Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #241  
Old 11-21-2021, 07:03 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishpah View Post
Give it a break guys. The TPS needs time getting their story together. Remember the Robert Dziekański case at the Vancouver Airport back in 2007.
But in that instance, the videotape resulted in perjury convictions.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
  #242  
Old 12-02-2021, 05:04 AM
Scott N's Avatar
Scott N Scott N is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,506
Default TO police officer who shot gunsmith won't talk to SIU

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...date-1.6269099

Rodger Kotanko's family said they're disappointed but not surprised

Bobby Hristova · CBC News · Posted: Dec 01, 2021 7:27 AM ET | Last Updated: December 1


The Toronto police officer who shot gunsmith Rodger Kotanko nearly a month ago won't talk to Ontario's police watchdog.

Special Investigations Unit (SIU) spokesperson Kristy Denette told CBC Hamilton on Tuesday morning, the subject officer also "declined to release his notes, as is his legal right."

Kotanko's family and their lawyer say they're not surprised but are disappointed.


"Jessie, his wife, she just cries all the time," Jeff Kotanko, Rodger's brother, said in an afternoon phone call.

"She gave up her life in China to come here and spend her life with him and … now he's just gone and she's alone. Her whole life has been destroyed."

Michael Smitiuch, the family's lawyer, said while he had a chance to speak with the lead investigator Monday evening, there are still numerous unanswered questions about Rodger's death on Nov. 3 at his Norfolk County property.

"The family, obviously, is anxious to find out more information and the longer this goes, the more difficult it is for the family when they don't have the answers they're looking for," he said.

Toronto police said officers arrived at Rodger's home on Port Ryerse Road around noon. Neighbours say some wore plain clothes and some wore tactical gear looking for guns. Family say they also had an ambulance with them.

It's unclear what information they had because the family says it has never received a copy of the search warrant.


Rodger's family also says Toronto police didn't coordinate with local police, only alerting them moments before executing the warrant — a move family and friends believe would have prevented Rodger's death.

They say officers pointed assault rifles at Jessie and got her on the ground before approaching the gunsmithing workshop.

They add Rodger was inside with an apparent customer working on a gun when a police officer standing outside the workshop shot him.

The family lawyer has said Rodger had no criminal past and was a certified gunsmith who reportedly fixed guns for local police.


Denette, from the SIU, said all but one person, excluding the officer who shot Rodger, needs to be interviewed. The investigation has included seven witness officers and two civilian witnesses.

The next step in the investigation is ongoing forensic analysis and reviewing evidence, Denette said.


The investigation must be finished by Mar. 3, 2022 — 120 days from when it started. When the investigation ends, the SIU director will release a public report about the findings only if there are no grounds to charge the police officer with a crime.

Jeff has expressed his lack of confidence in the SIU, saying it is a process in which "cops (are) investigating cops."

Former SIU directors say family needs to trust process
André Marin, who served as SIU director between 1996 and 1998, said he understands the family's concerns.

"I empathize with their frustration … the law, as it stands, does not force the subject officer to testify and I don't necessarily agree with it but that's the way the cookie crumbles," he said, adding it's common for officers to decline to participate in the investigation.

Ian Scott, the former director from 2008 to 2013, said he understands why the subject officer has the right to decline an interview.

"These are criminal investigations and the criminal procedure in our country does not support the admissibility of compelled statements which could incriminate somebody in a criminal matter so if they're not going to be admissible as evidence in a trial, I don't see the value," he said.

Marin said in this case the SIU appears to have interviewed many witnesses, unlike other cases where someone is shot and the officer who pulled the trigger won't talk.

He said, while the SIU isn't perfect, it is an independent, arms-length agency that has safeguards in place to prevent conflicts of interest.

Still, Erick Laming, a criminology lecturer at Trent University who researches police use of force and accountability, said the officer declining to speak still may lead to some public skepticism.

Though Laming said cases like Kotanko's — where the family is desperate for more details — don't help the SIU's public image.

"There's still a lot of improvement we can make, especially with the oversight we see," he said.

Marin said the SIU must balance protecting its investigation with public transparency, saying Rodger's family is "In the dark to preserve the investigation so it is more credible."

Scott said agencies like the SIU and police services won't ever be able to please everyone.

