the "REAL BALLISTICS TABLE"

I try to comment on the issue at hand and give my opinion.

And you do post statements with the sole purpose of instigating a confrontation as you have demonstrated in this thread.

My style is not to pull quotes from others ''opinions'' and then pick them apart and tell them why they are wrong.

Is it more credible to show a person why they are wrong,or to simply tell them that their opinion is wrong without showing them why?

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by whitetailhntr

Without a doubt, hunting shots are different than at the range shots. Know your rifle,know your load and most of all no your limitations. field practice on coyotes, gophers and such with centerfire rifles from field positions is effective for increasing your odds come hunting season. Some guys have the talent to shoot way out there and some don't.shooting at paper is one thing and game is another story all together.I always carry shooing sticks when hunting to help out and only take shots i can make....and sometimes i miss, I'm only human.

I agree.
I started with a mono-pod thinking it would be the answer , and had some success with it. Much better than free hand , but still not solid enough.
Then got another mono-pod to double as walking sticks and be able to use as a bi-pod. Better than a mono-pod , but still not great.
Now , I'm looking at getting a bi-pod and a mono-pod to use as walking sticks and have a tri-pod for the spotting scope and a shooting rest.
Tha should cover all my shooting issues !!

Ya right..... I come to the conclusion...it never ends....

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by stubblejumper

And you do post statements with the sole purpose of instigating a confrontation as you have demonstrated in this thread.



Is it more credible to show a person why they are wrong,or to simply tell them that their opinion is wrong without showing them why?

The difference , Bud , is that you think others are ''wrong'', as you indicate in the above statement.
As I've said before , to win these debates is futile. Everyone's right....everyone's wrong.
Unfortunately , my weakness is the overtones of ego and the horn-blowing comments , that get me hooked.
I'll just leave it at that.

Unfortunately , my weakness is the overtones of ego and the horn-blowing comments ,

Then the solution is easy,cut back on your ego,and stop making those comments.

[duffy4]

Mountain Guy and Stubblejumper

Contrary to what you guys may think, the rest of us board members do not come here to read you two acting like a couple of children insulting each other. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the thread, poison pen each other by PMs and spare us, please.

Robin in Rocky

Contrary to what you guys may think, the rest of us board members do not come here to read you two acting like a couple of children insulting each other. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the thread, poison pen each other by PMs and spare us, please.

Until the accusations and insinuations were made by Mountain Guy,I feel that my posts were very relevant to the thread.Even the Cat outright stated that he thought Mountain Guy was on this thread to troll.
As to private messages,I don't see the point of continuing a confrontation on in the form of private messages where it escalates to swearing and use of the "F" word as you yourself have done.

[nekred]

I agree cat there are more variables than distance.... I covered many of them.... But the technological improvements that are now in the hands of hunters vs. 20 years ago was my point....

Case in point is this ballistic discussion..... 40 years ago who was interested in ballistics.... whenusing open sights!....

When using a 44 mag, 30/30 or 303 british was balistics as much of a concern.... Almost all hunting shots were within maximum point blank range...

Nowadays with the equipment improvements it is a different story.

But not at exclusion of shooter. The reason many kids today that have never held a gun can learn to shoot so well because they have fired thousands if not millions of simulated shots from video games!....

The most important variable as always is the shooter but today's equipment helps remove some of the things that were shooter variables in the past.....

One example is how many people have bipods, or shooting sticks now!....

Don't discount the new hunters as being irresponsible shooters trying to go beyond their capabilities.... with the equipment and knowlege available a new shooter has a much larger advantage today than 30 years ago!....

Range time is still important but not the end all be all!..... I shoot maybe 30 centrefire rounds a year now but 1000's of rimfire rounds!..... and I can still hit what I shoot at!..... because of good equipment!.... and once you have the ability with a rifle the law of diminishing returns on effort it is not worth my while to practice any more because I can do what I do because i know my limitations. i would have to burn 100x more rounds to gain the proficiency to stretch another 200 yards... heck i am a good enough hunter i will get 200 yards closer!....

And back to theoriginal topic.... real life always removes the assumptions of theory....

