Sheep Part 3

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

What is this B/C stuff? Rams in the south can achieve 4/5 curl by age 4.5. Rams in the north require an average of 7.5 to reach 4/5 curl. Seems to me that a 3.5 year old ram in Montana should make 3/4 curl. In any case their most restrictive zones are less than our least restrictive zones, and the majority of their zones have no restriction for age/size whatsoever. Minutia does not detract from the concept.

Show me some numbers that state that the south averages 4.5 . Rams are killed at Cadomin and west of my place that are 4.5. Its not the norm in any of them including the south. A ram can reach legal at 28" also and some arent legal at 36 or 37. So if you shoot a 4.5 year old 30" sheep its bigger than a 5.5 year old ram that is legal at 36"? Lots of variables determin when a ram reaches legal stature.
Horn configuration can determine time to reach legality. Look a Vanssas ram that TJ posted out of the south. Not alot past legal and he says its 9.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Habitat? Density?

"Young bighorn ewes postpone primiparity when resources are scarce (Jorgenson et al., 1993a), and age of primiparity is often the first vital rate affected by increasing population density in ungulates (Gaillard et al., 2000)"

Density is lower in many zones in my area than it has been in alot of years. Winter habitat is up due to the lower numbers of elk and mule deer sharing winter pastures that these animals used to share.And milder temperatures and lower snow volumes in many areas.

[sheepguide]

.

[sheepguide]

You post all these studies that if a guy really wanted to could Google or search and find other studies that would contradict what yours are saying. A person could find a study to proove anything you wish these days.
I for one am more apt to listen to people that have personal observations and experiance. If gu
Why dont you talk about what you personaly have seen? What have you seen the populations doing and in what areas have you seen this. Where have you witnessed rutting behavior?

It doesnt even seem like you have ever hunted bighorns in your life. Maybe you have but many here just think your a computer flunky that looks up every bit of info he has.

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Are you kidding me? Really? You actually believe they are sentient beings? Or have you watched to much Disney. You really said that? Unbelievable. You truly couldn't have any less credibility after that statement LOL!


.

How come my dog will bark its fool head off till you put the bark collar on it , then you cant drag a bark out of her . Seems sentient enough to me

[209x50]

Originally Posted by flyguyd

How come my dog will bark its fool head off till you put the bark collar on it , then you cant drag a bark out of her . Seems sentient enough to me

Thats a conditioned response, she didn't know what it was before it was used on her.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 209x50

she didn't know what it was before it was used on her.

Neither did you.

Ever hear of Alex the Parrot.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by SLH

Neither did you.

Ever hear of Alex the Parrot.

Perhaps you didn't know what the collar did but I sure as heck had it figured out.

[209x50]

Ever hear of Alex the Parrot.

You are comparing a bird that was trained for 30 years to a sheep?!?!?! Really?

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 209x50

You are comparing a bird that was trained for 30 years to a sheep?!?!?! Really?

You need to read more about this topic, I know it is just a whacko scientist and they can manipulate anything but you might be surprised at some of the things coming out of that type of research.

Sheep to parrots how did that happen?

[209x50]

Sheep to parrots how did that happen?

Dunno, maybe because that is what the thread topic is? I thought you were making Alex pertinent to this discussion?

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Dunno, maybe because that is what the thread topic is? I thought you were making Alex pertinent to this discussion?

The thread topic was "Sheep to Parrots"?

I was just a little amazed at your comments about credibility considering some of your misinformed posts.

As for Alex there is a lot of info on the insights of animal intelligence and how that relates to their surroundings and day to day lives. Do a little research on Alex and you'll find that he understood language and because of the unique ability of some birds to "speak" could actually communicate ideas. That is not a "trained" response. This shows that we probably give way to little credence to animals understanding and awarenes of there own surroundings.