"You're never going to get a complete consensus on the police's use of force and the reality is when police use force, whether it is lethal [or not], it's always tragic and frankly, ugly."

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Bobby Hristova
Reporter/Editor

Bobby Hristova is a reporter/editor with CBC Hamilton. Email: bobby.hristova@cbc.ca
  #243  
Old 12-02-2021, 07:58 AM
glen moa glen moa is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 970
Default

One of the biggest problems.
The plan to arrest was terrible. Are they still using this plan?
  #244  
Old 12-02-2021, 08:03 AM
Redhorse Ranch Redhorse Ranch is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Beaver County
Posts: 180
Default

"......may lead to some public skepticism."

Ya think?
  #245  
Old 12-02-2021, 08:09 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redhorse Ranch View Post
"......may lead to some public skepticism."

Ya think?
Much of the public lost all faith when RCMP officers opened fire on another officer, and shot up the firehall in Nova Scotia, and the investigation didn't hold anyone accountable. If trigger happy officers will open fire on one of their own, when they are under no threat from him, why would anyone doubt that an officer would open fire on a gunsmith, that presents no threat?
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
  #246  
Old 12-02-2021, 08:22 AM
Redhorse Ranch Redhorse Ranch is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Beaver County
Posts: 180
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Much of the public lost all faith when RCMP officers opened fire on another officer, and shot up the firehall in Nova Scotia, and the investigation didn't hold anyone accountable. If trigger happy officers will open fire on one of their own, when they are under no threat from him, why would anyone doubt that an officer would open fire on a gunsmith, that presents no threat?
One of many incidents. There's been a steady erosion of trust taking place over the span of the last generation. I don't know how they plan to replace the trust, but it's not this way.
  #247  
Old 12-02-2021, 09:33 AM
7magtime's Avatar
7magtime 7magtime is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far Enough From The City, AB
Posts: 1,569
Default

It's baffling that an officer is allowed to willingly withhold information/evidence on an incident/fatality they caused or were directly involved with.

If I tried to do that in my profession during an incident investigation I was involved in, it would most likely be an automatic dismissal for me.....

It definitely doesn't help the RCMP/Police public image allowing officer's to do this.
__________________
"Better To Be Judged By 12, Then Buried By Six"
  #248  
Old 12-02-2021, 09:43 AM
Talking moose's Avatar
Talking moose Talking moose is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: McBride/Prince George
Posts: 14,521
Default

My god! How long does it take police to fabricate a story to clear they’re name?
Amateur hour.
  #249  
Old 12-02-2021, 09:48 AM
Twisted Canuck's Avatar
Twisted Canuck Twisted Canuck is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: GP AB
Posts: 16,211
Default

No surprise that he isn't cooperating. In his boots, I suspect nobody here would either. Why incriminate yourself? The law protects him, so why not avail himself of that. I'm not saying I agree or that it is right, but it is that way.
__________________
'Once the monkeys learn they can vote themselves a banana, they'll never climb another tree.'. Robert Heinlein

'You can accomplish a lot more with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.' Al Capone
  #250  
Old 12-02-2021, 11:20 AM
sk270 sk270 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 899
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Much of the public lost all faith when RCMP officers opened fire on another officer, and shot up the firehall in Nova Scotia, and the investigation didn't hold anyone accountable. If trigger happy officers will open fire on one of their own, when they are under no threat from him, why would anyone doubt that an officer would open fire on a gunsmith, that presents no threat?
Yes. And yes again.

Two RCMP members fired repeatedly, and missed thank goodness, at another member and probably some civilians. That was a year and a half ago. No action seems to have been taken against the shooters. The RCMP has made very little public about the whole matter.

That incident alone brought my faith in the RCMP to a new low, never mind the rest of the mistakes surrounding the mass murderer they were attempting to locate and apprehend.
  #251  
Old 12-02-2021, 11:56 AM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

wow you guys sure know how to speculate and stir the pot time and time again.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
  #252  
Old 12-02-2021, 12:14 PM
Talking moose's Avatar
Talking moose Talking moose is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: McBride/Prince George
Posts: 14,521
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
wow you guys sure know how to speculate and stir the pot time and time again.
We just like seeing you repeat yourself over and over on the same thread.
  #253  
Old 12-02-2021, 12:25 PM
sk270 sk270 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 899
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
wow you guys sure know how to speculate and stir the pot time and time again.
I don't think I'm speculating. I might be wrong but I think it's very different in the USA. It seems to me that a spokesperson makes a live statement at least by the next day summarizing what is known about a mass shooting, even to the point of naming the firearms involved. In Canada we wait months and sometimes forever.