The theoretical ballistic table is usually good but the real one is much different.

Now the point i think you and I agree on Cat..... Looking at a ballistic table does not determine the max range we should shoot at... that can only be discovered by shooting and determining windage accuracy!...

[catnthehat]

Pretty much both of us are on thew same page, Nekred.

40 years ago there were lots of shooters competing at 1,000 yards with irons and optics, but I agree , there are many more today, and the technology is there, but the human element still needs to be trained to do it.
In the hunting area however , there was a small core doing it.
Cat

[nekred]

I think another advantage now is beingable to set trigger pulls very light without havin set triggers.....

The 100 yard shooters of past eons were very goodshooters.. can you imagine what some of them would do now with the avialable equipment....

one point I did not make is that some people rely so much on the new technology that if they were given an lat 1800's Sharps rifle with open sights they would not be able to hit the broadside of a continent....at 500yards yet these often shot a mite further than that!....

That is where shooting lots of bullets helps!.....

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by nekred

I think another advantage now is beingable to set trigger pulls very light without havin set triggers.....

The 100 yard shooters of past eons were very goodshooters.. can you imagine what some of them would do now with the avialable equipment....

one point I did not make is that some people rely so much on the new technology that if they were given an lat 1800's Sharps rifle with open sights they would not be able to hit the broadside of a continent....at 500yards yet these often shot a mite further than that!....

That is where shooting lots of bullets helps!.....

Believe it or not, the same guys that were winning then are winning now!!
Our equipment 40 years ago was not much different as it is now, except for different materials in stocks, etc.
people like Ken Richy, Paul marion, Art Grundy, Edson Warner and others are still in the game, and if you ever get behind on a string with ANY of these gentlemen, you will have a VERY hard time regaining any ground.
They all shoot best when conditions are worst - or rather, their scores do not drop a whole bunch wjhen the weather turns bad.
This is the sign of a master class shooter.

The World 1 mile record shot a few years back was done on a Hart barrel ( they have been in bussiness for ions), a savage 110 action, and a LAMINATED stock!! the Scope used was a nightforceIIRC, but an RTB Unertl will do thhe job well as well, and they have not really chnged in 50 years.

Bullets are not much different, some of the powder has changed, but the fact remains that target shooting is just danged fun, and part of that is experimenting!

Cat

[catnthehat]

As far as BPCR goes, that is a whole different kettle of fish, for sure.

Handloading rules here, as does being able to shoot with irons.
However, for hunting purposes, 150 max is great for the big smokers.
If you make it up to the Fort for our Rifle rodeo, Ill let you ave a few shots with some of mine at the 1,000!
Cat

[nekred]

I believe it!.... once a shooter always a shooter!.....

But it seems easier now for new shooters to get very proficient....I am mostly refering to the hunter style shooters vs. target shooters.... As time goes on you see more hunters using equipment that used to be more in the realm of the target world!....

[Jester]

You guys are way to technical for me..The way I see it is if I can hit it good then I will shoot,if I can't then I won't shoot.

My longest was 376 paces on a deer...I don't know what that is in yards but then niether did the deer..
Keep in mind that this was a fluke..everything just happened to line up so to say.
I have also passed on 30 yard shots because I couldn't get a good shot because of the trees..I hate when that happens..

Oh well....to each thier own I guess..

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Jester

You guys are way to technical for me..The way I see it is if I can hit it good then I will shoot,if I can't then I won't shoot.

My longest was 376 paces on a deer...I don't know what that is in yards but then niether did the deer..
Keep in mind that this was a fluke..everything just happened to line up so to say.
I have also passed on 30 yard shots because I couldn't get a good shot because of the trees..I hate when that happens..

Oh well....to each thier own I guess..

That is exactly what my first post was saying also.
people sometimes get too wrapped up in the technical stuff.

I can hunt with a Snider moving a .577 bullet at 1,100 FPS , a flatbow at 190FPS, or a 6.5WSM with a 140 grain bullet at over 3,000FPS.
Ine must make allowances for their ability to use each piece of gear.....
Cat