug has been to 2 public meetings on this subject already and has already given the parks people all the good info from Wainwright and Suffield. CWD does prevent relocating elk, and pushing them out won't solve the over abundance without upsetting the local farmers/landowner/grazing lease users. Federal parks options are native hunts and or public hunts by Alberta licensed hunters. If public hunters are used they realize that Alberta wildlife management has experience in organizing these hunts and would be responsible from Alberta licensed hunters. This low cost, low responsibility plan has a chance, oh bison are also overabundant in the park and TOO expensive to move compared to a cull. so go to the 3rd meeting, listen to the radio. be reasonable with the message that hunting is a good conservation tool.
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  #75  
Old 05-30-2017, 05:53 PM
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Well put, fisher Gord.
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  #76  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:10 PM
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Permission must never be sold for culling public wildlife. The cost of administrating the cull through a wide open draw should be covered and nothing more.

The guys with money love the auctioning of tags or sucking money out of wildlife anyway they can under the auspices of benefiting wildlife. Truthfully they only want to benefit themselves.
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  #77  
Old 05-30-2017, 06:13 PM
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Permission must never be sold for culling public wildlife. The cost of administrating the cull through a wide open draw should be covered and nothing more.

The guys with money love the auctioning of tags or sucking money out of wildlife anyway they can under the auspices of benefiting wildlife. Truthfully they only want to benefit themselves.
You and nube arnt allowed to play together anymore. Go to your room.
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  #78  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:28 PM
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Are they culling moose as well?


Nervous?
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  #79  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:35 PM
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Nervous?
Now thats funny.
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  #80  
Old 05-30-2017, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fisher Gord View Post
The President of AFGA, Doug has been to 2 public meetings on this subject already and has already given the parks people all the good info from Wainwright and Suffield. CWD does prevent relocating elk, and pushing them out won't solve the over abundance without upsetting the local farmers/landowner/grazing lease users. Federal parks options are native hunts and or public hunts by Alberta licensed hunters. If public hunters are used they realize that Alberta wildlife management has experience in organizing these hunts and would be responsible from Alberta licensed hunters. This low cost, low responsibility plan has a chance, oh bison are also overabundant in the park and TOO expensive to move compared to a cull. so go to the 3rd meeting, listen to the radio. be reasonable with the message that hunting is a good conservation tool.
Thanks for this info. Glad the AFGA has been providing some input. Kind of strange that 2 public meetings have already been held, and nothing was mentioned till now.
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  #81  
Old 05-30-2017, 08:14 PM
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Now thats funny.

Smoke him while he's talking but video him first so the story will have legs.

"Got this bastidge while he was ranting about the pros and cons of culls in National parks. Teach him to open his mouth."
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  #82  
Old 05-30-2017, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post
So for the guys that don't like my idea of auctioning off tags is is all about the rich getting what they want? Do you not see the benefits to the rest of Albertans with the money that would be made? Do you not see what good Cadomin sheep Auctions have been to benefit sheep on the mountain for ALL Albertans?
Ya we all hate seeing Rich people getting what they want but open your eyes to what the money could be used for. And I know for a fact that people would pay a ton of money to be able to have a tag for in there. We could make huge money for all kinds of projects in Alberta and even afford to hire a few more CO's with it. Seems like a lot of guys complain about not having this or that and don't realise you got to get the money for certain projects somehow.

The other side of things is we can have an added hunting opportunity and have it turn out to be a total Cluster gong show like Suffield and get nothing out of it to benefit anyone except for the freezer full of meat.
I agree with you of course the downside is it goes to the rich but I think its pretty selfish to say this isn't a good idea. The amount of money an auction like this would bring in would be well worth giving up a small chance at a tag. I am betting if these guys had the money to buy a tag many of them would change their minds. I would support a lottery as I do not have the funds nor would this hunt interest me.
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  #83  
Old 05-30-2017, 09:58 PM
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Thanks for this info. Glad the AFGA has been providing some input. Kind of strange that 2 public meetings have already been held, and nothing was mentioned till now.
There were 2 meeting but I think they were not what you would considered public and certainly not publicized
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  #84  
Old 05-30-2017, 10:55 PM
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I agree with you of course the downside is it goes to the rich but I think its pretty selfish to say this isn't a good idea. The amount of money an auction like this would bring in would be well worth giving up a small chance at a tag. I am betting if these guys had the money to buy a tag many of them would change their minds. I would support a lottery as I do not have the funds nor would this hunt interest me.
Theoretically is that happened, where the money goes is the 1,000,000 dollar question....if it went to hire even one officer directly or went to conservation it would have my support, if it goes to general Government coffers...forget it.

