Petition to Ban Waterfowl Outfitting in Alberta

[Vindalbakken]

East Central. One of three lodges operating within a stones' throw, so to speak. I hear things have slowed down considerably for all of them this year.

[SBE2]

Buffalo Lake, Stettler, Lloyd, Veg., Camrose, have heard of many places labeled as east central, lot being a smart a**, just wanted to know as that is way more than I have ever heard anyone running as far as guides, spotters, hunts, and clients. And yes, I have also heard that client numbers are down.

[Cooeylover]

Band this, ban that, as soon as i hear the word BAN, i think of GUN CONTROL!!
If we start BANNING things, where will the BAN stop? Its crazy to trust the government to be a success at BANNING this after seeing everything else they have screwed up.
Put the government in control of anything and they will screw it up.
Be carefull of what you wish for, cause things never go`as you planned` when dealing with the government. Thay always out their type of `spin` on it.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by WkndWarrior

You will never get anywhere thinking that far ahead. First introduce some regulations specific to outfitters. I am sure the crowd can think of a few hundred.
Heres mine.

Maximum of 2 licenced outfitters per 150sq KM?

You may want to rethink that number.

[Jerry D]

I was asked by an outfitter last fall to abandon my shoot on adjacent land to where they had permission as they had "paying customers that won't tolerate a lack of success", that's what wrong with the industry right there. They will go to great lengths and cross some ethical boundaries to make paying customers happy, in a sport where success should never be guaranteed.

That would **** me right the hell off. I'd stay there if I could put out a better decoy spread and call better than that guide. I'd bring the birds into me and get him to move the hell out.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by ceedub

I am definitely on AB's side on this one. The waterfowl outfitting industry is so out of control in some areas of this province it's pathetic, some of the antics that I've been witness to in the last couple of years are unbelievable and I won't even get into them on a public forum for obvious reasons.

Those who haven't been witness to this or don't believe it, haven't spent much time in the prime migratory hunting areas in recent years or refuse to acknowledge what's really happening out there.

Sour grapes you say, think what you want. I get my share of birds and work hard for them. To think though that banning the outfitting industry for birds is going to affect the economy in a big way is ridiculous, add up the numbers and in the grand scheme of things it's not a large amount.

I was asked by an outfitter last fall to abandon my shoot on adjacent land to where they had permission as they had "paying customers that won't tolerate a lack of success", that's what wrong with the industry right there. They will go to great lengths and cross some ethical boundaries to make paying customers happy, in a sport where success should never be guaranteed.

I'll happily sign the petition.

This is what I dont get. You have a large size rant about Outfitters. Yet the biggest and best example you can come up with is a polite request to move?

Ballsy..YES
Unethical or rude.. No

So did you move???

Jamie

[drake]

Believe me i understand the frustration some people on here are feeling. but outfitting is not going away....Guiding provided me with a living when no other options were avaliable. In all that time i rarely saw another hunter out spotting or hunting and this was north of Camrose. I could drive around on a friday night and get permission on a field or two as options for the following morning. The same local guy is capable of doing the same thing. Commit to an area,find the birds, and knock on a door....learn where and how to spot. It is a pretty simple formula for success. Get off the pavement and you will be amazed whats out there. Those big obvious shoots on hwy 16 are hard to get because thousands of people drive by them everyday.

Originally Posted by Jamie

This is what I dont get. You have a large size rant about Outfitters. Yet the biggest and best example you can come up with is a polite request to move?

Ballsy..YES
Unethical or rude.. No

So did you move???

Jamie

Where in that post did you get that it was a polite request? Just being asked to move is not ballsy it is downright rude and bordering on unethical in my books. If you were there first and had been all setup and ready to go and some Joe Blow came over and asked you to move you would not think this was rude? Or is it just that he is an outfitter that you think this was ok?

I would call what this person did (I could care less whether it was an outfitter or not) arrogance more than anything else.

Bubba

[drake]

Originally Posted by bubbasno1

Where in that post did you get that it was a polite request? Just being asked to move is not ballsy it is downright rude and bordering on unethical in my books. If you were there first and had been all setup and ready to go and some Joe Blow came over and asked you to move you would not think this was rude? Or is it just that he is an outfitter that you think this was ok?

I would call what this person did (I could care less whether it was an outfitter or not) arrogance more than anything else.

Bubba

And you dont think a local has ever gotten in a confrontation with another hunter. Get real. When i was 18 I had old fella nearly knock my head off when he found me set up in the same field he was planning on hunting (fyi land manager double booked the field). If a farmer says he has given permission to more than one party i always try to be the first on there and set up, and kindly ask the other group to move on....if that doesnt work, i ALWAYS have a plan B. Two set ups in one field = no birds for either party more times than not.

