Petition to Ban Waterfowl Outfitting in Alberta

[drake]

Originally Posted by spudislander

Why does almost everything on here instantly dissolve into personal attacks rather than logical debate? How about you hear the guy out (but it would have been nice if he posted his argument at the start of the thread) before jumping on him and telling him to go buy some Vagisil or join PETA.

You think old Buck Gardner would be putting you on his field staff if he wasnt able to get "no hassel" guided hunts on the Canadian prairies?....the zinks, foiles, and Gardner's of the world use outfitters to one extent or another.

[Jerry D]

Obviously i would prefer if NO ONE ELSE hunted in my region, but thats not going to happen. The five big outfitters are going to keep outiffting, and the locals are going to keep hunting. It is up to me to scout harder than all of them....simple

Agreed but its hard to scout harder than outfitters who do it full time don't you think?

Competition is also increasing due to the influx of out of province outdoorsman flocking to alberta for jobs. I would like to see a manditory waiting period of two years for anyone chooseing to relocate to our province and wishing to hunt......they have that rule in the NWT and Yukon if im not mistaken.

I completely disagree with the 2 year waiting period - especially for experienced hunters that are either 1 - moving because of jobs or 2 - moving because Alberta offers by far imo some of the best hunting in all of Canada - the reason I disagree is because I'm coming out west in a year as long as things work and I don't want to wait to get right into things.

[ABDUKNUT]

You're clueless if you think NAFTA has anything to do with duck and goose outfitting in Alberta. The privledges that outfitters enjoy here were lobbied through APOS and granted to them by the representatives of licenced Alberta sportsmen and taxpayers; namely; the Alberta Provincial Government.

Requiring non-resident alien gamebird hunters to use an outfitter in Alberta is a fantasy that will never become a reality, regardless of repeated distortion, illusion and fear-mongering by APOS. Even non-resident alien hunters want to see APOS and Gamebird Outfitters disappear in the rear-view mirror. Nowhere in North America, including Mexico is a guide legally required to hunt waterfowl and it should always be that way.

[drake]

[QUOTE=Jerry D;389688]Agreed but its hard to scout harder than outfitters who do it full time don't you think?QUOTE]


Is it hard?....its not easy....but its also tougher to out-spot the local who watches the birds fly over his house every morning. Get out there, make some local friends, learn how to scout, learn your area, and learn where the pressure is. Thats a sure fire way to find some good shooting.......

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Stewie

Yeah I take lots of buddies from BC and other provinces as well for free... the majority of outfitters I have ran into are guiding Americans who need guides...

If you want to waste your time and write up a petition then go ahead... like was said in a post earlier thie petition divides hunters...

Were all on the same team dont forget that...

agree, we're all on the same team....but check your facts....Americans don't NEED guides to hunt waterfowl in Alberta

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by drake

Is it hard?....its not easy....but its also tougher to out-spot the local who watches the birds fly over his house every morning. Get out there, make some local friends, learn how to scout, learn your area, and learn where the pressure is. Thats a sure fire way to find some good shooting.......

With all due respect, I see the logic in your statement, but I fear we're on a path to where waterfowl hunting opportunities become more and more limited to the casual hunter, to the point where they give up altogether. It's happening everywhere else, so what makes you think Alberta is immune to this phenomena? Ask somebody in one of the bigger Metro areas in the US or even in the more populated parts of Canada- Outfitters are gaining more and more opportunity, at the expense of the local hunter. Waterfowl should be considered a public resource, and steps should be taken to reverse the trend in which accees to this resource is unappropriately monopolized by a select few greed-driven individuals.

[spudislander]

Originally Posted by drake

You think old Buck Gardner would be putting you on his field staff if he wasnt able to get "no hassel" guided hunts on the Canadian prairies?....the zinks, foiles, and Gardner's of the world use outfitters to one extent or another.

I didn't weigh in on the issue one way or the other. Let's take this to PMs.