Anyone that has been around animals knows that there is a lot more going on in there than eating, sleeping and mating. Now I doubt any animal will be splitting the atom any time soon but to dismiss this and to say that someones credibility is in question for understanding this idea just shows that you haven't been exposed to some interesting research and haven't been that aware of the critters that surround you.

Now before I get the label; I like eating meat and I also hold the belief that most animals place is right beside the french fries and gravy.

[209x50]

And again you brought this up in relation to sheep how? My comment to Justin stands, Disney lied to him and bambi really couldn't talk. His belief that sheep know the park boundaries is and consciously decide not to cross is what started all this. If the sheep were that brilliant maybe we could get them to teach the hunters the boundaries, how to age and judge horn length. He is giving a non thinking animal a whole lot of credit for reasoning abilities that it doesn't have.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by 209x50

He is giving a non thinking animal a whole lot of credit for reasoning abilities that it doesn't have.

Has there been any studies on this?
Can you provide links to these studies?
Is this for all big game, or just bighorn sheep?
I find your info hard to beleive.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not calling it moronic or idiotic, just hard to beleive.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 209x50

And again you brought this up in relation to sheep how? .

That would have been... "Sheep to parrots how did that happen"? Sorry I didn't use the little smiley faces.

To which you replied... "Dunno maybe becuase thats what the thread topic is". So maybe you helped this along. Sorry I have to explain this to you.

As for bambi couldn't talk, I bet you have seen the video "talk to the elk", you probably own a grunt tube, a huchie mama and rattlin' antlers.

As for the "non thinking animal that doesn't have reasoning abilities" I suspect they have more than you are aware of which isn't that surprising.

But this tangent, as fun as it has been should probably end with your last comment as I know you won't let me end it, so that it can get back on track.

[Gulo gulo]

Originally Posted by Bowhunter

OK....APOS is part of the consultation process. No surprise there. Their harvest, as a result of their membership business activity, is part of the game management equation hence----stakeholder. Obviously, their executive are on the ball getting their foot in the door to look after their interests. Every group will do that. We may not like it but government has no choice but to respond. That said, we also know that the organizations that represent all of us are also on the ball and at the table and, I trust, will continue to look after us.
For what it's worth, I'd rather be heard last. Knowing what special interest groups and antis have up their sleeve can be defended with sound alternatives...if we know their position.

I don't know which organizations you are involved or how deeply you are involved, but I am am sure you know that the groups involved in the AOC have learned over the years that if we do not work together....government will pin us against one another....divide and conquer. You've know doubt seen plenty of evidence of that.
Anyway....thanks for the great debate... obviously you have passion and are concerned like the rest of us.

Gary

Hi Gary

I have been reading your posts and quite frankly I have some serious concerns. In the post above you seem to have done a little backpedalling in regards to APOS’s influence with the Government. At first you mentioned that APOS does not have a disproportionate advantage when influencing the government’s wildlife management practices; then in the post above you claim that “their executive are on the ball getting the foot in the door to look after their interests”. This is where the problem lies; “their interests”. Since APOS is a business first “their interests” are often at the expense of resident hunters. Let’s not beat around the bush here, APOS would make a lot more money if there were fewer residents to compete with. A great example of this is in Waterfowl outfitting industry and how it has squeezed out the resident hunters. Please don’t take my word for this, feel free to call any F&W officer who works along one of the major flyways and they will be more than happy to confirm this. Gary, you may not have had the opportunity to read all 1800 posts on the various sheep threads, but there is strong evidence that a member of APOS back-doored the 5 year wait plan through a resident hunter club. This of course has raised some concerns regarding this issue.

I like Kelly as well and personally think she is a great person. I however, will not let my personal, emotional attachments to an individual influence my judgement when looking at the big picture. The simply fact is, there’s a conflict of interest, plane and simple. I would hope that you would not let “your” personal feelings effect your judgement especially when you’re on the executive of a hunting organization whose members are comprised of mostly of resident hunters. Sometimes in life we have to pick a side and not fence sit. As a long time member of the ABA I question where your loyalties lie. Are you an outfitter or are you affiliated with APOS somehow?? Whose side are you on? Your member’s would like an answer. No fence sitting Please.