[russ]

Originally Posted by SBE2

Buffalo Lake, Stettler, Lloyd, Veg., Camrose, have heard of many places labeled as east central, lot being a smart a**, just wanted to know as that is way more than I have ever heard anyone running as far as guides, spotters, hunts, and clients. And yes, I have also heard that client numbers are down.

I know Vindal personally, one lodge is on the Ribstone Creek, one is on the Battle River and I think the other is on Sullivan Lake. The 1st 2 are within 25 miles of each other.


And I don't consider 2/3rds of the places you've listed as even being close to east central alberta. To me it's the Hwy 12 & 13 corridors stretching from Saskatchewan & ending between Viking & Camrose. Central Alberta has to exist somewhere and I certainly don't count Camrose, Vermillion, Vegreville or Lloyd as part of it. That's known as the Parkland IMHO.

[lake side]

Myself and a buddy had a shoot lined up last year from a local farmer and while watching the night before an outfitter that knew we had permission drove up and pleaded to join the shoot. Said he would supply dogs, dekes' blinds ect. After some debate we agreed, shoot came and went. Was a good shoot bird wise but the guide was an erogant know it all dick. The set up was marginal. His calling sucked. All I asked was that the outfitter email me some pics as my camera died. Well after calling and emailing Kevin nothing yet. After speaking with the land owner he said he definatly does not like outfitters on his land and we almost screwd it for ourselfs. Although we are still able to hunt his land he said no more outfitters on his or his familys land as they like to hunt and want to see more local guys out their.
I do have to admit that the outfitter and wife were very friendly, but seemed only concerned with their clients and not our concerns.
I for one will not let an other outfitter on one of our hunts as we can probably set up better than some out their and we are sucessful in our own right.

My 2 bits

[ceedub]

Originally Posted by Jamie

This is what I dont get. You have a large size rant about Outfitters. Yet the biggest and best example you can come up with is a polite request to move?

Ballsy..YES
Unethical or rude.. No

So did you move???

Jamie

Jamie, If you would read the whole post I did state that I didn't want to get into too many details on a public forum, believe me it's way more than one incident.

Did I move, of course not! I spent the time scouting, spotting and making arrangements with the landowner just like everyone else. I own land too, this shoot happened to be on someone else's land but I do know what goes on out there.

Originally Posted by drake

And you dont think a local has ever gotten in a confrontation with another hunter. Get real. When i was 18 I had old fella nearly knock my head off when he found me set up in the same field he was planning on hunting (fyi land manager double booked the field). If a farmer says he has given permission to more than one party i always try to be the first on there and set up, and kindly ask the other group to move on....if that doesnt work, i ALWAYS have a plan B. Two set ups in one field = no birds for either party more times than not.

I think you need to re-read my post as I clearly stated "(I could care less whether it was an outfitter or not)". My post applies to everyone. I do not discriminate.


Bubba

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by bubbasno1

Where in that post did you get that it was a polite request? Just being asked to move is not ballsy it is downright rude and bordering on unethical in my books. If you were there first and had been all setup and ready to go and some Joe Blow came over and asked you to move you would not think this was rude? Or is it just that he is an outfitter that you think this was ok?

I would call what this person did (I could care less whether it was an outfitter or not) arrogance more than anything else.

Bubba

Where in the post did you find ANYTHING that said he was rude?
I like to look at a glass as 1/2 full.. You on the other hand?????

Why does it allways have to be a confrontation?

If a guy didnt want to move.. He could have just said so and wished each other good luck.

Jamie

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by ceedub

Jamie, If you would read the whole post I did state that I didn't want to get into too many details on a public forum, believe me it's way more than one incident.

Did I move, of course not! I spent the time scouting, spotting and making arrangements with the landowner just like everyone else. I own land too, this shoot happened to be on someone else's land but I do know what goes on out there.

I did read the whole post. The ONLY example you gave was that some guide asked you to move.

So what?? That is no reason for banning GUIDES. Now if you have actuall proof of wrong doings.. Then post away.

Jamie

Originally Posted by Jamie

Where in the post did you find ANYTHING that said he was rude?
I like to look at a glass as 1/2 full.. You on the other hand?????

Why does it allways have to be a confrontation?

If a guy didnt want to move.. He could have just said so and wished each other good luck.

Jamie

I never said "he" was rude. I said the act was rude. Which it was and always will be.

Would you seriously go and ask somebody to move even though they were there first and had every right to be there?

You are right there did not need to be a confrontation. The person, outfitter or not, should never have even asked them to move.

Bubba

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by bubbasno1

Where in that post did you get that it was a polite request?

