To Crossbow or not to crossbow - That is the question!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by steve

I have shot them at paper. I can guarentee that I could have raised a crossbow resting my elbow on my knee, waited for the deer to travel into my shooting lane and pulled the pin. No one can argue this fact.

Steve, That is not a fact if it didn't happen. The point is you and a whole bunch of other people that have never hunted with a crossbow make these wild assumptions that you could have done this and you could have done that if you had a crossbow. How do you know if you've never done it? How much more movement does it take to draw a bow and aim in comparison to raising a crossbow and aiming it? Not much! Granted there is more effort involved in drawing the bow, I'll give you that, but movement.....?

[steve]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Steve, That is not a fact if it didn't happen. The point is you and a whole bunch of other people that have never hunted with a crossbow make these wild assumptions that you could have done this and you could have done that if you only had a crossbow. How do you know if you've never done it? How much more movement does it take to draw a bow and aim in comparison to raising a crossbow and aiming it? Not much! Granted there is more effort involved in drawing the bow, I'll give you that, but movement.....?

A wild assumption?

Holding a bow at full draw since your your butt hits the treestand seat is impossible.

A deer at 20 yards broadside, calm, with a rifle or crossbow raised is a dead
deer. Same situation with just your release clipped on your string, the outcome can seriously vary.

Im not going to bother with spot n stalk mulies.

Guys that spend enough time in the tree, and that's what this comes down to. know how many more deer they could have killed if they were already drawn.

Having to draw and being drawn from dark to dark is what this is about.

My assumptions are far from wild, closer compared to first hand experience.

[HunterDave]

Holding a bow at full draw since your your butt hits the treestand seat is impossible.

So is holding your crossbow up to your shoulder. So what?

A deer at 20 yards broadside, calm, with a rifle or crossbow raised is a dead deer.

No, that's not been my experience with a crossbow. If you can't make any movement then he walks.

Im not going to bother with spot n stalk mulies.

Either am I, that's not what I do. I prefer the ambush. That's just my style.

Guys that spend enough time in the tree, and that's what this comes down to. know how many more deer they could have killed if they were already drawn.

They THINK that they know! But if they've never hunted with a crossbow how would they know for sure? How many more deer would I have got if I didn't have to raise my crossbow to my shoulder, a similiar movement to drawing a bow?

Already being drawn and being to hold full draw till dark is what this is all about.

That is only one small part of the entire equation. Ya still gotta get the crossbow to your shoulder.

My assumptions are far from wild, closer compared to first hand experience.

As are mine with experience with both a compound bow and a crossbow.

[steve]

So what are we disagreeing on here Dave?

My point is that being able to hold full draw for a entire sit. Also
the ability of seeing movement 2 minutes away and getting your crossbow into shooting position, or reasonably close too. Never having to let down after the 45 second shakes set in. Is a extreme advantage.

Is it not?

Your also disagreeing with my statement that a broadside calm deer deer at 20 yards with a rifle of crossbow raised is not a dead deer? Explain that too me? Just pull the trigger...

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by steve

Your also disagreeing with my statement that a broadside calm deer deer at 20 yards with a rifle of crossbow raised is not a dead deer? Explain that too me? Just pull the trigger...

same as if my reezen is in that position isnt it? the thing is its about the same movement to draw a bow as it is to raise a gun or a crossbow. you still have to move. how do you not see that? if you would like to take a shot at the question in the post above go ahead.

[steve]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

same as if my reezen is in that position isnt it? the thing is its about the same movement to draw a bow as it is to raise a gun or a crossbow. you still have to move. how do you not see that? if you would like to take a shot at the question in the post above go ahead.

About the same? Or is the same? There is more movement involved in drawing a bow, that's all there is to it.

As I stated above with the ability to hold full draw for the entire sit. Why wait for the animal to be able to see the subtle movement of raising a crossbow from your lap to your shoulder, do that in advance since you have no limitations on how long you can stay at full draw.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by steve

About the same? Or is the same? There is more movement involved in drawing a bow, that's all there is to it.