[fishmonger535]

Wow, what a response to this. I grew up living a half a mile where tens of thousands of geese and ducks would stage on their way through. I have duck, goose hunted passionately for 30 years. I raised wild geese, worked with DU, Alberta bird atlas etc. I have found frustrations with guides over the past few years, as i have moved and hunt closer to the city. But, I still find birds to hunt every time i go out, and you dont always need the field with thousands of birds to have a good hunt. You need to spend the time on decoying, calling, layout, watching the birds and what they do. Last weekend, I couldnt get permission on four different fields, all were taken by guides. I went on the field with just 50 geese the night before. The next day, with all the shooting, our calling and decoys, we had our limit of 16 in 30 minutes. I think the guys who support this petition, sorry if I am wrong, are frustrated, and I understand that, but keep trying. And I take 15-20 new guys out a year for free, to get them into the sport. I have converted 7 guys from work into total waterfowl nuts, not sure if the wives like me.. lol but I'll take anyone anytime. Also some guides are fair as well. I have found out which ones are on that field and called and once in a while, they will tell you to take one of those shoots. Most of them are old boy farmers like me who love it, but have taken the risk to make money at it. Anyways, im babbling. Good luck with your quest, and good luck with the birds.
D

[Walleyes]

Originally Posted by spudislander

Why does almost everything on here instantly dissolve into personal attacks rather than logical debate? How about you hear the guy out (but it would have been nice if he posted his argument at the start of the thread) before jumping on him and telling him to go buy some Vagisil or join PETA.

Because He wants to ban hunting,, what do you expect on an outdoors site,, support ??

He is talking about banning a group of people that make a living off of a natural resource of this province. Nothing different than the logging, mining, oil field or power generation plants and so on.. Just because sometime through out this guy's short lived hunting life he has run into a situation that just didn't quite fit into his perspective of perfect he thinks its bad and should be banned,, what the F are we talking about here ???

How such a thing at this stage in our water foul management could even be discussed is ludicrous.. Where in the he11 in tnis province are you pushed out of water fouling because of outfitters ?? drive 2 miles for crying out loud and find another field,,, Geesh.. This just gets older by the day man.

We are going to start a list on this forum,, we are going to call it the BANN WAGON,, and there is a whole sh!t load that are going on it..

[rottie]

I agree with Ab on this one, I can spend hours scouting only to find the guides have them all tied up. Some of these shoots will never even be shot
How can we expect to introduce young folks into the sport if they dont get the chance to get out?

We complain our sport is dying yet we give the chances to a wealthy few and ignore our own youth

[spudislander]

Originally Posted by Walleyes

Because He wants to ban hunting,, what do you expect on an outdoors site,, support ??

He is talking about banning a group of people that make a living off of a natural resource of this province. Nothing different than the logging, mining, oil field or power generation plants and so on.. Just because sometime through out this guy's short lived hunting life he has run into a situation that just didn't quite fit into his perspective of perfect he thinks its bad and should be banned,, what the F are we talking about here ???

How such a thing at this stage in our water foul management could even be discussed is ludicrous.. Where in the he11 in tnis province are you pushed out of water fouling because of outfitters ?? drive 2 miles for crying out loud and find another field,,, Geesh.. This just gets older by the day man.

We are going to start a list on this forum,, we are going to call it the BANN WAGON,, and there is a whole sh!t load that are going on it..

PM sent.

[WkndWarrior]

You will never get anywhere thinking that far ahead. First introduce some regulations specific to outfitters. I am sure the crowd can think of a few hundred.
Heres mine.

Maximum of 2 licenced outfitters per 150sq KM?

[ALBTUFF]

I agree the outfitters do make it TUFF to find good shoots but a buddy and I found out a couple of years ago, if you find out when the outfitters wrap there seasons up, go out and try getting permission on those same fields. 9 times out of 10 they give you access because the outfitters are done for the year. It maybe late season but hey hunting canadas in snow covered fields is a blast!

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by Walleyes

He is talking about banning a group of people that make a living off of a natural resource of this province. Nothing different than the logging, mining, oil field or power generation plants and so on..

So you're comparing goose outfitting to the oil field?

