Baiting In Alberta

[justinO]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

I agree that artificial baiting does increase the risk of ungulates to possibly come into close contact with an animal that may carry this or any other disease. But so do all the other man made buffets that already are present in the ungulates natural settings.

I do believe that the small risk with artificial baiting is almost a mute point in the big picture of ungulates contracting any disease. Ungulates bed in the same area, travel the same game trails, feed naturally in the same areas, get water in same areas, winter together, have interaction while breading, feed on hay stacks and grain spoils, does clean fawns, bucks travel in bachelor groups early season, during the breading rituals, bucks will follow estrus scents for miles looking for a hot doe, pre and post rutting activities have males sparing, this list goes on and on really.. So would artificial baiting actually significantly increase the risks of disease to spread, not enough in my mind to loose sleep over.

Biggest concern should be the mismanagement of this precious resource by those who call themselves Bio's and Scientists

Great Post.x2

Are these the same all knowing Government workers, scientist, and biologists that are managing our fish and game population lol Giving out unlimited supplemental tags in areas that populations have been devastated due to winters, wolves, too many supplemental tags and the hunters who take advantage of these tags. All based on their past 6+year old surveys that say the herd in the area was to large???? Any hunter or farmer with half a brain can do basic addition and subtraction if the numbers go down so should the tags but guess what the numbers are way down but the supplemental tags are still high. But people go along with it because obviously these biologist and government employees know everything because they see a spread sheet. Fishing is in in the same situation lets see how fast we can destroy a fishery like cold lake for instance, or go to slave lake good luck catching a walleye 2 inches bigger than the legal limit...
So do I buy this whole CWD stuff I'll say partially. I am sure it's a real disease that may or may not be spreading like cancer lol just to let you know cancer is not aids it does not spread.... Is CWD just here now in the last 10 years I call BS. As the last poster says farmers spill grain and what not today with the best equipment at the height of their productivity imagine farmers 100 years ago are you telling me they didn't spill any and the deer were not eating it then herding up???
As for baiting keeping it illegal only stops the honest hunters from doing it. The poachers will bait no matter what the law says and will shoot them at night or whenever they come in. Because guess what we have a huge book full of regulations but no F&W officers to enforce them

Originally Posted by justinO

just to let you know cancer is not aids it does not spread....

Cancer starts at a central location and spreads throughout the body, often slowly......just like CWD is spreading throughout Alberta....just to let you know

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Cancer starts at a central location and spreads throughout the body, often slowly......just like CWD is spreading throughout Alberta....just to let you know

No you are talking about it in terms of spreading because of baiting and contact. Cancer is not spread like a virus or disease!!!

Originally Posted by justinO

No you are talking about it in terms of spreading because of baiting and contact. Cancer is not spread like a virus or disease!!!

Cancer is an analogy for CWD and the human body was an analogy for for the province of Alberta. The cancer spreads within the body just as CWD is spreading within Alberta.

I'm pretty sure I know what I meant, they were my words....lol.....

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

So what about fair chase? Frankly I could care less about fair chase. What a goofy concept. Lets be fair and not bait an animal, instead we will blast it from half a mile away with a hand held canon. Now that's fair chase?

Lets be honest, the only time hunting even comes close to fair chase for the animal is when we hunt with a bow and arrow, with none of the modern accoutrements.

Wow...with comments like that who really needs the anti hunter to do any work? Another example that illustrates that hunters will gladly eat their own....

I agree with the part of your post where you bring up legality and think that's important, however if you don't think that public opinion, fair chase concepts, etc can drive legislation your eyes are closed...

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by rackmastr

wow...with comments like that who really needs the anti hunter to do any work? Another example that illustrates that hunters will gladly eat their own....

I agree with the part of your post where you bring up legality and think that's important, however if you don't think that public opinion, fair chase concepts, etc can drive legislation your eyes are closed...

x10!

[Donkey Oatey]

OK, lets do this again. CWD is not like any disease you know. It is not infectious the same as any other disease.

Lets treat it like salt. If you spill a little salt its not the end of the world. Things adapt, things survive, its not that big of a deal. The environment deals with it. Now if you keep spilling salt in the same spot over and over and over it starts to concentrate. Becomes a problem and you have a real difficult time getting rid of it.

CWD acts in much the same way. It is a protein. It is not alive. It can not "die". It can be destroyed, at extreme temperatures, or with chemicals that break down the protein. Nature has difficulty dealing with it in large quantities.