As I stated above with the ability to hold full draw for the entire sit. Why wait for the animal to be able to see the subtle movement of raising a crossbow from your lap to your shoulder, do that in advance since you have no limitations on how long you can stay at full draw.

try holding a crossbow up steve and just see how long you can hold still. i guarantee you can hold your bow on a fixed target longer.

wanna try the question? success rates are nearly identical...within 2 %...sometimes higher...sometimes lower.

[steve]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

same as if my reezen is in that position isnt it? the thing is its about the same movement to draw a bow as it is to raise a gun or a crossbow. you still have to move. how do you not see that? if you would like to take a shot at the question in the post above go ahead.

Bambi, my post 103 stated "with just a release clipped to you string" Dave did some creative editing there. I would agree that with bow/rifle/crossbow at a 20 yards, calm, broadside deer, is a dead deer.

It was a comparison of crossbow raised vs. Compound not drawn.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by steve

Bambi, my post 103 stated "with just a release clipped to you string" Dave did some creative editing there. I would agree that with bow/rifle/crossbow at a 20 yards, calm, broadside deer, is a dead deer.

It was a comparison of crossbow raised vs. Compound not drawn.

well that isnt a fair comparison then is it?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by steve

So what are we disagreeing on here Dave?

My point is that being able to hold full draw for a entire sit. Also
the ability of seeing movement 2 minutes away and getting your crossbow into shooting position, or reasonably close too. Never having to let down after the 45 second shakes set in. Is a extreme advantage.

Is it not?

Your also disagreeing with my statement that a broadside calm deer deer at 20 yards with a rifle of crossbow raised is not a dead deer? Explain that too me? Just pull the trigger...

First point........When I'm in a situation that you described with a deer 2 minutes away and moving towards me I would have my crossbow up to my shoulder in a ready position with the bolt aimed at the ground similar to the preparations that I would make with a compound bow being ready to draw. I'd watch the deer and when I was sure of a shot I would raise the crossbow to a shooting position. If I had a compound bow that is when I would draw. There is no way that I'd be holding that cross bow to my eye aiming the whole time if that's what you're getting at. The movement of the crossbow up to an aiming position happens at the same time as when the compound hunter is pulling full draw.

Second point......It's not a dead deer just because it's standing broadside at 20 yards. IF you can get the crossbow into an aiming position and get a well aimed shot then yes, it should be a dead deer. The same can be said using a compound bow. If you can draw it and take a well aimed shot then it should be a dead deer.

As far as saying "just pull the trigger" well, why not say that the deer is dead with the compound bow? All that you have to do different is release the trigger.

So as I see it, the way that I hunt anyway, the biggest difference between hunting with a crossbow and a compound bow is the movement that it takes to get your crossbow in an aiming position and the movement that it takes to draw your compound bow and take aim. It may take more effort to draw the bow however, that to me, is not the huge advantage that some people make it out to be.

[HunterDave]

Steve, Later man. I have to call it a night. Sorry.

[steve]

Dave your dwelling on half a statement you ignored or missed the other half of it.

Raise your crossbow pull the trigger, you just shot. Raise your bow, pull the trigger, nothing happened.... You weren't drawn.

Your saying it's not the huge advantage that people make it out to be, its a very important skill in being a successful archery hunter. Knowing when to draw is a major contributor to arrowing animals.

Originally Posted by HunterDave

First point........When I'm in a situation that you described with a deer 2 minutes away and moving towards me I would have my crossbow up to my shoulder in a ready position with the bolt aimed at the ground similar to the preparations that I would make with a compound bow being ready to draw. I'd watch the deer and when I was sure of a shot I would raise the crossbow to a shooting position. If I had a compound bow that is when I would draw. There is no way that I'd be holding that cross bow to my eye aiming the whole time if that's what you're getting at. The movement of the crossbow up to an aiming position happens at the same time as when the compound hunter is pulling full draw.

Second point......It's not a dead deer just because it's standing broadside at 20 yards. IF you can get the crossbow into an aiming position and get a well aimed shot then yes, it should be a dead deer. The same can be said using a compound bow. If you can draw it and take a well aimed shot then it should be a dead deer.

As far as saying "just pull the trigger" well, why not say that the deer is dead with the compound bow? All that you have to do different is release the trigger.