If the Nova Scotia killings had occurred in Maine there might be a book out by now.

I believe the RCMP are far more secretive than US state law enforcement agencies which do the same job. Perhaps this is related to their paramilitary organization.

A similar situation exists with civilian oversight, or lack of it.

I'd appreciate comments from anyone with first hand experience, especially from the US.

Thanks.
  #254  
Old 12-02-2021, 01:10 PM
Scott N's Avatar
Scott N Scott N is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 7,506
Default

One part of this that I find very troubling is how little coverage of this is on the media. I don't recall ever hearing about this incident on the local news, but a few days ago Montreal police arrested a black man and ended up giving the suspect a snow face wash. I've heard more about the face wash than I have about police killing someone.
  #255  
Old 12-02-2021, 01:58 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

No action seems to have been taken against the shooters.

seems is speculating.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
  #256  
Old 12-02-2021, 02:04 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talking moose View Post
We just like seeing you repeat yourself over and over on the same thread.
I knew it

You got me!
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
  #257  
Old 12-02-2021, 02:05 PM
ward ward is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 967
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7magtime View Post
It's baffling that an officer is allowed to willingly withhold information/evidence on an incident/fatality they caused or were directly involved with.

If I tried to do that in my profession during an incident investigation I was involved in, it would most likely be an automatic dismissal for me.....

It definitely doesn't help the RCMP/Police public image allowing officer's to do this.
Go back and read the paragraph that quotes Ian Scott.
  #258  
Old 12-02-2021, 02:20 PM
crazy_davey crazy_davey is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Foothills
Posts: 2,337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talking moose View Post
We just like seeing you repeat yourself over and over on the same thread.
He’s gotta keep padding that post count somehow.
  #259  
Old 12-02-2021, 02:20 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
No action seems to have been taken against the shooters.

seems is speculating.
Actually the investigation into their actions is complete,and they will face no charges for trying to kill one of their own officers.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7654292/r...ing-fire-hall/

Quote:
Two RCMP officers who unleashed a hailstorm of semi-automatic gunfire at the Onslow Belmont Fire Brigade hall last April while searching for the Nova Scotia gunman will not face criminal charges, according to a report completed by the province’s Serious Incident Response Team (SIRT).
So there is no speculation as to whether they will face criminal charges, for opening fire on another officer..
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.

Last edited by elkhunter11; 12-02-2021 at 02:32 PM.
  #260  
Old 12-02-2021, 02:31 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Actually the investigation into their actions is complete,and they will face no charges for trying to kill one of their own officers.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7654292/r...ing-fire-hall/



So there is no speculation as to whether they will face charges.
The SIRT report said that the two officers who fired their weapons did so believing the person they were shooting at was the gunman. This is because he was dressed similarly to the gunman — wearing a yellow and orange reflective vest — and standing near a marked RCMP cruiser at the time of the shooting.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
  #261  
Old 12-02-2021, 02:34 PM
7magtime's Avatar
7magtime 7magtime is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far Enough From The City, AB
Posts: 1,569
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ward View Post
Go back and read the paragraph that quotes Ian Scott.
I read it but it still doesn't make it right, especially for the family who is searching for answers on what happened.
Hopefully this incident gets the wheels in motion to make some changes so withholding important information isn't allowed in the future...
__________________
"Better To Be Judged By 12, Then Buried By Six"
  #262  
Old 12-02-2021, 02:39 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
The SIRT report said that the two officers who fired their weapons did so believing the person they were shooting at was the gunman. This is because he was dressed similarly to the gunman — wearing a yellow and orange reflective vest — and standing near a marked RCMP cruiser at the time of the shooting.
The officer that they fired at was wearing his uniform , and a reflective vest and was standing next to his marked cruiser, just like many RCMP officers do every day. So are you suggesting that if a gunman is reported loose and is supposedly trying to pass himself off as an RCMP officer, any RCMP officer should immediately open fire on any other officer or marked police car that they see, without trying to determine if it may be a real officer? Can you imagine what would have happened if every officer in the area was that stupid, and several officers had been killed by other officers, just because they were wearing RCMP uniforms?
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
  #263  
Old 12-02-2021, 02:46 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
The officer that they fired at was wearing his uniform , and a reflective vest and was standing next to his marked cruiser, just like many RCMP officers do every day. So are you suggesting that if a gunman is reported loose and is supposedly trying to pass himself off as an RCMP officer, any RCMP officer should immediately open fire on any other officer or marked police car that they see, without trying to determine if it may be a real officer? Can you imagine what would have happened if every officer in the area was that stupid, and several officers had been killed by other officers, just because they were wearing RCMP uniforms?
mistakes were made no two ways about it.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
  #264  
Old 12-02-2021, 02:52 PM
huntinstuff's Avatar
huntinstuff huntinstuff is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 9,586
Default

