Petition to Ban Waterfowl Outfitting in Alberta

[antlerguy]

ABH, I am sure that you as a reponsible outdoorsman reported this and showed the authorities to the feed lot. There are alot of folks on here that say they have proof of outfitters or other individuals paying for excluse rights. If you do please report it and take all needed actions (within the laws) to do your part. And remember if this is happening it is not only the individal paying for access that is at fault, but the landowner too. Now I am not saying this does or doesn't happen. All I'm saying is that if you have proof please do your part.

[Albertabowhunter]

No, actually I havent, and I guess maybe I should. Thank you for pointing that out I will try to do it tomorrow.

[Vindalbakken]

The most common form of "payment" I have heard of is to hire them as guides and scouts. You get paid for every hunt you "guide" or "scout" on your land. That was years back when I was still migratory hunting. It became much easier to upland bird hunt.

[SCO]

As I recall a few years ago anybody could guide non-resident aliens for waterfowl. There were people from all parts of north america doing this here. APOS had wanted to clean up the waterfowl outfitting industry here as there was a # of bad actors. This was 1 of APOS reason's/goals for forming / when formed. Whether you are a bird outfitter or big game outfitter it still portrays outfitting as 1 group. I think APOS has done a great job at cleaning up the big game outfitting industry in Alberta and wanted to do the same with waterfowl. Sure everything is not perfect and there is still work being done or needs to be done but it is a far cry from what it used to be. When they started implementing licenseing for outfitter waterfowl permits anybody could get one. All you had to do was prove that you were actually offering those services.If you didn't use it you lost it. I beleive it was a minimum of 3 hunters /yr/wmu that you hold a permit in. They set a limit on how many people could outfit in each wmu and set a date for when that would be reduced to 4 outfitters per wmu which is this december. This still does not effect residents or canadians on hunting here. And it limits only 4 outfitters /wmu for non-resident aliens. this leaves a lot of sq. km's in each wmu for residents and canadians to hunt or for you to take your friends/relatives from other parts of canada out for free or charge. I drive around alot within 30 mins to 1.5 hours from edmonton and see numerous fields that have geese sitting on them and think somebody should be hunting this spot. Get out and drive some roads. There is bird hunting oppurtunities in lots of areas. I find it easier to get big game hunting permission after you helped the farmer out with the birds are eating his crops. So many complain that outfitters are paying for access. If so where is the proof and do something about it. Send copies of proof to SRD and to APOS. Keep calling both for updates. APOS does not approve of paying for access and is # 11 in its code of ethics: A member shall also respect the activities and needs of the resident hunter by not initiating or soliciting for exclusive use of any wildlife resource or access. This is stamped on the back of every guides's license issued along with the rest of the codes.

[russ]

Originally Posted by SCO

They set a limit on how many people could outfit in each wmu and set a date for when that would be reduced to 4 outfitters per wmu which is this december. This still does not effect residents or canadians on hunting here. And it limits only 4 outfitters /wmu for non-resident aliens.

Does this also set out limits for the number of guides employed and the number of clients?

[Goose Gunner]

I don’t know about your petition ABDUKNUT gaining anything but flack but I 100% agree that waterfowl guiding needs a overhaul. A influential guide in the area I hunt feeds, houses and keeps every last cent his clientele "bring to Alberta’s economy". As far as APOS, I think they have or are trying to limiting the number of guides per WMU but not the number of hunters per guide. APOS's "governing body" is removing competition for themselves, convenient. Last thought,change the waterfowl season to mimic the sheep season, first week open only to residents. I love to hunt but love to mess up outfitters hunts a little bit more. See you out there guides! Good luck ABDUKNUT

[stand junkie]

Well good luck with this one don't get me wrong I love huntng birds and get p----- every time u try to get a hunt and the outfiter has the land tied up . But it just so happens that the president of apos has a bird giuding service in stettler and he ties up all the land and maybe does some shady stuff (just maybe)
My 2 cents

[SCO]

Originally Posted by russ

Does this also set out limits for the number of guides employed and the number of clients?

No it does not. You also have to remember that this only limits the amount of non-canadian guided trips. There is a lot of resident and canadian resident guiding as well going on here whether it is for free or somebody paying that ties up land as well. If srd was to set a limit on # of clients it would probably restrict everyones # of people being taken out in a season / week or day.

[ALGOMIAN]

I dont believe banning any hunting in this country will do anything BUT HARM to ALL of us outdoorsmen. There is so much anti hunting sentiment already in this country, we all need to work together here. We as hunters, are outnumbered 1000:1 (if we are lucky!).

If things are not working, then we need to work at a compromise/changes or as previously suggested, enforcing the laws that are already in place.