Bubba

Where in that post did you get it wasent a POLITE request.

Who knows, perhaps this guide thought the hunter was set up to close to the fence line?

I am not saying he was, but the guide might have.

I always look at this type of sittuation as a opportunity to meet someone new. Perhaps if the original poster had done this guide a favour he might have returned it some how.

Just a thought anyhow.

Jamie

[ceedub]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I did read the whole post. The ONLY example you gave was that some guide asked you to move.

So what?? That is no reason for banning GUIDES. Now if you have actuall proof of wrong doings.. Then post away.

Jamie

I've seen what happens on this forum to guys that "post away" with story's of wrongdoing's against outfitters. Rather than explain to those who wouldn't listen to start with, I'll just sign the petition thank you.

Originally Posted by Jamie

Where in that post did you get it wasent a POLITE request.

Who knows, perhaps this guide thought the hunter was set up to close to the fence line?

I am not saying he was, but the guide might have.

I always look at this type of sittuation as a opportunity to meet someone new. Perhaps if the original poster had done this guide a favour he might have returned it some how.

Just a thought anyhow.

Jamie

All that I am saying Jamie is the act itself was very rude and borderline unethical. I could care less if he went over with a box of chocolates and asked very politely. Or if he stormed in and was a dink. You just don't do that.

I will ask you again.

Would you seriously go and ask somebody to move even though they were there first and had every right to be there?

Bubba

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by ceedub

I've seen what happens on this forum to guys that "post away" with story's of wrongdoing's against outfitters. Rather than explain to those who wouldn't listen to start with, I'll just sign the petition thank you.

X2!!!

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by bubbasno1

All that I am saying Jamie is the act itself was very rude and borderline unethical. I could care less if he went over with a box of chocolates and asked very politely. Or if he stormed in and was a dink. You just don't do that.

I will ask you again.

Would you seriously go and ask somebody to move even though they were there first and had every right to be there?

Bubba

Who said he was there first?????
If I was the first to set up, I wouldnt mind going over for a little chat.

Jamie

Originally Posted by Jamie

Who said he was there first?????
If I was the first to set up, I wouldnt mind going over for a little chat.

Jamie

I guess we will never know who was setup first.

but here is the actual quote from Ceedub

"I was asked by an outfitter last fall to abandon my shoot on adjacent land to where they had permission as they had "paying customers that won't tolerate a lack of success", that's what wrong with the industry right there. They will go to great lengths and cross some ethical boundaries to make paying customers happy, in a sport where success should never be guaranteed."

By the sounds of this he wasn't even on the same property. Unless Ceedub comes out with more specifics this is all we have.

I will ask you one more time hopefully I will get an answer:

Would you seriously go and ask somebody to move even though they were there first and had every right to be there?

You seem to be skirting this question so maybe we already have the answer

Bubba

[SBE2]

Originally Posted by russ

I know Vindal personally, one lodge is on the Ribstone Creek, one is on the Battle River and I think the other is on Sullivan Lake. The 1st 2 are within 25 miles of each other.


And I don't consider 2/3rds of the places you've listed as even being close to east central alberta. To me it's the Hwy 12 & 13 corridors stretching from Saskatchewan & ending between Viking & Camrose. Central Alberta has to exist somewhere and I certainly don't count Camrose, Vermillion, Vegreville or Lloyd as part of it. That's known as the Parkland IMHO.

That's why I asked, because there seems to be alot of differing opinions on what gets labeled as east central. And I also wanted clarrification as to what outfit or single lodge was running that size of an operation, but now I see there are more than one, and thank you for the clarrification. PS I am not even a local and live over and hour from Sullivan but was able to go find a shoot and get permission last week without issue, and did not see anyone else spotting, but it could have been an off day or whatever. Thanks again for the info....

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by bubbasno1

I guess we will never know who was setup first.

but here is the actual quote from Ceedub

"I was asked by an outfitter last fall to abandon my shoot on adjacent land to where they had permission as they had "paying customers that won't tolerate a lack of success", that's what wrong with the industry right there. They will go to great lengths and cross some ethical boundaries to make paying customers happy, in a sport where success should never be guaranteed."

By the sounds of this he wasn't even on the same property. Unless Ceedub comes out with more specifics this is all we have.

I will ask you one more time hopefully I will get an answer:

Would you seriously go and ask somebody to move even though they were there first and had every right to be there?

You seem to be skirting this question so maybe we already have the answer

Bubba

OK. I will bite.

No I wouldn't go ask... UNLESS I really Really needed to be there. Then I would ask. But it would probably be more along the lines of asking them to join us.

No harm in asking is there???


