Gunsmith shot by police Ontario

[Scott N]

Plenty of inocent people have been killed by the police in no-knock warrents, TPS better have a good reason to use this tactic.

[daveyn]

Many times people who live next door to Hells Angel's clubhouses would describe them seemingly nice people who never cause a problem and are good neighbors. All that means is you don't crap where you eat.
If I was to speculate, and I will, cause that's what we do, I would think the TPS is there because its bigger than the local force. The victim is a gun smith. Was he buying, selling, modifying weapons that he shouldn't have been ? Was the "customer" actually a customer or an Undercover cop making a pre-arranged buy and then signaling the boys outside once the illegal merchandise was produced ? If the cops were watching the place, which they obviously were, they would have waited for the customer to leave. The SWAT guys weren't there by accident and its no accident they were not local. If I had to guess, the victim here was involved in some stuff outside of legitimate, run of the mill gunsmithing. I won't speculate on what happened once they were inside.
But thats just where my head went.

[Phil McCracken]

First of all, my condolences to the family...

Secondly. to all the Monday Morning Quarterbacks...give it a break.

Nobody knows what actually happened here by way of media information.

Let's wait until all the facts come out in Court...

Then we can all discuss this...just saying...

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

First of all, my condolences to the family...

Secondly. to all the Monday Morning Quarterbacks...give it a break.

Nobody knows what actually happened here by way of media information.

Let's wait until all the facts come out in Court...

Then we can all discuss this...just saying...

Agree 100%

The weekly stomp a cop thread has been done already

[AI 6.5]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

Nice well respected people can and do make bad decisions that have serious consequences. Hold off judgement on all sides until the all facts are out.

This right here. Of course all the armchair quarterbacks who were not there or who have never responded to a call in their life have all the answers. If the article or media report is about gun owners of course it's all horsesh!t and they always get it wrong but as soon as it involves police it's gospel.

[AI 6.5]

Originally Posted by Scott N

Plenty of inocent people have been killed by the police in no-knock warrents, TPS better have a good reason to use this tactic.

Care to post some facts about how many innocent people in Canada have been killed by police while executing no knock warrants.

[RandyBoBandy]

Originally Posted by AI 6.5

Care to post some facts about how many innocent people in Canada have been killed by police while executing no knock warrants.

That's a great idea AI6.5. All of our AO fact checkers are busy in the covid thread

[Scott N]

Originally Posted by AI 6.5

Care to post some facts about how many innocent people in Canada have been killed by police while executing no knock warrants.

Stats, no. Rodger might turn out to be the latest one though. And while not killed by a cop... the opposite of course, was Basil Parasiris, the cop in Quebec. No-knocks just seem like a terrible idea.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

First of all, my condolences to the family...

Secondly. to all the Monday Morning Quarterbacks...give it a break.

Nobody knows what actually happened here by way of media information.

Let's wait until all the facts come out in Court...

Then we can all discuss this...just saying...

Stop this nonsense your to logically to fit in

[AI 6.5]

Originally Posted by Scott N

Stats, no. Rodger might turn out to be the latest one though. And while not killed by a cop... the opposite of course, was Basil Parasiris, the cop in Quebec. No-knocks just seem like a terrible idea.

Might be? Again we should wait for the facts to come out before speculating which seems to be a pastime around here. No Knock warrants are not granted on a whim either. Do you even know how one obtains a warrant?

[Carriertxv]

Originally Posted by daveyn

Many times people who live next door to Hells Angel's clubhouses would describe them seemingly nice people who never cause a problem and are good neighbors. All that means is you don't crap where you eat.
If I was to speculate, and I will, cause that's what we do, I would think the TPS is there because its bigger than the local force. The victim is a gun smith. Was he buying, selling, modifying weapons that he shouldn't have been ? Was the "customer" actually a customer or an Undercover cop making a pre-arranged buy and then signaling the boys outside once the illegal merchandise was produced ? If the cops were watching the place, which they obviously were, they would have waited for the customer to leave. The SWAT guys weren't there by accident and its no accident they were not local. If I had to guess, the victim here was involved in some stuff outside of legitimate, run of the mill gunsmithing. I won't speculate on what happened once they were inside.
But thats just where my head went.