If you concentrate animals in one place, over a long period of time, the higher the concentration of the protein. This just isn't a baiting issue, its a feed storage issue. In the CWD zone I would like to see bale yards fenced. Spread the deer out. In the low densities we have the spread of CWD should be slow.

I know they are working on a live test and a vaccination.

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

OK, lets do this again. CWD is not like any disease you know. It is not infectious the same as any other disease.

Lets treat it like salt. If you spill a little salt its not the end of the world. Things adapt, things survive, its not that big of a deal. The environment deals with it. Now if you keep spilling salt in the same spot over and over and over it starts to concentrate. Becomes a problem and you have a real difficult time getting rid of it.

CWD acts in much the same way. It is a protein. It is not alive. It can not "die". It can be destroyed, at extreme temperatures, or with chemicals that break down the protein. Nature has difficulty dealing with it in large quantities.

If you concentrate animals in one place, over a long period of time, the higher the concentration of the protein. This just isn't a baiting issue, its a feed storage issue. In the CWD zone I would like to see bale yards fenced. Spread the deer out. In the low densities we have the spread of CWD should be slow.

I know they are working on a live test and a vaccination.

LOL...ever feel like you are beating your head against a wall sometimes.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...ever feel like you are beating your head against a wall sometimes.

Yes I do.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

OK, lets do this again. CWD is not like any disease you know. It is not infectious the same as any other disease.

Lets treat it like salt. If you spill a little salt its not the end of the world. Things adapt, things survive, its not that big of a deal. The environment deals with it. Now if you keep spilling salt in the same spot over and over and over it starts to concentrate. Becomes a problem and you have a real difficult time getting rid of it.

CWD acts in much the same way. It is a protein. It is not alive. It can not "die". It can be destroyed, at extreme temperatures, or with chemicals that break down the protein. Nature has difficulty dealing with it in large quantities.

If you concentrate animals in one place, over a long period of time, the higher the concentration of the protein. This just isn't a baiting issue, its a feed storage issue. In the CWD zone I would like to see bale yards fenced. Spread the deer out. In the low densities we have the spread of CWD should be slow.

I know they are working on a live test and a vaccination.

Hey Donkey oatey.....
How would the gov be able to vaccinate wild deer populations?..Not sure if you know.... but I can't imagine how they could accomplish this or the costs....Would this even be possible???. I kind of got that reaction when I phoned the Edm fish and game yesterday.... I didn't have time to discuss it with her , but she did mention slowing the disease til we can find a vaccine.....

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by NIKON

Hey Donkey oatey.....
How would the gov be able to vaccinate wild deer populations?..Not sure if you know.... but I can't imagine how they could accomplish this or the costs....Would this even be possible???. I kind of got that reaction when I phoned the Edm fish and game yesterday.... I didn't have time to discuss it with her , but she did mention slowing the disease til we can find a vaccine.....

Depends on how the vaccine needs to be delivered. That might be the opening for baiting. Medicated feed. Lets get to the vaccine first.

Slowing the spread is a good idea, don't you think? Or just let it spread unchecked? Or just stick our heads in the sand?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by NIKON

Hey Donkey oatey.....
How would the gov be able to vaccinate wild deer populations?..Not sure if you know.... but I can't imagine how they could accomplish this or the costs....Would this even be possible???...

I think they could use helicopters to shoot medicated darts into them.....seemed effective in culling them....

How do you vaccinate against a prion?....are we going to start a camo ribbon campaign to find a cure?

LC

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by NIKON

Hey Donkey oatey.....
How would the gov be able to vaccinate wild deer populations?..Not sure if you know.... but I can't imagine how they could accomplish this or the costs....Would this even be possible???. I kind of got that reaction when I phoned the Edm fish and game yesterday.... I didn't have time to discuss it with her , but she did mention slowing the disease til we can find a vaccine.....

Pipe dream hey, prime example of wasted resources and time to justify their own existence really

Bet ya the game farms can't wait for this vaccine to be developed

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Wow...with comments like that who really needs the anti hunter to do any work? Another example that illustrates that hunters will gladly eat their own....

I agree with the part of your post where you bring up legality and think that's important, however if you don't think that public opinion, fair chase concepts, etc can drive legislation your eyes are closed...