So you answer the question; if you were there first would you go ask?

Seriously thats one of the problems with these "Bad" story's. You only ever get one side of it. Not that the original poster was misleading in anyway. Its just tough when the whole story is not explained.

Jamie

[Okotokian]

I sense a new business opportunity. Go set up on land nearby before they get there. When they ask you to move, say "Sure! What they paying you? I'll take 20% of that to move"

Originally Posted by Jamie

OK. I will bite.

No I wouldn't go ask... UNLESS I really Really needed to be there. Then I would ask. But it would probably be more along the lines of asking them to join us.

No harm in asking is there???


So you answer the question; if you were there first would you go ask?

Seriously thats one of the problems with these "Bad" story's. You only ever get one side of it. Not that the original poster was misleading in anyway. Its just tough when the whole story is not explained.

Jamie

I cannot ever think of a reason why I would really really need to hunt a particular place. But maybe someday it will come up. I would absolutely never ask somebody to move or leave a hunting area. So is there harm in asking. I think so.

If I was there first would I go ask? It depends on the situation. I have had one and only on incident with an outfitter/Range manager and it all started out with me going to ask if his boy would like to hunt a deer that was on the property. I did not know he was the outfitter/Range manager for the land adjacent to where I was hunting. He promptly told me I was trespassing and I should leave. I then politely informed him that no I was not and pointed out the boundaries (no fences) to the property. Then the discussion turned to more people should shoot does as there were way to many in the area. I again politely thank him and went and shot the buck.

So yes I would given the right circumstances. For an adult probably not.

Bubba

[jaylow?]

my old man was driving down a range road that had crown land on both sides of the road in wmu 512 last year and a guide flagged him down and informed him that he couldnt set up in the area because their were clients in the area. needless to say the rest of the conversation didnt go so well. the old man isnt a big fan of butting heads so he backed off rather than have the guide ruin his hunt or vice versa.

in my opinion that shouldnt have even happened. if you own land and want to restrict who hunts on it fine , but there is already problems with access to private land to hunt on. dont try keeping people off public land as well because it effects your bottom line.

this in my opinion is a starting point for changes to be made.

[Vindalbakken]

No, it was not a group of outfitters. I looked back at some things to put a date on it and it was in 2001 when I talked/sat with this outfitter as he made the evening phone calls to the spotters to set things up for the next few days (make the call on this one for tomorrow, sit on this one for 3 days, watch the other one for 2 days, get that field sewed up etc.) Don't know what size his operation is today, but he is not one of the three russ has noted - so that would make 4 outfits.

[Albertabowhunter]

Originally Posted by trouty

how do these outfitters tie up all these properties? why are these landowners giving access only to them, are they being paid? Spend your time proving they are paying for access, time better spent then a petition which nobody will sign

I had a land owner tell me this year that he reserves his land for the outfitter in the area because he buys meat from him. That would be pretty close to being paid I would say.... Want proof? there it is. I'll direct you to the feel lot owner who said it if you wish.

I believe there is need for some change. Getting rid of the outfitters in not the answer. Maybe reducing they days they guide would be ok. give them Monday - Thurs, allow the rest of the day for provincial residence. or at least Canadians.

[Albertabowhunter]

Maybe another option is that outfitters need to start accomodating resident hunters too. If you have 4 paid hunters, allow a couple locals. Really, what can it hurt for a couple extra guys in a field. most guys have all their own gear, decoys and blinds. And whats nicer than a few extra guys to set up decoys. Nice way to make new friends, and maybe things would be a little nicer out there for all of us.

Trust me, I'm not so impressed with the guides for migratory. Ive lost alot of my shooting possibilites because of them. And No I cant get out every night to spot a field. I have a job and other priorities. Hunting is supposed to be enjoyable and a pasttime. not work. And its already expensive enough with fuel and gear. We all just need to start learning to accomidate each other, within limits of course.

let me throw this out there. If you had gotten a field with a thousand geese on it and you and a buddy are going to hunt it, if a guide came up and asked if he could join you, would you let his group? Would you, if offered, join in on a mornings hunt with guide, as long as you came early and help set up decoys, bring the proper gear such as layout blinds and decoys? I would if I knew I would get it in return. I've offered that to a guide recently, he said "no, his group was finicky". From my experiences, according to guides all their groups are finicky. We all need to work together and start making accomodations. We stop bickering too much amongst each other, or even the land owners are going to stop saying yes and restrict everyone.

As for the situation where the guide came and ask a hunter move off the adjacent land..... Not in this life would I,and I would laugh at him. If everything was legite he has no right to ask you to move. But, if you are setting up there to ruin his hunt, then thats harrassment and you could be charged for that.