[jaylow?]

i think outfitting and guiding as a whole is getting out of control. i dont like looking at our wildlife as a quick turn of profit. the more money is dumped into outfitters who buy up the access rights to land for non residents to hunt just pushes our own alberta residents out , soon albertans are going to be gathering buddys and pooling money together to buy access rights before the guides do...just like in the states. i for one am so glad that large landowners were not given tags to sell. that would truly be the beginning of the end.

jmho.

[whitetail Junkie]

Less americans in canada the better.Look at there country.99% of the land is private,which you half the time have to pay for access,plus lots of them hunt in game farms.most americans in my opinion are not hunters,they are just killers.Just my opinion,keep canada for canadians! They want are oil,water,lumber,and soon it will be are game once they start buying up land here and posting it.Its already begun in saskatchewan where I hunt for whitetail.: mad3:

[Walleyes]

Originally Posted by ABDUKNUT

So you're comparing goose outfitting to the oil field?

Damn rites I am.. Its a natural resource of this province just like any other.. To think otherwise is well,, dumb how else would you explain it..

[jaylow?]

Originally Posted by Walleyes

Damn rites I am.. Its a natural resource of this province just like any other.. To think otherwise is well,, dumb how else would you explain it..

you cant be serious.....thats what you think of albertas wildlife...no better than whats pumped out of the ground or hauled out with a skidder. your a real outdoorsmen ! wildlife deserves better than outdoorsmen with that attitude. real outdoorsmen are supposed to be true conservationists.

[Walleyes]

O.K then explain to me what a natural resource is,, and how it should be handled by the people.. If our wildlife is not a natural resource than what is it,, with all the emotional and tear dropping B.S. left out of it...

I ask this because you can not judge on sentiment or feelings you have to judge on fact.. So if there is no fact to back up the argument that outfitting for water foul is bad for water foul then its all for nothing.. Outfitters are doing little or no damage to our water foul population all they are doing is causing some discomfort and extra work for a few individuals,, sorry thats no argument for a bann.. Thats an argument for a radical..

[spudislander]

I told you how I stand on this in a PM and now I'll tell you the same thing here. But as long as you feel the need to accuse me of just the opposite to boost your own ego here it is;

I don't support an outright ban on waterfowl outfitting.

I agree that it has to monitored and run properly though. I've seen what happens when Non-residents move in and take over the guiding and lease all of the land so the locals get less hunting opportunity. No one ever thought that would happen on PEI, but it did.

Despite what you say I'm not trying to run anyone off of anything. But that's a question you can ask the outfitters who offered me guiding jobs this year. They know where I'm from yet they have no problem with it.

And as for being a Prince Edward Islander, I am and damn proud of it. We all had to come from somewhere. I'm not here to take advantage of anything and if you feel the need to go cry to my employer feel free.

[trouty]

how do these outfitters tie up all these properties? why are these landowners giving access only to them, are they being paid? Spend your time proving they are paying for access, time better spent then a petition which nobody will sign

[TreeGuy]

Settle down Wally. There's 10's of thousands of us from Maritimes out here trying to make better lives for ourselves and our families. I'm from NS, and consider myself a DAMN PROUD ALBERTAN! I sure as hell didn't move here for the hunting, I came here because it is one of the best places in the world to live, work and raise a family with good people. Yer wound up bud.......take a moment.

ABDUK.........WTF?? Where's the petition? Where's your facts? Where's your write up? I'm not a waterfowler, so I need to be educated a bit before I decide to sign onto a petition to BAN HUNTING! I'm sorry I've even taken the bait on this one...........

Tree

[muleguide]

You should spend less time whining and complaining and more time scouting and hunting and life would be a little more fun.

[Walleyes]

I'm sorry I've even taken the bait on this one...........

Yup !!