Living in the city (calgary) but being an avid hunter I really see how many anti-hunters there are, especially in the younger generations. We need to work at increasing the visibility and numbers of hunters... whether it be residents or non-residents. These generations are growing up not knowing ANYONE that hunts whether for food, or sport. What will there answer be if in the future they are asked if they think hunting (for anyone) should continue??

Also, especially in these economic times, the more money hunting brings in (whether in the form of licenses directly to government, or in outfitting/lodging/ammunition sales etc.) the less likely any government is to ban it. outside money (US)... even better! Many of you may think hunting will never be banned, but I myself am not so sure... I have seen the the spring bear hunt disapear in Ontario as a result of the big city - anti hunters controlling the entire province.

my suggestion for changes: increase fees charged to outfitters/alien hunters and dump 100% of this money into conservation and awareness campaings.

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by ALGOMIAN

I dont believe banning any hunting in this country will do anything BUT HARM to ALL of us outdoorsmen. There is so much anti hunting sentiment already in this country, we all need to work together here. We as hunters, are outnumbered 1000:1 (if we are lucky!).

Well, I have a few doubts with your arguments. First of all, anti-hunters don't outnumber hunters 1000 to 1, not even close. Hunters, as well as anti-hunters are both minorities in a much larger majority of people who really don't care one way or another about hunting, and have not even formed an opinion as to which side they would support. This is precisely why we as hunters must strive to uphold our image as law abiding, humane, and prudent sportsmen- The anti-hunting crowd already hates us and is too intolerant to sway, so maintaining our integrity with the majority is crucial to our being.

Secondly, I think your synopsis of the Ontario Spring bear hunt cancellation is an oversimplification of what actually happened. Although Spring bear hunting was banned (notably, a hunt that was more valued by Outfitters catering to non-resident aliens, than actual Ontario resident hunters) it was largely regarded as a political move that eased the passing of the Heritage Hunting and Fishing Act. Are you familiar with this act?

Preamble

Recreational hunting and fishing have played important roles in shaping Ontario’s social, cultural and economic heritage. Recreational hunters and anglers have made important contributions to the understanding, conservation, restoration and management of Ontario’s fish and wildlife resources. The best traditions of recreational hunting and fishing should be valued by future generations.

Therefore, Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Ontario, enacts as follows:

Right to hunt and fish

1. (1) A person has a right to hunt and fish in accordance with the law. 2002, c. 10, s. 1 (1).

[wbl170]

I haven't bird hunted for a few years now but miss it much! (bowhunting too much) Usually run into the outfitters while i'm big game hunting either Edm bow zone or out Russ's way. Lots of story's, both personal and through friends. The Industry is Big Buisness ! As a group they are organized and with that carries a big voice. (good government connections???) Can we help change things for the better?

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by SCO

So many complain that outfitters are paying for access. If so where is the proof and do something about it. Send copies of proof to SRD and to APOS. Keep calling both for updates. APOS does not approve of paying for access

APOS has a history of supporting criminals within the Organization, so what would be the point of alerting them?

[choclab]

so a landowner sells his product to an outfitter. that same landowner allows the outfitter to hunt on his land, that is illegal. not!
He owns the land and can allow who he wants. don't get me wrong if he was paying for access he should be busted, but this sounds like a case of the guy buying meat for camp, not a false purchase for access.
come on people lots of hunts out there, learn how to not burn them up in one shoot and there would be even more.

now restrict non residents and non resident aliens from just coming up here and hunting without an outfitter and this would help the residents out a bunch. I actually see more us plates scouting than locals!

Didn't the starter of this thread say he guides non residents for free, and then complains about outfitters putting pressure on the birds and its not fair to the residents. kind of a double standard I think.

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by choclab

so a landowner sells his product to an outfitter. that same landowner allows the outfitter to hunt on his land, that is illegal. not!

Depends... if he's paying $500 for a box of hotdogs, then yes that could be illegal...

[shortaction]

Secondly, I think your synopsis of the Ontario Spring bear hunt cancellation is an oversimplification of what actually happened. Although Spring bear hunting was banned (notably, a hunt that was more valued by Outfitters catering to non-resident aliens, than actual Ontario resident hunters) it was largely regarded as a political move that eased the passing of the Heritage Hunting and Fishing Act. Are you familiar with this act?

Actually you are wrong. The spring hunt was valued by almost 100% of the bear hunters in Ontario and I could count on 1 hand out of the 100's of hunters I know who didn't like the spring bear hunt! I would guess that only 20% of the hunters that used to bear hunt do so now, as they prefer to hunt in the Spring.

What was wrong with the Outfitters making a living and adding to our economy? I can't think of 1 hunter that said "serves them outfitters right" they where all upset that people who promoted hunting where being forced out of business for no good reason! The ones who survived now offer ECO Tours so our fellow hunters have been replaced with non hunters and I have a hard time looking on that as a positive!

