Quality Trout Fisheries in Alberta

[huntsfurfish]

Hey tosh are ya happy now that Im using the button?

For short posts I will concede, it is better.

I have no problem conceding a point if it warrants it.

(unlike some on here).

[huntsfurfish]

On a bit of a side note/off topic if OK with the OP.(Bigtoad)
Seeings how spec touches on this type of question periodically.

What are your backgrounds, business or jobs? To all posters on here.

Might be interesting to see.

I"ll start.



Im a Lab Analyst, water quality, Lethbridge. 35yrs in june

[michaelmicallef]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

On a bit of a side note/off topic if OK with the OP.(Bigtoad)
Seeings how spec touches on this type of question periodically.

What are your backgrounds, business or jobs? To all posters on here.

Might be interesting to see.

I"ll start.



Im a Lab Analyst, water quality, Lethbridge. 35yrs in june

Grow up!

[McLeod]

Triploids are here to stay as they grow bigger and live longer which may result in some of our stocked lakes producing a few bigger fish than they do now.But more importantly they can't reproduce so we stop the risk of having not native Rainbows , Brookies and Browns ending up in waters where we have native fish and displacing those natives.

It will be those triploids that that result in a new Alberta records and when it comes to Rainbows I will be happy about that because for over 30 years
the Maligne record has stood and David you and I both know that fish was not from Maligne !

[Sundancefisher]

Chubby is the smartest on the thread.

I am going ice fishing...but...I will be back. Don't you all post too much.

Cheers

Sun

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Prud nice fish
so did everyone who fish Bullshead catch 25 inch trout.. last year

the guys out here caught 25 inch trout and they have pics of more too
so your point is

thats a 3 yr old fish some lakes less if you have a great lake like you say you have why are they not 10 lbs 28 inches to 30

5 yr old fish here made it to 20# 4 Alberta record
my brookie was 13 yrs old btw

can you flyfish in any Alberta rainbow lakes
can you do catch and release in any lakes in Alberta
can you not take 5 rainbows if you want in any Alberta lakes that allow 5 take
do you have a chance at a 5lb fish at any rainbow Lake.. Yes or NO.. legal answer please (no saying but) Judge said please answer Question
no further question's

Thank-you for your time you can go now

Are these questions for me? I will answer those in bold (because they are the only actual questions that are not rhetorical AFAI can tell).

First, I have no idea how other people did on the lake. Everyone seemed to be having a good time, whether they were catching fish or not (even the kids).

As for my point - I was responding to YOUR QUESTION:

Originally Posted by Speckle55 View Post
"so if you guys know your lakes what was the biggest for Bullshead .. Police Outpost.. Muir.. did anyone catch a 4 lb fish ?"


As for why are there not 10lb fish in Bullshead, there may be, however the vast majority of fish over 20" that are caught by the spin fishing guys are killed and kept - all legally and within the regulations - and that is their right as the rules stand. I have not killed a fish at Bullshead. My choice. Am I against killing fish? Not at all. I am however against killing the biggest fish in the lake. When I catch a 16-18" trout there I would just love to take one or two home. When I catch one over 20", I just can't bring myself to kill it, for not only am I depriving myself of the opportunity to catch it again, but also everyone else who comes to that lake for the opportunity to catch a fish of that size. For those unfamiliar with what I causes me to only want to keep smaller fish for the table, it is called a "conservation ethic".

As I stated earlier I have had a few "30 fish" days there, when the stars and moon all aligned, and the majority (90%+) were in the 17-19" range (a couple around 14" and a few over 20"). Is that because that is the maximum size the average fish will become? No. It is because we (the fishermen of Bullshead) kill any fish that grows over 20". A slot size would allow a number of fish to grow larger - much larger - if they get the chance. With a maximum size limit instead of a minimum, I would fully expect Bullshead to produce 10lb trout.

To answer your last question about 5lb trout at any Rainbow Lake, I would have to say NO. I do not believe so. I do not believe Michelle has any fish that big, neither does Mami, Beauvais, Beaver Mines or Lees (I have seen a couple BIG RBTR (rainbow trout) from Lees and Beaver Mines but they did appear to be brood stock - worn fins, etc. Beavais has trout over 5lbs, but not RBTR, only browns (cause they eat the RBTR).

