Wolves moved in to my favorite spot. No deer sign. =(

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say? If there was a complete absence of whitetails how can their numbers return? Is there still a complete absence of whitetail?

You say the wolves are still there and now there’s no coyotes but tons of grouse, are you suggesting the wolves are living off of coyotes?

The Whitetails completely disappeared but returned. My theory(and it is just that) is the Whitetails have become more nomadic and simply bug out for a while. They avoid the wolves as a group by hiding out in thick spruce and dead falls where the long distance hounding of the pack is less effective.

Wolves don't like coyotes and coyotes avoid them. They at least change their behavior and keep a very low profile. It is my understanding that wolves kill coyotes at any opportunity but I don't know if they eat them. I am guessing not as other scavengers even seem to avoid them.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

A few years back trapper found where large pack of wolves killed 15 deer in one night. They did not eat any of them just went on a killing spree!

And not to be argumentative but what actually happened?

I found 11 dead deer in a very small area after the severe winter a few years back. Obviously they were at least feed on by wolves but you could tell most of the feeding was scavengers as the bodies lay in one spot not spread around as you would expect from a pack. Did they stumble upon a herd of dead and dying deer and kill the group? I can't see a herd being taken down at once in such a small area unless they were in very bad shape and doomed anyway. They would at least be spread out over hundreds of yards if healthy but I can't imagine it going down that way.

[Big Lou]

Figured I’d share pics of the woes my friend is experiencing with wolves.


Further compounded by this fellow.


Said he saw no deer last night back where they have been most of the summer and fall so far. When walking out he said there was 30 some odd deer up by the barn of the landowner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by MK2750

The Whitetails completely disappeared but returned. My theory(and it is just that) is the Whitetails have become more nomadic and simply bug out for a while. They avoid the wolves as a group by hiding out in thick spruce and dead falls where the long distance hounding of the pack is less effective.

Wolves don't like coyotes and coyotes avoid them. They at least change their behavior and keep a very low profile. It is my understanding that wolves kill coyotes at any opportunity but I don't know if they eat them. I am guessing not as other scavengers even seem to avoid them.

Well the wolves aren’t eating nuts and berries.

Their main diet is ungulates. I know first hand what happens when wolves move in. I’m a whitetail, muley, and moose guide and I have a few stands set up where the wolves moved in. I’ve been guiding in this particular area for almost 20yrs. I have one particular stand that was in a honey hole, every year producing whitetail over 160”, I even shot a couple there. The minute the wolf pack moved in the area was a ghost town. Where we were seen 20-30 deer a day we were only seeing 2-3 deer a day. We did see about the same amount of elk roam through there along with the odd moose. The biggest change we noticed was the number of whitetail by far, and the wolf sign and sightings were up. We were seeing 2 or three packs in a day some days. This went on for about 3 years and literally decimated the whitetail population while elk and moose numbers continued to rise. This happened around 2008-2011, to this day if I go into my stand that’s closest to the Athabasca river I’m lucky to see 6-8 whitetails in a day where I used to see 20-30. It is getting better and there are way less wolves. Coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt it.

I’ve watched wolves chasing down whitetails twice and once watched a bear chasing a cow and calf moose. While out shed hunting I found several whitetail carcasses, I can’t say how they died but I don’t think it was all winterkill.

I think you might be mistaken, or at least not giving wolves enough credit as ungulate eradicators. What the op is seeing is a textbook case of what happens when a Wolfpack moves in. Unfortunately, at least in my expirience it takes a long time for the deer population to rebound.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Big Lou

Figured I’d share pics of the woes my friend is experiencing with wolves.


Further compounded by this fellow.


Said he saw no deer last night back where they have been most of the summer and fall so far. When walking out he said there was 30 some odd deer up by the barn of the landowner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow!

There is a great opportunity for some predator hunting there, not a chance I’d set up for whitetail though.

[NCC]

Originally Posted by MK2750

This is my experience as well. Wolves move through, maybe grab a deer or two and deer disappear. I am not saying they do not eat them, I am saying they are not their target species and that they don't eat up all the deer and move on.

Once deer know that wolves are in the area, IMO wolves would starve to death targeting them.