So as I see it, the way that I hunt anyway, the biggest difference between hunting with a crossbow and a compound bow is the movement that it takes to get your crossbow in an aiming position and the movement that it takes to draw your compound bow and take aim. It may take more effort to draw the bow however, that to me, is not the huge advantage that some people make it out to be.

[elkhunter11]

I am by no means experienced with crossbows,but I have picked one up,and shot tighter groups at 40 yards with a crossbow that I can shoot with a bow.I have seen people that have never used a bow or a crossbow,pick up a crossbow and shoot bull eyes at 40 yards,whereas they couldn't do that at 20 yards with a compound bow the first time out.The range might be the same,but it is much easier for an inexperienced shooter to be accurate with a crossbow,than it is with a compound bow.

[ishootbambi]

how about that....guys who HAVE hunted with them trying to explain from their experience what they can do are being told they are wrong by guys who HAVENT hunted with them. anyone else see that as wierd?

and runner....ive asked this question on here many times and NOONE has given an answer to it yet. wanna try? if a crossbow is such an efficient killer and is way more deadly than a vertical bow, then why is the success rate virtually identical to that of vertical archers everywhere they are allowed?
i havent seen numbers yet where they vary by more than 2% sometimes higher sometimes lower.

and no, i wont be at the shoot, but if i can figure out how to post video will you take the bet?

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

how about that....guys who HAVE hunted with them trying to explain from their experience what they can do are being told they are wrong by guys who HAVENT hunted with them. anyone else see that as wierd?

and runner....ive asked this question on here many times and NOONE has given an answer to it yet. wanna try? if a crossbow is such an efficient killer and is way more deadly than a vertical bow, then why is the success rate virtually identical to that of vertical archers everywhere they are allowed?
i havent seen numbers yet where they vary by more than 2% sometimes higher sometimes lower.

and no, i wont be at the shoot, but if i can figure out how to post video will you take the bet?

and runner....ive asked this question on here many times and NOONE has given an answer to it yet. wanna try? if a crossbow is such an efficient killer and is way more deadly than a vertical bow, then why is the success rate virtually identical to that of vertical archers everywhere they are allowed?
i havent seen numbers yet where they vary by more than 2% sometimes higher sometimes lower.

I know for a FACT, that if i had a crossbow that last 2 years i would have a 340 bull on the ground last year and a 320 bull on the ground this year. To be able to be at full draw at all times not ever having to worry about when to draw or not is a HUGE advantage. Its realy a know brainer, i can not even imajine how many more oppertunities a person would have betwwen the two.
Do you actually think they are equal??? Honestly man i dont see how any one can think they are in the same leauge. For you to say this quote just floors me. I am done with you and this Post.

{its obvious you have no clue as to what a crossbow can do. they are the same as a vertical bow}

[ishootbambi]

^^^^ i didnt think you would have an answer to the question runner. you just keeping living in your own world within your own mind with your own facts that are different from what the real world has proven.

you dont know how anyone can think they are in the same league? well, its because some of us have actually hunted with both and have experience...not just imaginary facts.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

how about that....guys who HAVE hunted with them trying to explain from their experience what they can do are being told they are wrong by guys who HAVENT hunted with them. anyone else see that as wierd?

and runner....ive asked this question on here many times and NOONE has given an answer to it yet. wanna try? if a crossbow is such an efficient killer and is way more deadly than a vertical bow, then why is the success rate virtually identical to that of vertical archers everywhere they are allowed?
i havent seen numbers yet where they vary by more than 2% sometimes higher sometimes lower.

and no, i wont be at the shoot, but if i can figure out how to post video will you take the bet?

Probably a lower success rate because they have to hunt in rifle season with their cross bows. Animals act quite different after the banging starts, I find.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Probably a lower success rate because they have to hunt in rifle season with their cross bows. Animals act quite different after the banging starts, I find.

no mountain guy....you are missing the question. in many places in north america crossbows have been allowed in archery seasons for 30 years and even more. the results are in. this might be a new idea in alberta, but it isnt new across the continent. crossbows have virtually identical success rates to vertical archers. if a crossbow is so much more deadly according to some, then why are success rates the same?