Can’t speculate on what happened to the gunsmith but can say absolutely that when the HH took over the Crew and their clubhouse in Ogden there was zero crime all through this area. Once they left the crime sky rocketed in all the surrounding communities. Carbon park became the hub for foreign greaser drug gangs.
Non condoning anything just stating the facts.

[Scott N]

Originally Posted by AI 6.5

Might be? Again we should wait for the facts to come out before speculating which seems to be a pastime around here. No Knock warrants are not granted on a whim either. Do you even know how one obtains a warrant?

No, not completely. But explain... I'm dying to hear your expertise.

[fallen1817]

Originally Posted by Scott N

Stats, no. Rodger might turn out to be the latest one though. And while not killed by a cop... the opposite of course, was Basil Parasiris, the cop in Quebec. No-knocks just seem like a terrible idea.

"Hey, yeah, it's Constable Responsible with the Toronto Police Service. So listen. We need to come by next Tuesday at 4 pm to have a look through your stuff. Just leave everything as it is right now...

Okay! See you Tuesday!"

[Scott N]

Originally Posted by fallen1817

"Hey, yeah, it's Constable Responsible with the Toronto Police Service. So listen. We need to come by next Tuesday at 4 pm to have a look through your stuff. Just leave everything as it is right now...

Okay! See you Tuesday!"

Seems that the police whom he did work for had nothing but good things to say about him. What do you think changed to make him such a danger?

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by fallen1817

"Hey, yeah, it's Constable Responsible with the Toronto Police Service. So listen. We need to come by next Tuesday at 4 pm to have a look through your stuff. Just leave everything as it is right now...

Okay! See you Tuesday!"

Are you really that unclear on the difference between a warrant and a no-knock warrant? Or do you know the difference and you are simply trying to change the narrative through misdirection?

As for the previous comment about what it takes to get a warrant: this originated from Toronto, home of Bill Blair's cult of "guns are bad". I doubt that a getting a warrant is very difficult when "bad guns" is written on the request form.

[daveyn]

Originally Posted by Scott N

Seems that the police whom he did work for had nothing but good things to say about him. What do you think changed to make him such a danger?

no idea, but the fact that he was tight with the local police may just be the reason the warrant was not undertaken by the local police and outsourced. You wouldn't want him getting a " heads up".
but I'm just speculating again and we shouldn't be doing that.

[fallen1817]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

Are you really that unclear on the difference between a warrant and a no-knock warrant? Or do you know the difference and you are simply trying to change the narrative through misdirection?

As for the previous comment about what it takes to get a warrant: this originated from Toronto, home of Bill Blair's cult of "guns are bad". I doubt that a getting a warrant is very difficult when "bad guns" is written on the request form.

Urban, If I upset you with my post, allow me to apologize. I was simply making a joke using the quote from Scott N about no-knock warrants being a bad idea, and taking a satirical approach, thinking "what-if" there were no more no-knock warrants...

So no, I'm not unclear on the difference between the two types of warrants.
And also no... I'm not trying to change the narrative...

Some days I forget how testy and personally invested we as members can get into threads. I'll refrain from the humour in the future.

[fallen1817]

Originally Posted by Scott N

Seems that the police whom he did work for had nothing but good things to say about him. What do you think changed to make him such a danger?

I'd speculate that the only people that know what made him a danger are the police investigating, the crown, and him.

The only other thing I'll add is this.

Whenever someone is killed by police, all we see in the news is what a good boy he was, and how he was just turning his life around.

I'll reserve all judgement until all of the information is released. I'd speculate we know <1% of the information, and it would be foolish to form opinions based on the lack of information.

[Scott N]

Originally Posted by fallen1817

I'd speculate that the only people that know what made him a danger are the police investigating, the crown, and him.

The only other thing I'll add is this.

Whenever someone is killed by police, all we see in the news is what a good boy he was, and how he was just turning his life around.

I'll reserve all judgement until all of the information is released. I'd speculate we know <1% of the information, and it would be foolish to form opinions based on the lack of information.

He was a 70 year old stroke survivor, so he doesn't really fit your stereotype of the good boy turning his life around.

Copied from IPSC Ontario web site:

“My friend was murdered on Nov 3rd.