When I was a kid there was no coyotes in the province I grew up in. When the coyotes arrived on the scene, the deer population dropped like a stone. The majority of these were determined to be crossed with wolves on their travels through Ontario and Quebec. The Whitetails adapted and the numbers recovered.

A good sized doe would feed maybe 2 or 3 wolves, certainly not a pack. A decent sized pack would have to be killing 2 or 3 deer a night. That would be a tough way to make a living.

What evidence is your opinion based on? A doe is still 150lbs, which would be 15lbs for each member of a pack of ten. If my 130lb dog ate 15lbs, she wouldn't need to eat again for 2 days. I think wolves kill plenty of deer and can live off of them.

I also agree with Bushrat that the deer have evolved to avoid lease roads in the winter.

Trappers and hunters can help reduce wolf populations. I shot 6 out of a pack and the pack disappeared for a few years. My neighbor trapped about ten out of a different pack the next year and we haven't seen a pack stick around since then (going on ten years now). There is a noticeable increase in deer, elk, and moose despite some tough winters since then.

That said, I'm all for a government program that would severely knock down the wolf population. With proper incentives, I think trappers could get there but poisoning would be cheaper.

[Big Lou]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Wow!

There is a great opportunity for some predator hunting there, not a chance I’d set up for whitetail though.

Bang on with how I look at it too Kurt. The morning after he got the wolf pics he was out and let rip with an elk bugle. Less than a minute later he shot a wolf sneaking in on his position. I’d be switching areas entirely if I wanted to hunt deer or devoting all my efforts to wiping them out now.

I hunted the Keg River area a bit in 2007 if memory serves. It was prior to an elk season opening there as there were some smoker bulls sitting around. Piles of deer in the farmland there but pretty much everything on the fringe were up by peoples houses. One guy who let me on his acres said I wouldn’t find any deer in the bush and he was right. Deer traffic petered out less than a half mile into the timber and the cutlines were literally highways of wolf tracks. Nearly every coyote track a guy cut had wolf prints veering off and following. Pretty sure he said he trapped right around 30 the year before.

[wildbill]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

A few years back trapper found where large pack of wolves killed 15 deer in one night. They did not eat any of them just went on a killing spree!

Wow, that's quite the tale!!!

[onetreeman]

Well I have not given up on this area yet. My hope is that when the snow starts flying and sticking around on the ground it will definitely be an opportunity to find out how the deer may have modified their movement patterns.

It is great to get different opinions and insight from others!

There are a bunch of areas of interest that I will be checking out away from typical travel routes. I guess its an opportunity to see places that I have not explored before.

[The Spruce]

Originally Posted by Bushleague

IMO the effort of ranchers, and even trappers, generally only teaches wolves to avoid certain areas. It has very little effect on the overall wolf population, that is governed by game numbers. The wolf numbers in my area have come down over the last few years, but I think that has more to do with the hard winters thinning the game numbers than anything else.

I disagree. A Trapper that knows what He is doing can kill a pack like this the first time they pass through. 8-10 of them at once. Shooting them just makes them more weary and nocturnal. Trapping works 24/7. You can quickly remove packs by trapping. Sounds like a younger likely uneducated pack. Small bait set up to look like a rival kill with some urine....50 snares, no more wolves.

Spruce

[raw outdoors]

I spent the last 7 days in zone 406 archery moose hunting and was shocked at all the wolf tracks and scat every trail showed sighn. For the most part it has only been wet around hear the last couple weeks so tracks prior to that wouldn’t have shown up. Numerous times while cow calling moose the wolf’s would howl near me. First time in five moose seasons out there I have seen this kind of wolf activity. I have even got picture of the pack chasing a moose past my camera.

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by onetreeman

Well I have not given up on this area yet. My hope is that when the snow starts flying and sticking around on the ground it will definitely be an opportunity to find out how the deer may have modified their movement patterns.

It is great to get different opinions and insight from others!

There are a bunch of areas of interest that I will be checking out away from typical travel routes. I guess its an opportunity to see places that I have not explored before.

A lot of where and what I hunt comes from exploring on snowshoes in the winter. When you aren't worried about stealth you can really cover ground, offtrail, on snowhoes better than any other method I've found. They are like 4x4 for your feet. Exploring on snowshoes works until about mid January, at that point you can get a lay of the land but the deer habit is very different and the tracks might mean very little to the hunter.