Okay so you don't agree. How do you see fair chase?
Remember I hunt with a rifle, not a bow. I just said that in my opinion what I do is not fair chase. And I specified what I think is fair chase.

Since you disagree maybe you'd care to share your concept of fair chase with the rest of us.

And BTW, I did not say anything about public opinion not driving legislation.
I have no idea how you could have got that from my post.
Would you care to explain?

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Depends on how the vaccine needs to be delivered. That might be the opening for baiting. Medicated feed. Lets get to the vaccine first.

Slowing the spread is a good idea, don't you think? Or just let it spread unchecked? Or just stick our heads in the sand?

Next they will figure out that natural predators might take the sick and easy targets ? Could this be why this disease is not spreading like most are led to believe ?

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I think they could use helicopters to shoot medicated darts into them.....seemed effective in culling them....

How do you vaccinate against a prion?....are we going to start a camo ribbon campaign to find a cure?

LC

I sat in on a talk with a doctor that is working on a vaccine. The way he explained it is that the prion is misfolded. What they are looking for is a specific fold that is different from normal cells that they can then engineer a "hook" that will grab that fold and would then be identifiable by the body as something that is wrong and have the bodies own defences attack those cells. But not the normal cells.

The prion works by attaching to a normal protein and causes it to fold to match the prion. They hang out in chains, folding proteins to match them. The cells are still the bodies own so the immune system doesn't recognize them.

Hopefully that made sense.

So now the peanut gallery comes out and has snide remarks. How typical. And yes I am sure elk and deer farmers would love to see a vaccine.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Cancer is an analogy for CWD and the human body was an analogy for for the province of Alberta. The cancer spreads within the body just as CWD is spreading within Alberta.

I'm pretty sure I know what I meant, they were my words....lol.....

So in a thread about how baiting may or may not be causing CWD to be passed to other deer at an alarming rate through herding, and contact. When the short phrase spreading like cancer is used we are suppose to read that deep into your analogies? Is this an upper division Lit class?? Because I have taken mine already and hatted them
But thanks for clarifying.

I am interested to know if you feel our province is managed well? In terms of regulations, enforcement, and fish and game populations.

Originally Posted by justinO

So in a thread about how baiting may or may not be causing CWD to be passed to other deer at an alarming rate through herding, and contact. When the short phrase spreading like cancer is used we are suppose to read that deep into your analogies? Is this an upper division Lit class?? Because I have taken mine already and hatted them
But thanks for clarifying.

I am interested to know if you feel our province is managed well? In terms of regulations, enforcement, and fish and game populations.

Glad I could explain it.....

I feel we could be doing a lot better job for sure. I've never been shy about saying that.

[petew]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I don't believe for a second, that cwd has anything to do with why hunting over bait is illegal. If esrd, was that concerned about it, they wouldn't allow baiting for pictures.

We need clarification, and some re wording in our regulations. We need to prohibit baiting for ungulates, period. We need to prohibit the sale of baits and attractants in stores.Depending on what's used, and where. Some grains could be an agricultural disaster, with invasive species being introduced and unregulated.

Well said. The so called " baiting for pictures" is just a play with words. look at the amount of baits sold in stores during hunting season.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

I sat in on a talk with a doctor that is working on a vaccine. The way he explained it is that the prion is misfolded. What they are looking for is a specific fold that is different from normal cells that they can then engineer a "hook" that will grab that fold and would then be identifiable by the body as something that is wrong and have the bodies own defences attack those cells. But not the normal cells.

The prion works by attaching to a normal protein and causes it to fold to match the prion. They hang out in chains, folding proteins to match them. The cells are still the bodies own so the immune system doesn't recognize them.

Hopefully that made sense.

So now the peanut gallery comes out and has snide remarks. How typical. And yes I am sure elk and deer farmers would love to see a vaccine.

I am just wondering where the funding to find the infected deer then vaccinate these deer is going to come from? Or are we going to vaccinate all deer, seems like a long shot when we cannot even take a population survey once a year. All I hear after every horrible decision made is we don't have the finances to do it properly.
SO YES I DO FEEL LIKE SMASHING MY HEAD AGAINST THE WALL!!!!!

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Glad I could explain it.....

I feel we could be doing a lot better job for sure. I've never been shy about saying that.

Ok we agree then.
What about food plots should those be legal in your opinion?