So Speck, I have tried to answer your questions. I have tried to only relate information that is directly applicable to your questions. I have not given you my history of Steelhead fishing in coastal streams, the biggest steelhead from large rivers, or Chalkstream fishing in England - because it is not relevant in this conversation.

Do you have other questions you would like clear, direct answers to? Please ask without the rhetoric or sarcasm and I will be happy to answer the best that I can.

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by McLeod

for over 30 years
the Maligne record has stood and David you and I both know that fish was not from Maligne !

Ooooooooh. I sense a scandal! PM's are welcome...

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

I"ll start.

Im a Lab Analyst, water quality, Lethbridge. 35yrs in june

Interesting.

I am an environmental consultant (what does that even mean???).

What it means is I have an extensive background and wide ranging experience in wildlife, fisheries, habitat and ecology.

In fish-related-experience, I have worked in a number of ocean fisheries, including monitoring the sea urchin and krill (Euphausiid) fisheries on the Pacific Coast, assisted with research on Coastal Cutthroat Trout, salmonid enhancement projects, environmental monitoring and site restoration associated with logging activities.

I also do some work with invasive species and species at risk, but lately it has been meetings, meeting, meetings...

Most of my work these days is in facilitation / consultation of large scale infrastructure projects and federal environmental legislation (but it changes yearly).

Well that is three posts in a row. Time to get back to work.

[huntin'fool]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

So Speck, I have tried to answer your questions. I have tried to only relate information that is directly applicable to your questions. I have not given you my history of Steelhead fishing in coastal streams, the biggest steelhead from large rivers, or Chalkstream fishing in England - because it is not relevant in this conversation.

Do you have other questions you would like clear, direct answers to? Please ask without the rhetoric or sarcasm and I will be happy to answer the best that I can.

Beautiful, Pudel. I hope speckey hasn't inhaled too much yet today, and maybe, just maybe, you will have made him understand ...OH wait!! I just heard Bass Pro Shop just entered a new Alberta Record Rainbow!! Wonder what the productivity is like, maybe they need aerators!!! Hey guys, do you like my hair?!?!?! It's my new triploid infusion formula!!!

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by McLeod

Triploids are here to stay as they grow bigger and live longer which may result in some of our stocked lakes producing a few bigger fish than they do now.But more importantly they can't reproduce so we stop the risk of having not native Rainbows , Brookies and Browns ending up in waters where we have native fish and displacing those natives.

It will be those triploids that that result in a new Alberta records and when it comes to Rainbows I will be happy about that because for over 30 years
the Maligne record has stood and David you and I both know that fish was not from Maligne !

Yes .. i agree .. still have quams .. and the Alberta Record is a Triploid natural(Quote)

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

As for why are there not 10lb fish in Bullshead, there may be, however the vast majority of fish over 20" that are caught by the spin fishing guys are killed and kept - all legally and within the regulations - and that is their right as the rules stand. I have not killed a fish at Bullshead. My choice. Am I against killing fish? Not at all. I am however against killing the biggest fish in the lake. When I catch a 16-18" trout there I would just love to take one or two home. When I catch one over 20", I just can't bring myself to kill it, for not only am I depriving myself of the opportunity to catch it again, but also everyone else who comes to that lake for the opportunity to catch a fish of that size. For those unfamiliar with what I causes me to only want to keep smaller fish for the table, it is called a "conservation ethic".

As I stated earlier I have had a few "30 fish" days there, when the stars and moon all aligned, and the majority (90%+) were in the 17-19" range (a couple around 14" and a few over 20"). Is that because that is the maximum size the average fish will become? No. It is because we (the fishermen of Bullshead) kill any fish that grows over 20". A slot size would allow a number of fish to grow larger - much larger - if they get the chance. With a maximum size limit instead of a minimum, I would fully expect Bullshead to produce 10lb trout.

actually, according to terry clayton, the southern area fisheries biologist, bullshead trout will top out pretty close to where they are. he says their lifespan is such that 25 inch 6 pound fish are at the end of their lives and anglers may just as well keep them as they will die naturally soon anyway. i grilled him about exactly what you are saying Pud, and thats the answer he gave me. bullshead is not a highly productive lake......now imagine if cavan had those kind of restrictions....