The media doesnt cover it because it is a factual occurrence

They prefer ambiguous stuff where opinion trumps facts..thats how you get the hook in....
__________________
When you are born, you get a ticket to the Freak Show.
If you are born in Canada, you get a front row seat.
  #265  
Old 12-02-2021, 03:11 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
mistakes were made no two ways about it.
No kidding, trying to kill a fellow RCMP officer because you are too stupid to take action to verify if he is a real officer, or a suspect is a very serious mistake, that could have cost the officer his life. The officer was standing around, not threatening anyone, and they likely all had access to radio communication to use to try and confirm the officer's identity, before trying to kill him. The only reason that officer is alive is because of the total incompetence of the officers with their firearms.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
  #266  
Old 12-02-2021, 03:44 PM
tri777's Avatar
tri777 tri777 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,032
Default

As this story unfolds, I'm starting to conclude the cop was related to similar trigger happy type @1:04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rngerMY-WS8
  #267  
Old 12-02-2021, 03:54 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
No kidding, trying to kill a fellow RCMP officer because you are too stupid to take action to verify if he is a real officer, or a suspect is a very serious mistake, that could have cost the officer his life. The officer was standing around, not threatening anyone, and they likely all had access to radio communication to use to try and confirm the officer's identity, before trying to kill him. The only reason that officer is alive is because of the total incompetence of the officers with their firearms.
I could only speculate as you do and the rest that it was a chaotic situation for all involved.

Hindsight is always 20/20. and then toss in the media, social media etc well now ya got a mosh pit.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
  #268  
Old 12-02-2021, 03:55 PM
sk270 sk270 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 899
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
No action seems to have been taken against the shooters.

seems is speculating.
You are correct that it sounds that way. Sorry. That's not what I meant. I worded it to show that I was not entirely certain that nothing had been done. I should have said no action has been announced against the two members who took potshots at one of their own and a fire station. Nor has it been announced that they have been given marksmanship training.

Or did I miss it?

Last edited by sk270; 12-02-2021 at 04:00 PM.
  #269  
Old 12-02-2021, 04:03 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sk270 View Post
You are correct that it sounds that way. Sorry. That's not what I meant. I worded it to show that I was not entirely certain that nothing had been done. I should have said no action has been announced against the two members who took potshots at one of their own and a fire station. Nor has it been announced that they have been given marksmanship training.

Or did I miss it?
“The investigation found that based on everything the officers had seen and heard since coming on duty and what they had observed at the time, they had reasonable grounds to believe that the male was the killer and someone who would continue his killing rampage. They discharged their weapons in order to prevent further deaths or serious injuries,” the report said.“Accordingly, no criminal offence was committed, and no charges are warranted against either officer.”
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
  #270  
Old 12-02-2021, 04:32 PM
sk270 sk270 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 899
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
“The investigation found that based on everything the officers had seen and heard since coming on duty and what they had observed at the time, they had reasonable grounds to believe that the male was the killer and someone who would continue his killing rampage. They discharged their weapons in order to prevent further deaths or serious injuries,” the report said.“Accordingly, no criminal offence was committed, and no charges are warranted against either officer.”
Like I said, no action against the members who shot up a fire station while trying to hit one of their own.

Actually, I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. However, the RCMP cover up so much stuff and respond so slowly to civilian oversight (including Federal Government directives) that is no longer possible for me to do so. Check out Lucki's responses to various claims of sexual harassment, for example, or the delay in introducing body cameras.

Last edited by sk270; 12-02-2021 at 04:37 PM.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.