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by justinO

I am just wondering where the funding to find the infected deer then vaccinate these deer is going to come from? Or are we going to vaccinate all deer, seems like a long shot when we cannot even take a population survey once a year. All I hear after every horrible decision made is we don't have the finances to do it properly.
SO YES I DO FEEL LIKE SMASHING MY HEAD AGAINST THE WALL!!!!!

http://www.ccwhc.ca/partners.php

This isn't just an Alberta problem. Lots of partners. lots of interested parties.

Don't just stick your head in the sand.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Okay so you don't agree. How do you see fair chase?
Remember I hunt with a rifle, not a bow. I just said that in my opinion what I do is not fair chase. And I specified what I think is fair chase.

Since you disagree maybe you'd care to share your concept of fair chase with the rest of us.

And BTW, I did not say anything about public opinion not driving legislation.
I have no idea how you could have got that from my post.
Would you care to explain?

Gladly....I'm just happy I didnt get a warning for disagreeing with you this time!

Well...lets start with an organization that defines it...

"FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals. "

Does using a rifle give us an advantage over bow hunting? Yes...it sure does.

Does baiting give us an advantage? Yes, it does.

Does running them down in a truck give us an advantage? Yes..and one could say an 'improper' advantage.

It doesnt take a really intelligent person to see where I drew the lines between public opinion, fair chase, and legislation. For the most part, if something gives hunters an 'improper' advantage, public opinion often will sway legislators to control it. When I hear a "hunter" saying that hunting with a rifle isnt fair chase it makes me cringe is all...

I beleive that a very large majority of hunters care about 'fair chase' and want to know that they are not taking steps that are giving them an improper advantage. To make a blanket statement that you 'dont care' about fair chase and then define the difference between archery and rifle hunting is showing your own biases and truly helps attack ethical hunting practices from within.

Why worry so much about pool noodles or guys shooting from vehicles if you truly dont care about fair chase???? Hmmmmm.....

A guy can go round and round on this one, which I'm not interested in doing (with you especially), but my only point is that I dont expect to hear a "hunter" saying he doesnt care about any fair chase practices. Makes me think you're actually defining it differently than the majority of hunters or just rambling without substance...

Originally Posted by justinO

Ok we agree then.
What about food plots should those be legal in your opinion?

Not sure I really have an opinion on them.....I don't fully understand their relationship and the spread of disease. If it's proven that they increase the risk of spreading disease, then I'd have to say no....if not.....I haven't really given it much thought.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

http://www.ccwhc.ca/partners.php

This isn't just an Alberta problem. Lots of partners. lots of interested parties.

Don't just stick your head in the sand.

I tried my best to stick my head in the sand when they were gunning down healthy deer populations with ariel sharp shooters..... But just couldn't.. I tried to stick my head in the sand when they were burying X amount of deer in pits ,
But I just couldn't......

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

I sat in on a talk with a doctor that is working on a vaccine. The way he explained it is that the prion is misfolded. What they are looking for is a specific fold that is different from normal cells that they can then engineer a "hook" that will grab that fold and would then be identifiable by the body as something that is wrong and have the bodies own defences attack those cells. But not the normal cells.

The prion works by attaching to a normal protein and causes it to fold to match the prion. They hang out in chains, folding proteins to match them. The cells are still the bodies own so the immune system doesn't recognize them.

Hopefully that made sense.

So now the peanut gallery comes out and has snide remarks. How typical. And yes I am sure elk and deer farmers would love to see a vaccine.

Sorry if you took my remarks a little too seriously....

My point is they wrapped up a bunch of dollars and resources in trying to "eradicate" something that has been proven in the past to be "non-eradicatable"....I think that the time, effort and money could have been spent doing much better things than gunning deer from choppers....don't you agree that money could have been much better spent?

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Sorry if you took my remarks a little too seriously....

My point is they wrapped up a bunch of dollars and resources in trying to "eradicate" something that has been proven in the past to be "non-eradicatable"....I think that the time, effort and money could have been spent doing much better things than gunning deer from choppers....don't you agree that money could have been much better spent?

LC

I think you are a bit confused...the cull was never about erradication of CWD in Alberta.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I think you are a bit confused...the cull was never about erradication of CWD in Alberta.

It was for shooting practice then I suppose

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

It was for shooting practice then I suppose

LC

I suspect this is you trying to be funny again?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I suspect this is you trying to be funny again?

What its not working? ....dang

LC