also, if you know a trick or two and time your fishing trip right, 100 plus fish days are not out of the question. in our family last season, robin had the biggest bullshead fish. it was a whisker over 25 inches and id estimate weight right at 6 pounds. it got to the boat just as a wicked dump of hail began to pound us so we got her in the water asap and got to shore......no pic.

also huntsfurfish....if you care, notice i quoted, but deleted the part of the quote that was not what i responded to. not being an arse, just trying to help.

[Speckle55]

Prud.. i am seriously impressed and agree with your angling etiq ..but some are better anglers than most... do you agree that old saying that %10 of anglers catch 90% of fish.. so if you and i, dave doc sun tosh gus hunt sorry if i missed anyone..went into a small lake we could kill it in a week..

btw i sit on the public side of your meeting,s sometimes
Selenium now Athabasca Rainbow now Threatened

My bio is more the doer kind i have those WR.. Prov.. etc
i am a active Club Member and teach fishing and do mentoring
i believe that fishing is a art and i am always learning

but i also believe than sometimes changes may benifet some but takes away from the whole.. especially when Alberta has so few lakes.. people have said i have 10 lake rbt in 35 minutes .. not i have 2.. so if you take 1 make C & R the pressure on that 1 lake doubles and there will be no room like you see down there.. your lakes have super high stocking rates or are double stocked the most popular because of pressure ..now you want to take out of system 3 lakes down there .. is it a big deal yes it is .. do you have the fish and Game clubs on board .. no you dont even belong to one.. do you see what i mean..

i can live with what is done now and i can key in on specific lakes if i want bigger because i don,t want to hurt the Whole as they are the future of my Art..

i started as a bait angler with my mom as my Dad worked.. food for thought

[packhuntr]

Im not so sure anyone should be listening to anything Terry Clayton says, but thats just my, and many other angler's opinion. Ive heard him speak about our disasterous walleye situations and biodiversity in southern reservoirs, and it will put you on your heels LOL!

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Im not so sure anyone should be listening to anything Terry Clayton says!

the mans job is fish biologist. i have no reason to not believe him when he presents facts. now when he tries to represent his opinion or say that he is in touch with the opinions or anecdotal eveidence of residents, well thats not the same story.

as for what he has said about bullshead fish topping out, most of my fishing there is in a boat. when touring the lake, the vast majority of dead fish i find are of the 23 plus inch size. im sure some are a result of poor handling techniques upon release, but it would seem that some likely are dying maturally at the end of their lives. i have yet to hear of a fish approaching even 8 pounds let alone 10....but there may be the rare exception.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

K what part about how its done is not man made .. you take eggs stripped from a female rainbow add stripped(milked) male sperm after they are fertilized .. add the pressure and warm water ,,,put in egg process and into hatchery system then plant..

I was being facetious Speck.

If you take the first part of your sentence... "you take eggs stripped from a female rainbow add stripped(milked) male sperm" and the last part of your sentence... "put in egg process and into hatchery system then plant."

Whatcha got? Man made trout?

So what's the dif if you add pressure and warm water? (sterile trout). It's still man made.

[Speckle55]

Doc i posted triploids were man made u question what i meant man made ? chubb posted researcher created .. i agreed .. end of post


Sometimes you give a bio $10000.00 to make a fisheries you get a $10000.00 fishery.. if you gave Terry a 2 billion budget ..wow

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

the mans job is fish biologist. i have no reason to not believe him when he presents facts. now when he tries to represent his opinion or say that he is in touch with the opinions or anecdotal eveidence of residents, well thats not the same story.

as for what he has said about bullshead fish topping out, most of my fishing there is in a boat. when touring the lake, the vast majority of dead fish i find are of the 23 plus inch size. im sure some are a result of poor handling techniques upon release, but it would seem that some likely are dying maturally at the end of their lives. i have yet to hear of a fish approaching even 8 pounds let alone 10....but there may be the rare exception.

Agree

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

went into a small lake we could kill it in a week..