[walking buffalo]

http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/200...rophy-hunting/

If anyone here is interested Read carefully, go to links for further reading.

Some Quotes from Geist in rebuttal.

The matter of trophy males contains counterintuitive ironies. Very large horns or antlers are not adaptive. They are freaks. They may be the biggest, but they are not the best!

Hunting regulations have been altered so that now a full-curl restriction is in place, virtually terminating hunting mortality in rams.

Moreover, in some populations rams never reached full curl status because of poor forage conditions.

It has also escaped that vigorous breeding bighorn rams interact with others frequently, and in their frequent, severe clashes of heads “broom” or break back the horn tips. That shortens the horns. Consequently, many of the vigorous breeders never reach full curl or even 4/5th curl status and cannot be legally taken. Moreover, on the Ram Mountain study area rams are now under the full-curl rule. That is, there is practically no hunter kill, as Ram Mountain rams only exceptionally reach full-curl status. And if they do, they are virtually past breeding.

reintroduction programs generated continentally exceptionally viperous bighorns whose rams also grew record sized horns.

Mrs. Beth MacCallum, was instrumental in the matter of rehabilitating coal strip mines to custom-built bighorn sheep habitat close to Hinton in Alberta. For us this experiment was a test if we understood sheep ecology, as we claimed we did. When all was said and done, mountain sheep reproduction exploded! Bighorns from Jasper National Park visiting the custom-built sheep ranges voted with their feet, and never returned to the park. The rehabilitate strip mines attracted mule deer, elk, grizzly bears, wolves, wolverines but also birds and the number of nesting birds rose steadily year-by-year. A moon-landscape was transformed into an oasis of life, and spectacularly so. The female sheep doubled in body weight, while the rams grew into the largest seen in North America since the ice ages! Their horn sizes broke all North American records! The biggest bighorn rams ever in North America were taken from these rehabilitated strip mines.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Tonto

Has there been any studies on this?
Can you provide links to these studies?
Is this for all big game, or just bighorn sheep?
I find your info hard to beleive.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not calling it moronic or idiotic, just hard to beleive.

Actually the studies on 209's position date back to the Pavlovian conditioning work. The stuff SLH is talking is the "new ground".

I read an interesting piece some time back on some work done in Germany documenting the "language" of crows. Seems they had a considerable number of "words" in their vocabulary.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by 209x50

And again you brought this up in relation to sheep how? My comment to Justin stands, Disney lied to him and bambi really couldn't talk. His belief that sheep know the park boundaries is and consciously decide not to cross is what started all this. If the sheep were that brilliant maybe we could get them to teach the hunters the boundaries, how to age and judge horn length. He is giving a non thinking animal a whole lot of credit for reasoning abilities that it doesn't have.

I've read and kept up with this thread purely for the entertainment value, be it from the posters that have never hunted a sheep a day in their life to the wannabe's that find all their quotes and facts from a book and not actual field experience. I try to avoid posting simply because i just don't have the patience to argue with a self-professed hunting know it all, but after reading this one a few times, just couldn't help myself . A hunter that doesn't think a big game animal has park boundaries figured out just hasn't spent enough time in the field, or not paid enough attention to their quarry while out in the field. Indian head mountain was referred to a while back. One heck of a ram gathering mountain. For those that don't know, it is in the Clearwater on the park boundary, half in, half out. Guess where the rams hang out. Same can be said for all species including deer and elk. The suffield elk-don't need to do much explaining there, they know where that fence is. An area where I do most of my november deer hunting is on a very large ranch that consists of many sections of lease land. On the north end of this ranch is an eco reserve that consists of at least 15 sections of land. For those that don't know, an eco reserve might as well be a national park- zero hunting. I can't tell you how many big bucks I have watched walk toward that boundary, sniff that fence, and turn around and walk back into it. Hunt around that boundary, spook a buck, and where do you think they run 99% of the time? You guessed it. So back to the sheep, if you don't think they know exactly where that boundary is, I would suggest more time in the field studying your quarry.
I think that a whole lot more credit should be given to these "non-thinking" animals than what is given

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by SLH

But this tangent, as fun as it has been should probably end with your last comment as I know you won't let me end it, so that it can get back on track.