Yes it was a political move to appease the big city of TORONTO so the anti's won this one!

Preamble

Recreational hunting and fishing have played important roles in shaping Ontario’s social, cultural and economic heritage. Recreational hunters and anglers have made important contributions to the understanding, conservation, restoration and management of Ontario’s fish and wildlife resources. The best traditions of recreational hunting and fishing should be valued by future generations.

Therefore, Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Ontario, enacts as follows:

Right to hunt and fish

1. (1) A person has a right to hunt and fish in accordance with the law. 2002, c. 10, s. 1 (1).[/QUOTE]



So I guess it was ok to give up a legal hunt so we could legally hunt?

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by shortaction

Yes it was a political move to appease the big city of TORONTO so the anti's won this one!

You're correct. It's a shame but yes this did win that one, no-thanks to a very well orchestrated smear campaign funded by a local megabucks Antihunting extremist named Robert Schad.

[ALGOMIAN]

I find it amazing you quote me at the start and then immediately after twist my words so that you have a counter to what I haven’t said. I did not state that anti-hunters out-number hunters 1000:1, I said “we as hunters are outnumbered 1000:1.” Meaning, there are more non-hunters (whether “anti” or not) than hunters. Whether this number is 1000:1, 100:1 or 10 000:1 I don’t know and really it doesn’t matter. The fact is that we are outnumbered and by ALOT!

As for most non-hunters being indifferent to hunting. I would disagree with that. But even if this is true for the older generations (baby boomers), who grew up when a much larger percentage of the population lived in rural areas and actually did hunt, but look at the <25 population... I’ll bet the vast majority of this generation not only believes you should not hunt, but that you should not even be allowed to own a firearm! Guess who’s going to be controlling the vote in the future?

The spring bear hunt:
Your right, I am simplifying it, because when it comes down to it, that is what matters, the hunt was BANNED!! Out of the blue, with no scientific baking, no logical reason, we lost a piece of our hunting "rights" (which I will get to in a minute). As for it affecting mainly outfitters...? what would make you think this I wonder...? Anyways, Yes it did affect outfitters, who were making a very modest living and helping to keep the bear population under control, while bringing hundreds of thousands of dollars into our economy. I know this because I was one of them. But you know what? My brother, father and I were the only outfitters out of 100+ people lined up at our MP's office demanding answers! The rest... ordinary resident hunters who enjoyed the spring bear hunt and who were stunned at how the government had pulled the proverbial bear rug right out from under our feet (sorry had to do it).

Heritage Hunting and Fishing Act: If you are somehow implying that we lost the bear hunt, but gained (and I have some questions about your connection between the two) "the right to hunt in accordance with the law". Let me ask you this; is any hunting "in accordance with the law" if there are no legal seasons left to hunt in?

What's next to come? My bet is on the moose hunt... due to the dwindling moose populations caused in large part to a bear population which is now sky-rocketing out of control. We all better hope this kind of irrational, impulse decision making doesn’t make it this far west. Even if it does, I definitely don’t think the hunting community needs to lead this push.

Your intentions and frustrations may be genuine, and I do think there are a lot of good recommendations coming up on here. I just really believe you should go forward cautiously and look beyond the surface of what you are asking for. Maybe there is a moderate solution.

[Johnny]

ABDUKNUT - Here is a quote for you to consider. The more you resist, the more it will persist. You are going about this the wrong way. You should have started the thread off by simply stating, "collectively, what suggestions can we put forward to bring about positive change for the mutual benefit of both the individual hunters as well as the outfitting industry. The outfitting industry will not be disappearing any time soon and you will never get me signing a petition against such. You previously mentioned there is a local duck hunting club in your area.....if you can't beat them, join them....you never know, you might actually make some new friends and have some fun. Quite often, these local clubs have special hunting events for youth and people with disabilities. They also tend to participate actively in wildlife rehabilitation projects.

When I was younger, I actually liked it when there were lots of hunters in the area as this would push the birds around and you didn't even have to set up in a field where there were birds the previous evening.

Happy Hunting

[Scratch]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Why would we want to cut off part of the hunting fraternity? Regulate them sure, but.... WHen the real fight starts to defend hunting in Alberta, I want as many allies as possible.

x2

Suggest changes perhaps to mitigate some of the really sore points, but these outfitters are just as important if not more so when it comes to supporting our right and privilege to hunt.

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by Scratch

Suggest changes perhaps to mitigate some of the really sore points, but these outfitters are just as important if not more so when it comes to supporting our right and privilege to hunt.

I did suggest changes... I suggested that we end waterfowl outfitting.

"Outfitters important to supporting our hunting rights"??? Don't kid yourselves, they'd like to see us gone just as bad as I'd like to see them gone.