LC
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  #85  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:15 PM
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Theoretically is that happened, where the money goes is the 1,000,000 dollar question....if it went to hire even one officer directly or went to conservation it would have my support, if it goes to general Government coffers...forget it.

LC
I would agree as well with you lefty.
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  #86  
Old 05-30-2017, 11:38 PM
spellswrong spellswrong is offline
 
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Theoretically is that happened, where the money goes is the 1,000,000 dollar question....if it went to hire even one officer directly or went to conservation it would have my support, if it goes to general Government coffers...forget it.

LC
I completely agree
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  #87  
Old 05-31-2017, 08:27 AM
waterninja waterninja is offline
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I gotcha and appreciate your thoughts and I do not think you are trying to be a dink.
Yes they can sell a few tags and make money but they can also open it up to killing off X amount of cows per year as well to manage the numbers.

The park is seperated into 2 different areas that I know about. They could sell off X amount of Bull tags per side and then draw out a bunch of cow tags for the best case for everyone. Then people who want meat get it. Then money is made to benefit all Albertans if used correctly. If you open it up for a fee for all on bulls it isn't going to help anything and the tags won't be worth anything.

They easily could sell 4-6 tags for good money every year for bulls and harvest the desired effect worth of cows to keep numbers down to what they want.

Make sense? Would that not make the majority happy about things?

Nube, your idea of selling tags has a lot of merit, and having residents be able to hunt Cows at the same time sounds like a not bad suggestion. One problem I see is the time factor. I thought the whole idea was to cull the herd as quickly as possible back to 200 from 600. Sounds like they are destroying the parks habitat more and more every day. You would need to sell a lot of tags very quickly. And in a hunt like that, wouldn't a non res need a guide or at least a host?
By the by, what do you think an Elk bull tag could go for? I can't see more then 10,000.00 a tag, when you consider that a non res can already hunt bull elk with a guide or host.
I'm guesstimating that you would have to sell 10 tags at 10,000.00 to hire, train and equip one CO for one year. Even if you sold 50 tags for 10,000.00 you would hardly make a dent in the 400 Elk that have to be culled. Even if you could sell the tag for 50,000.00, (which I doubt), it still wouldn't make a dent in the herd. Too much time and too little money raised.
Perhaps once the cull is finished you could sell a couple Bull Elk tags every year to raise some money.
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  #88  
Old 05-31-2017, 09:25 AM
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I am, and always will be adamantly opposed to any sort of "pay to play" arrangement. However, Nube's idea about a bull/cow - auction/draw makes more sense than a straight auction.

But if funds are raised, to hell with hiring an extra fish cop. Split that money between pheasant release sites and Ducks Unlimited properties which actually offer hunting opportunities for the average joes (like most of us on this site).
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  #89  
Old 05-31-2017, 10:01 AM
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I was quite disappointed in the interview done on CHED today. The superintendent of Elk Island park was there to talk about the Elk problem and possible solutions. Off the hop the host started talking about Bison and their habits. Host asked about releasing wolves and was given a a simple no, and didn't like that. Then from some silly text about parking a truck on the side of the Hwy, and selling meat, host go's on to invent some sort of wild game restaurant idea, as if that were ever an option. Fellow from Elk Island must have thought he sure wasted his morning.
2 things did come out of the interview however.
... No case of CWD has been confirmed in Elk Island Park.
... There has been positive feedback from the Meti's and Treaty Indian people about a cull hunt. Go figure. Not one word about any prior meetings where AFGA might have put foreward the idea of resident Albertan's being allowed to hunt. Sounded a little like thats the way the authorities are leaning. I have a bad feeling that AB resident hunter's need not apply. Perhaps the meeting tomorrow will be more on point, and some intellegent questions will be asked and answered.
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  #90  
Old 05-31-2017, 10:20 AM
Rocketfodder Rocketfodder is offline
 
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Wolves won't work
I think we can all agree wolves won't work. There is now way to keep them from targeting just elk and moose, let alone keeping them in the national park. Wolves are opportunistic and will go for the easy kill, the young, weak or those tasty Alberta beef just on the other side of the fence. It's too bad that the National Parks Superintendent didn't take a couple of minutes to educate the host.
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