SLH, just ask a straight forward question, and you will have the last word.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Actually the studies on 209's position date back to the Pavlovian conditioning work. The stuff SLH is talking is the "new ground".

I read an interesting piece some time back on some work done in Germany documenting the "language" of crows. Seems they had a considerable number of "words" in their vocabulary.

Thanks Vin, i guess that blows 209's theory out the widow.

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I've read and kept up with this thread purely for the entertainment value, be it from the posters that have never hunted a sheep a day in their life to the wannabe's that find all their quotes and facts from a book and not actual field experience. I try to avoid posting simply because i just don't have the patience to argue with a self-professed hunting know it all, but after reading this one a few times, just couldn't help myself . A hunter that doesn't think a big game animal has park boundaries figured out just hasn't spent enough time in the field, or not paid enough attention to their quarry while out in the field. Indian head mountain was referred to a while back. One heck of a ram gathering mountain. For those that don't know, it is in the Clearwater on the park boundary, half in, half out. Guess where the rams hang out. Same can be said for all species including deer and elk. The suffield elk-don't need to do much explaining there, they know where that fence is. An area where I do most of my november deer hunting is on a very large ranch that consists of many sections of lease land. On the north end of this ranch is an eco reserve that consists of at least 15 sections of land. For those that don't know, an eco reserve might as well be a national park- zero hunting. I can't tell you how many big bucks I have watched walk toward that boundary, sniff that fence, and turn around and walk back into it. Hunt around that boundary, spook a buck, and where do you think they run 99% of the time? You guessed it. So back to the sheep, if you don't think they know exactly where that boundary is, I would suggest more time in the field studying your quarry.
I think that a whole lot more credit should be given to these "non-thinking" animals than what is given

Good post Mountainti, although it shouldn't have been needed. But, i guess even the guys that are supposed to be in the know, still have a lot to learn.

The animals don't know where the boundaries are!!! That's a laugher at best.
Somedays. I think they know when opening day is. And closing day.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I've read and kept up with this thread purely for the entertainment value, be it from the posters that have never hunted a sheep a day in their life to the wannabe's that find all their quotes and facts from a book and not actual field experience. I try to avoid posting simply because i just don't have the patience to argue with a self-professed hunting know it all, but after reading this one a few times, just couldn't help myself . A hunter that doesn't think a big game animal has park boundaries figured out just hasn't spent enough time in the field, or not paid enough attention to their quarry while out in the field. Indian head mountain was referred to a while back. One heck of a ram gathering mountain. For those that don't know, it is in the Clearwater on the park boundary, half in, half out. Guess where the rams hang out. Same can be said for all species including deer and elk. The suffield elk-don't need to do much explaining there, they know where that fence is. An area where I do most of my november deer hunting is on a very large ranch that consists of many sections of lease land. On the north end of this ranch is an eco reserve that consists of at least 15 sections of land. For those that don't know, an eco reserve might as well be a national park- zero hunting. I can't tell you how many big bucks I have watched walk toward that boundary, sniff that fence, and turn around and walk back into it. Hunt around that boundary, spook a buck, and where do you think they run 99% of the time? You guessed it. So back to the sheep, if you don't think they know exactly where that boundary is, I would suggest more time in the field studying your quarry.
I think that a whole lot more credit should be given to these "non-thinking" animals than what is given

So you believe you hunt animals that think and reason and can read a map? LOL!

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So you believe you hunt animals that think and reason and can read a map? LOL!