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

in many places in north america crossbows have been allowed in archery seasons for 30 years and even more. the results are in.

good point. We can argue and guess about the possible effects all we want, but there are jurisdictions we (and SRD) can look at to see the long-term true impact. Makes a lot of sense to research that.

[Okotokian]

Wow, JUST recieved and completed my survey.... one thing that hasn't been pointed out here is that besides "yes" and "no" options, there is also a "neutral" choice. To be honest that last choice might actually capture the views of most with no dog in the fight.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

no mountain guy....you are missing the question. in many places in north america crossbows have been allowed in archery seasons for 30 years and even more. the results are in. this might be a new idea in alberta, but it isnt new across the continent. crossbows have virtually identical success rates to vertical archers. if a crossbow is so much more deadly according to some, then why are success rates the same?

To me success rates are irrelevent to this whole issue. I know guys that probably have lower success rates with their rifles than most bowhunters !
Does that mean that they should be able to hunt archery season with their rifles??
To me, x-bows are fundamentally closer to a rifle than they are to other forms of archery. Drawing and holding being the main reason.

[Mountain Guy]

I'm really trying...but I just cannot understand the logic that a crossbow is no more advantageous than a up&down bow.
Not a xbow guy but aren't they around 100lbs draw weight? Maybe more?
I see that as a HUGE advantage right there.
Heck maybe we should be allowed to de-tune our rifles to spit out a bullet at 350 ft / sec and allow rifles in too...
UNbelievable

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

I'm really trying...but I just cannot understand the logic that a crossbow is no more advantageous than a up&down bow.
Not a xbow guy but aren't they around 100lbs draw weight? Maybe more?
I see that as a HUGE advantage right there.
Heck maybe we should be allowed to de-tune our rifles to spit out a bullet at 350 ft / sec and allow rifles in too...
UNbelievable

ok, i see, you are behind in the understanding of the tool. typical crossbow draw weight is around 150 lbs. because the power stroke is much shorter, and the bolt much heavier, arrow speed are generally in the 300-350 fps range. because the bolt is shorter and heavier, it has much less ballistic coefficient....meaning it drops much faster than a longer lighter arrow which effectively reduces range. so, you have a projectile travelling at about the same speed as one from a vertical bow. my reezen for example is sjooting around 318 fps. with a practical range of around 40 yards the useful hunting range is pretty close for most guys. hmmm....seems like a similar speed and a similar range would explain the similar success rate. but if you have a different explanation as to why stats have been proven the same for 30 plus years id love to hear it. the question is simple....if xbows are so much better, then why dont they kill more?

[Mountain Guy]

MAybe because xbow hunters aren't as skilled as other archers?

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ok, i see, you are behind in the understanding of the tool. typical crossbow draw weight is around 150 lbs. because the power stroke is much shorter, and the bolt much heavier, arrow speed are generally in the 300-350 fps range. because the bolt is shorter and heavier, it has much less ballistic coefficient....meaning it drops much faster than a longer lighter arrow which effectively reduces range. so, you have a projectile travelling at about the same speed as one from a vertical bow. my reezen for example is sjooting around 318 fps. with a practical range of around 40 yards the useful hunting range is pretty close for most guys. hmmm....seems like a similar speed and a similar range would explain the similar success rate. but if you have a different explanation as to why stats have been proven the same for 30 plus years id love to hear it. the question is simple....if xbows are so much better, then why dont they kill more?

Thanks for some insight into the x-bow. I didn't realize that they only push the bolt out at 300ish ft/sec.
The only x-bow action I've ever witnessed was on tv. It sure appears that a bolt flys alot faster and straighter than an arrow does.
One thing that hasn't been discussed is tuning.
A big part of bowhunting / archery is tuning. You don't just pick a bow off the wall and go hunting. It would appear to me that a x-bow would be more like a [B]rifle[B] in that respect. I've spent alot of time paper tuning broadhead tuning,etc,etc proir to even thinking about hunting with my bow.
Does the same apply to an x-bow??
If the answer is no than that alone is a good enough reason to vote no

[choclab]

Rich how about this,
Keep the archery season the way it is, but if an animal is on draw for rifle make the archery season draw as well. Also make it that you can't apply for both at the same time.

BTW I vote no.