...

but i also believe than sometimes changes may benifet some but takes away from the whole.. especially when Alberta has so few lakes.. people have said i have 10 lake rbt in 35 minutes .. not i have 2.. so if you take 1 make C & R the pressure on that 1 lake doubles and there will be no room like you see down there.. your lakes have super high stocking rates or are double stocked the most popular because of pressure ..now you want to take out of system 3 lakes down there .. is it a big deal yes it is .. do you have the fish and Game clubs on board .. no you dont even belong to one.. do you see what i mean..

i started as a bait angler with my mom as my Dad worked.. food for thought

I will try and address your comments in order:

First, could 8 proficient fisherman (flyfisherman?) kill a small lake in 40 man/days of fishing? Quite possibly. Could 40 powerbait danglers with very limited experience do the same thing? Probably. I would hope that the experienced group would be less likely to fill their creels to the brim without consideration of the consequences of their actions. The second group, I would be less confident that they would "get it" in time. My opinion, from my observations and experience of 35 years of fishing.

Second, I disagree. Changing the regs on SOME lakes benefits SOME, and takes away from SOME - not the 'whole'.

Third, see above - and: I think you might be surprised at what happens to your "1" remaining lake. I'll give you an example. Michelle Reservoir is only 15 minutes or so farther than Bullshead, but has a 5 fish a day limit. It is just as windy, just as exposed, and roughly the same size (I could look it up, but I don't have time, but it is a small/medium sized lake). Also, it is fully accessible like Bullshead, in other words there is no part of the lake you can not access by foot - unlike Police, which requires a boat to fish a large portion of the shoreline. Anyway, on any given day there are 10 to 100 times more people on Bullshead. Most times I drive past Michelle there is only one or two people on it (if any at all), while there are dozens at Bullshead. So which lake do you think the pressure will double on??

Fourth, are the local fish and game clubs on board? No. They are not. I believe that the majority of members of these clubs do not care about the issue because they either do not fish (hunters) or they are walleye/pike/perch fishermen. There is a vocal element in our club that screams "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" every time the issue comes up and treats you like a pedophile/rapist for having a contrary opinion. Frankly, I have about had it with this type of person and will be voicing MY opinion more strongly in the future.

Fifth, I am on the exec of the LFGA. I have been for 6 years now. I was the fish chair (3 chair positions for me) for a short period of time this winter, however we found a young lady with a lot of drive who is taking the club forward, planning a Children's Fishing Derby on Mami (Payne) Lake for the end of May. Everyone is invited! And yes, it is a 5 per day lake.

Lastly, I too started as a worm dangler, roe chucker, oolichan jigger and herring moocher. I have killed more fish than I care to admit, and I have eaten every one (except for the little bullheads we used to catch in the creek which people told us were detrimental to our trout and salmon populations - couldn't be the clearcut logging from mountain top to mountain top - nope, it was those damn bullheads.... and dogfish.... and rock cod... and bull trout...). But I outgrew that phase.

I remember my dad, uncle, cousin and I out fishing Lingcod (the sal****er version - just as yummy). I think in those days you were allowed five each. I later realized we were fishing during the spawn, and were hammering lings like you would trout during a travelling sedge hatch. Somewhere around 12 or 13 dead fish in the boat, I started to get a bad feeling; a feeling like we were doing something wrong. We were well within the regulations of the time, with more room for fish, but it just wasn't right. The next ling I caught I brought to the surface and just watched for a while, then, to my uncle's utter disbelief and anger I reached down with the pliers and popped her free (it was about a 18-20 lb fish, the biggest of the day, and unknown to me at the time, probably a female).

My uncle freaked. He yelled at me and said that if I did that again, he would throw me back! Well that p'sd me off, and I let loose with a diatribe, including more then a few choice words (that I had learned from him and various logging camps I had stayed in with my dad), about if he wanted to be an a-hole and kill every fish in the ocean that was his choice, but it was MY fish, and it was my choice to RELEASE it. And NO, he could not use my limit to catch more then his share. Did I mention I was 10 years old or so?

My dad just looked at my uncle and said, "You heard him. I guess we are done for the day."