This was my friend. He was 100% Legal in every aspect of the gunsmith firearms business. He stored everything properly. Norfolk County OPP were NOT even involved in this. This was Metro Toronto Police that decided to serve a search warrant. They came up to the house while Rodgers wife was unloading groceries from the car. They took her down to the ground by force with automatic rifles. They then proceeded to the garage where Rodger was sitting at his bench working on a gun. At this time a customer was with him seated a few feet away. The Toronto Police burst though the door shooting Rodger once in the neck and three times to the chest. He was dead for no reason. If you knew Rodger you know he was a calm person who could talk to anyone with common sense. He was a renowned Gunsmith who was known to be able to fix the unfixable. Norfolk police(OPP) knew him well and were some of his best customers for their own firearms. He was also on first name basis with the RCMP and OPP in Orillia (Where the CFO is.) If the Toronto police had notified the OPP, they would had gone with them and this would never have happened."

[Pioneer2]

Will never know the truth.

[Pathfinder76]

Truly sad.

[glen moa]

no knock warrant on a 70y old? No other options?

[Kolibri]

Originally Posted by fallen1817

I'd speculate that the only people that know what made him a danger are the police investigating, the crown, and him.

'Alleged' danger, he gets the same 'innocent until proven guilty' standing as the people who killed him.
And is clear from this thread there are many who see two of the three parties you mention as less than beyond reproach, so who wants to wait and see four year from now at what 'they' have to say?
Sadly a man important to the IPSC community was killed in his house.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by fallen1817

I'd speculate that the only people that know what made him a danger are the police investigating, the crown, and him.

The only other thing I'll add is this.

Whenever someone is killed by police, all we see in the news is what a good boy he was, and how he was just turning his life around.

I'll reserve all judgement until all of the information is released. I'd speculate we know <1% of the information, and it would be foolish to form opinions based on the lack of information.

To this point, we don't know that he ever was a danger to anyone, and we will likely never know. All that we actually know for sure, is that he is dead.

[bukwild]

I posted a while ago about the possibility of Canadian police shooting folks when they show up at homes to remove prohibited firearms in May 2022. Many laughed it off. I fully expect this to be repeated numerous times in Canada in the following years. Peaceful citizens WILL be shot dead by police for not giving up property that they legally purchased and possessed.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

First of all, my condolences to the family...

Secondly. to all the Monday Morning Quarterbacks...give it a break.

Nobody knows what actually happened here by way of media information.

Let's wait until all the facts come out in Court...

Then we can all discuss this...just saying...

Again....sorry to repeat myself...

[Twisted Canuck]

Apparently the TPS did not notify local OPP detachment that they were executing a search warrant.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...0-year-old-man

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Scott N

Seems that the police whom he did work for had nothing but good things to say about him. What do you think changed to make him such a danger?

Since we are playing the WAG speculation game;

early onset Alzheimers?
drunken rage?
someone pizzed him off by not paying and he threatened them?
rival gunsmith had him SWATTED?
hidden drug use and dealer called him in?
Long serving history of turning evidence to keep clean record?
HA ties?
Did he spin around in his chair with a Glock and bear down on the officers?

EVERYTHING is a WAG (wild ass guess)

To say 'oh no way' to anything is pure conjecture, plus we may never find out the reason for the no knock, and what actually happened. Live video from the house or officers is the only way we would know.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Since we are playing the WAG speculation game;

early onset Alzheimers?
drunken rage?
someone pizzed him off by not paying and he threatened them?
rival gunsmith had him SWATTED?
hidden drug use and dealer called him in?
Long serving history of turning evidence to keep clean record?
HA ties?
Did he spin around in his chair with a Glock and bear down on the officers?

EVERYTHING is a WAG (wild ass guess)

To say 'oh no way' to anything is pure conjecture, plus we may never find out the reason for the no knock, and what actually happened. Live video from the house or officers is the only way we would know.

Sticking with the guesses, seeing as how he was a gunsmith and had a customer, it's quite likely he was holding a firearm. If he heard someone suddenly enter, and he faced the door to look, the gun may have been inadvertently pointing towards the door. While I described pretty much the same scenario that you did, my version sounds far less threatening than yours, perhaps because I didn't purposely want to make it appear to be threatening?

[The Cook]

Sounds to me like Toronto's mayor got a hot tip into record breaking homicides that parallel our crime minister's narrative.