I believe I hunt animals that can think and reason. As for reading a map that might be stretching it, although I've crossed paths with the odd one that makes me wonder if it actually can read one

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So you believe you hunt animals that think and reason and can read a map? LOL!

I guess if guys have NEVER been out there to see any of this they would have a tough time understanding. Im pretty sure the search button on their computer cant find this fact. Nothing beats personal experience and actual time in the field.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

As for reading a map that might be stretching it

They put signs up on the highways telling them where to cross

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

They put signs up on the highways telling them where to cross

Surprised more guys haven't caught on to this and hung a tree stand nearby.

[pdfish]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I've read and kept up with this thread purely for the entertainment value, be it from the posters that have never hunted a sheep a day in their life to the wannabe's that find all their quotes and facts from a book and not actual field experience. I try to avoid posting simply because i just don't have the patience to argue with a self-professed hunting know it all, but after reading this one a few times, just couldn't help myself . A hunter that doesn't think a big game animal has park boundaries figured out just hasn't spent enough time in the field, or not paid enough attention to their quarry while out in the field. Indian head mountain was referred to a while back. One heck of a ram gathering mountain. For those that don't know, it is in the Clearwater on the park boundary, half in, half out. Guess where the rams hang out. Same can be said for all species including deer and elk. The suffield elk-don't need to do much explaining there, they know where that fence is. An area where I do most of my november deer hunting is on a very large ranch that consists of many sections of lease land. On the north end of this ranch is an eco reserve that consists of at least 15 sections of land. For those that don't know, an eco reserve might as well be a national park- zero hunting. I can't tell you how many big bucks I have watched walk toward that boundary, sniff that fence, and turn around and walk back into it. Hunt around that boundary, spook a buck, and where do you think they run 99% of the time? You guessed it. So back to the sheep, if you don't think they know exactly where that boundary is, I would suggest more time in the field studying your quarry.
I think that a whole lot more credit should be given to these "non-thinking" animals than what is given

Wouldn't this be considered a conditioned response as well? In the past, when pressured, they headed away from the pressure. It doesn't matter if its a national park or a farmer's field, if there's no pressure, thats where the animals will head. NO rational thought, just instinct, plain and simple.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by pdfish

Wouldn't this be considered a conditioned response as well? In the past, when pressured, they headed away from the pressure. It doesn't matter if its a national park or a farmer's field, if there's no pressure, thats where the animals will head. NO rational thought, just instinct, plain and simple.

Whether its instict or thought( which neither you nor anyone here can say) they still know exactly where that line is that divides safety and harm. To me they deserve a little credit for that.

These rams live this way they arent pushed by pressure.

[medicmoose]

I think sheep and other big game animals understand or figure out where they are safe and where they are not. If they are getting allot of hunting pressure or predator pressure in one area they will move out from it. So for the sheep that live on the park boundaries it would be easy to understand why after some hunting pressure they would move back into the park where there is less. By no means am I saying that they understand it is a park but they don’t get pushed around so why would they leave. Well the rut seems to get them out but Hell if I was only getting it once a year I would dodge some bullets for tang. If we opened some of the park areas to hunting it might in turn push some of these animals out into other zones (or maybe just further in).

Food for thought I guess.
MM

[209x50]

Originally Posted by pdfish

Wouldn't this be considered a conditioned response as well? In the past, when pressured, they headed away from the pressure. It doesn't matter if its a national park or a farmer's field, if there's no pressure, thats where the animals will head. NO rational thought, just instinct, plain and simple.

thank you, much better put then my tounge in cheek attempts at humor.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Tonto

Thanks Vin, i guess that blows 209's theory out the widow.

Well, actually, no it doesn't. All the behavior responses here can be explained by conditioned responses. The science is not there yet to completely refute the status quo, but questions are being asked allright.

For now it seems 209 is more right than wrong the way I understand what I have read on the subject.