[Fish Hooked]

I am not sure why we need to " Ban Waterfowl outfitting in Alberta. There is more than enough birds around, I have been to many parts of Alberta where there is lots of birds around only to find out that there is not a lot of people in the area that hunt waterfowl.
And if that most of the good hunts are taken it could be that someone and not only a outfitter did his homework and legwork and found the shoots found where the birds are roosting or where they are puddling as well as feeding and tracked down the land owner and asked for permission. It most cases this takes more than a day or two in some cases this can take 3 or 4 days otr longer of spotting to do this.
As well if you look at the rules that are in place now from the goverment in regards to waterfowl outfitters and where they can hunt, they had an auction a couple of years agao for WMU's and there was a limit on the number of WMU's that you could have as well as location. If you contact APOS and see what is involved in being a waterfowl outfitter you may be surprized at the amount of time and money that is spent before you even get in the field as well as rules to follow. And if it is a matter of not being able to find a hunt maybe do as others do and spend your time in the field and find them (birds) they are everywhere. Do the leg work that is part of the hunt.
Thanks

[ceedub]

I am definitely on AB's side on this one. The waterfowl outfitting industry is so out of control in some areas of this province it's pathetic, some of the antics that I've been witness to in the last couple of years are unbelievable and I won't even get into them on a public forum for obvious reasons.

Those who haven't been witness to this or don't believe it, haven't spent much time in the prime migratory hunting areas in recent years or refuse to acknowledge what's really happening out there.

Sour grapes you say, think what you want. I get my share of birds and work hard for them. To think though that banning the outfitting industry for birds is going to affect the economy in a big way is ridiculous, add up the numbers and in the grand scheme of things it's not a large amount.

I was asked by an outfitter last fall to abandon my shoot on adjacent land to where they had permission as they had "paying customers that won't tolerate a lack of success", that's what wrong with the industry right there. They will go to great lengths and cross some ethical boundaries to make paying customers happy, in a sport where success should never be guaranteed.

I'll happily sign the petition.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by ABDUKNUT

So you're comparing goose outfitting to the oil field?

No, he is comparing wildlife to oil - both up for sale to those with the money to buy.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Walleyes

O.K then explain to me what a natural resource is,, and how it should be handled by the people.. If our wildlife is not a natural resource than what is it,, with all the emotional and tear dropping B.S. left out of it...

I ask this because you can not judge on sentiment or feelings you have to judge on fact.. So if there is no fact to back up the argument that outfitting for water foul is bad for water foul then its all for nothing.. Outfitters are doing little or no damage to our water foul population all they are doing is causing some discomfort and extra work for a few individuals,, sorry thats no argument for a bann.. Thats an argument for a radical..

The guiding principles on which the wildlife management regulations in this country were built were that the wildlife of the province belonged to the people of the province for their enjoyment and sustenance. They were not a commodity to be bought and sold, nor was access to them a commodity to be bought and sold. There are a great number of people who believe that those guiding principles should hold in this day of commercialization of all things. We are seeing the erosion of the principle of free access and we are seeing the erosion of the principle of "by the people, for the people."

Do we need a total ban on outfitting? I don't think so. But we most certainly do not need an oilfield/forestry model applied either. It wasn't right for the big game outfitting and it isn't right for the waterfowl oufitting. Big Business is lobbying hard for it to become the status quo.

[Vindalbakken]

[QUOTE=drake;389693]

Originally Posted by Jerry D

Agreed but its hard to scout harder than outfitters who do it full time don't you think?QUOTE]


Is it hard?....its not easy....but its also tougher to out-spot the local who watches the birds fly over his house every morning. Get out there, make some local friends, learn how to scout, learn your area, and learn where the pressure is. Thats a sure fire way to find some good shooting.......

A dozen or more trucks on the road every day in a 70 mile radius of the lodge scouting, watching and sitting on 6 shoots/day (3 groups, morning and night). That is what you are competing with around here.

[SBE2]

A dozen spotters per day for a lodge, with 3 shoots per morning and 3 per night??? Out of curiosity, where would this be? I know an Outfitter east of Edmonton, he is one of of the bigger and more respected for sure, also has a lot of clients compared to most. But the numbers you put up there are near double of what he has, so I was just wondering....thanks.