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Doc i posted triploids were man made u question what i meant man made ? chubb posted researcher created .. i agreed .. end of post

facetious: not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark. 2. amusing; humorous. 3. lacking serious intent.

The point being, all of our stocked trout are "man made". If you are against triploids for that reason are you then against all stocked trout?

[GaryF]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

people have said i have 10 lake rbt in 35 minutes .. not i have 2

Are these not the lakes in your area?

Hinton F&G Pond(300)
Obed(22,000)
Pedley Resevoir(500)
Wildhorse Lake 1(Brookies)(2500)
Wildhorse Lake 2(RBT)(8500)
Kinky Lake(Brookies)(7000)
Jarvis Creek Pond(700)
Dunn Lake(Brookies)(3000)
Petite Lake(2000)
Emerson Lake(5000)
Mary Gregg Lake(4000)

All of these are within 35-40 Mins of Hinton, all of them stocked by SRD. I'm not tryin to be an azz here, but a lot of any of this goes towards credibility and honesty.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by GaryF

Are these not the lakes in your area?

Hinton F&G Pond(300)
Obed(22,000)
Pedley Resevoir(500)
Wildhorse Lake 1(Brookies)(2500)
Wildhorse Lake 2(RBT)(8500)
Kinky Lake(Brookies)(7000)
Jarvis Creek Pond(700)
Dunn Lake(Brookies)(3000)
Petite Lake(2000)
Emerson Lake(5000)
Mary Gregg Lake(4000)

All of these are within 35-40 Mins of Hinton, all of them stocked by SRD. I'm not tryin to be an azz here, but a lot of any of this goes towards credibility and honesty.

hhmmmmm
I said lake and RBT// pedely dead .dof warning at road
Petite 45 minutes took me 1 hr this year
Mary Gregg same ..walk in longer
Emerson same 45 minutes or longer
others ponds dont want to fish as the Whole fish there

maybe you speed i don,t Willow Creek Cowboy(RCMP) likes you guys

is that honest enough for you!!! so you have a come back on Honesty please respond we were talking about RBT

[SNAPFisher]

Man, this thread is going no where. Except to a "quality" ending!

Still nothing has changed for me. Same thinking before this started. Which is that more variety in stocking and regulations would be a good thing for this province.

P.S. Go out fishing you old farts. It's good for the soul.

[GaryF]

"others ponds dont want to fish as the Whole fish there"

Huh? Not sure what you mean by this.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by michaelmicallef

Grow up!

I have offended you? To bad, I was curious about some of the posters as to the posts that were made. Pudel in particular, sundance biologist hmmm. Doc also as well as others.

I guess Im the only one that finds it interesting that biologists and environmental consultants are posting some pretty good stuff.

If you dont like it to bad.

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

On a bit of a side note/off topic if OK with the OP.(Bigtoad)
Seeings how spec touches on this type of question periodically.

What are your backgrounds, business or jobs? To all posters on here.

Might be interesting to see.

I"ll start.



Im a Lab Analyst, water quality, Lethbridge. 35yrs in june

im retired.....so whats the point?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

I have offended you? To bad, I was curious about some of the posters as to the posts that were made. Pudel in particular, sundance biologist hmmm. Doc also as well as others.

I guess Im the only one that finds it interesting that biologists and environmental consultants are posting some pretty good stuff.

If you dont like it to bad.

LOL...I just had someone send me a long resume as to why they are such a good fishermen.

I just want to say...I have no doubt everyone can catch fish...however it does not mean everyone has 4 or more years of education in biology and fisheries related courses as well as years of experience. Therefore sometimes it can be frustrating that someone truly believe they know it all without any training. We have seen a number of people get frustrated on this thread and the culprit just does not get it...that is fine now that there are enough posts to show the point...but a bad post based on anything but fact can be blown up and remembered to the detriment of the issue at hand. So I will keep correcting them if they are serious enough.

There is no secret that I worked as a biologist...however the lack of money...long hours (800 hours of unpaid overtime each year)...2 weeks vacation...16 hours days sometimes...out of the city 8 months of the year...almost dying on the job had fate altered the circumstances slightly at least 6 times...I changed careers to have a life and a family.

I now work in the oil patch...pushing paper mostly. I like it and I can still volunteer with fish...and just to note...my company does not pay me to fish

I am a common sense kinda guy that likes facts and won't hesitate to confront misinformation that could be problematic to fishing. When younger speaking up was harder...now that I getting old I just don't like to put up with it. I love the passion fishermen bring to the table and just wish they expressed themselves better to politicians so we can help to improve things.

As for bad mouthing biologists etc...while I have not disagreed with Terry to date...if I did...his opinion should stand as he is the bio in charge. Unless you are working full time in any profession...you always have to give credit to the professional.

Specs agrees...so if the regional biologist reviews the lakes, consults fishermen and reviews the budget and feels it makes sense to make certain regulation changes...the Specs should agree with that also.

Gustav...I was not going to comment on your diatribe but...I no...I do not see myself as anything other than any other guy on this forum with an opinion...I do not see myself as oligarch...but your lashing me online is not going to intimidate me from making my opinion known if I feel like it...hence I am fine with your diatribe cause that is your opinion and more power to you. But you wrote something fundamentally wrong as evidenced on this thread but you can still see Tosh as a compromising force in your own mind...cause it is your opinion.

I get the sense you are trying to ease tension on the thread at times...which is fine...but don't tell me what I can and can not say.

Cheers

Sun

P.S. Back from fishing...only 4 large perch and 5 trout from 12 to 18 inches. Still nice to be out.

[huntsfurfish]

The point is I was curious, some sound very knowledgeble. Some educated in a related field others just dedicated fishermen.

Ok Ill tone it down

[Sundancefisher]

Specs.

You are asking a question that I answered as to what lakes are nearby so you can see if any 25 inch fish have come out of there.

As mentioned before finding one large trout in a lake is irrelevant to anything and you are just disproving your position...

Just saying a lake has produced one big fish means nothing...we need to know catch rates, size ranges, average size. A good basic population profile.

There is always a chance...one fish survived an insurmountable gauntlet of fishermen...

Just because one larger fish was caught...only proves bigger fish can be grown bigger with the proper regulations. For instance...the Giant Bluefin Tuna used to average over 1200 lbs in commercial harvest. Now they average closer to 500 lbs. So does catching one 1200 lber in a year mean the fishery is good again? No...it just means one lucky sod survived a little longer. The fishery is still bad and not improving. Until the average size of tuna starts to increase again...the population is still under stress from over harvest. Same principle here in Alberta with some rainbow trout lakes. Over harvest...stresses the population and the result is tiny rainbows. The other problem is over stocking causing critical food depletion.

It has nothing to do with the right "mix", genetics or fertilizer.

Specs...What lakes in the Hinton area do you like to fish for rainbows that have 5 a day regulations?

Thanks

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

The point is I was curious, some sound very knowledgeble. Some educated in a related field others just dedicated fishermen.

Ok Ill tone it down

Im not offended....rarely do i get to that emotion.

But heres a question.

The Government has a staff of highly 'book' smart guys and gals.
Everyone on the quality side claims a simple solution to repairing the fishery.
Most claim its financially benificial to adopt the plan to save money in stocking.
Im assuming that because everyone says...'it long over due...and...its about time, that it didnt take a genius fortune teller to predict this issue.

so my question is what have the highly educated trained professionals in the fisheries related fields been doing?

I remain JUST a fisherman.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

.

so my question is what have the highly educated trained professionals in the fisheries related fields been doing?

I remain JUST a fisherman.

they are trying to satisfy the wants, needs and desires of the majority of the people in this province based on the information they have. it is a tough job and no matter what there will never be 100% approval.




going back 51 pages to the original question, bullshead is the fishery i am most familiar with and i can assure you that it is far and away the most poular lake in the south. on any given day i can yak with guys from as far away as emdonton, claresholm or sundre (that has happened). i can promise you they arent making the trip to keep 1 fish for supper. it would be great to see a few more of these lakes exist so guys dont have to travel so far to enjoy a good thing.

now if we could just get the damn big game guys on board and save a wmu here and there for some trophy quality animals rather than maxing tags so everyone can shoot a runt.........