I generally start verifying that things haven't changed from about mid October to the first week of November, especially if I can get some early snow. I'm not moving as fast as I do on snowshoes, but still I cover quite a bit of ground. I've got my gun but really I'm looking more for sign than I am for animals. Once I've decided on about 3-4 areas that I feel are my best options, I rotate through them for the rest of the season, still hunting very carefully, mostly just killing time on the game trails and waiting for a good buck to make a mistake.

[Sooner]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

In my experience once the wolves move in they stay until there’s nothing left for them to eat. After the pack moves out it can take years for the ungulates to move back in.

In my specific area it took nearly 10yrs for the deer population to rebound to about 50-60% of its pre-wolf level. A disclaimer to note is that there was also a couple cougars come through as well as a couple tough winters in those 10yrs, however the surrounding areas have had a constant higher percentage of deer. Although the weather killed off a few, it’s obvious the “lions share” went to the wolves.

Same in my go to northern zone. Bad deep snow winters hit when the packs were at their height. They cleaned out the moose & deer. I still sled through a couple times every winter, put on 100 k each trip zipping around. Haven't seen a moose in a couple years, track sign minimal, deer sign getting a bit better. It's been 5 years since I pulled a moose tag there. About the same since I seen more than 10 deer in a season. I used to pass up 10 dink bucks a year & seen countless does & fawns and could wait for a nicer buck.


It's been 5 years and the return to what it was is still a long way off. It's like a ghost zone now with animals and hunters. Kinda sad to see such a great deer zone & ok Moose zone( FN reserve near by so they hammer them all year) go down to nada. Even the outfitter scaled back and he had stands everywhere at one time.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Well the wolves aren’t eating nuts and berries.

Their main diet is ungulates. I know first hand what happens when wolves move in. I’m a whitetail, muley, and moose guide and I have a few stands set up where the wolves moved in. I’ve been guiding in this particular area for almost 20yrs. I have one particular stand that was in a honey hole, every year producing whitetail over 160”, I even shot a couple there. The minute the wolf pack moved in the area was a ghost town. Where we were seen 20-30 deer a day we were only seeing 2-3 deer a day. We did see about the same amount of elk roam through there along with the odd moose. The biggest change we noticed was the number of whitetail by far, and the wolf sign and sightings were up. We were seeing 2 or three packs in a day some days. This went on for about 3 years and literally decimated the whitetail population while elk and moose numbers continued to rise. This happened around 2008-2011, to this day if I go into my stand that’s closest to the Athabasca river I’m lucky to see 6-8 whitetails in a day where I used to see 20-30. It is getting better and there are way less wolves. Coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt it.

I’ve watched wolves chasing down whitetails twice and once watched a bear chasing a cow and calf moose. While out shed hunting I found several whitetail carcasses, I can’t say how they died but I don’t think it was all winterkill.

I think you might be mistaken, or at least not giving wolves enough credit as ungulate eradicators. What the op is seeing is a textbook case of what happens when a Wolfpack moves in. Unfortunately, at least in my expirience it takes a long time for the deer population to rebound.

I hunt crown land mostly on the edge of farm country. I know they eat deer but I think they wander the edges hoping to find farmland moose more than deer. I also believe that the Whitetails are bugging out not getting eaten up by wolves. A few get eaten and the rest bugger off. Obviously in the big bush they would have no farm land to run to.

One guy west of Rimbey showed me some pics of a couple of Whitetails that certainly looked like the same deer. One buck in particular was a very unique individual that he claimed he had pictures of on 3 different quarters several miles apart.

Like I said, I don't claim to be an expert and can only wonder what is fact and what is theory. My theory may be different than yours but behaviors can be very different in different areas, different herds or different packs.

[Badone20]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

A few years back trapper found where large pack of wolves killed 15 deer in one night. They did not eat any of them just went on a killing spree!

I have heard this before, they are killing machines and will kill for the sake of killing, whether they eat that prey or not.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by NCC

What evidence is your opinion based on? A doe is still 150lbs, which would be 15lbs for each member of a pack of ten. If my 130lb dog ate 15lbs, she wouldn't need to eat again for 2 days. I think wolves kill plenty of deer and can live off of them.

I also agree with Bushrat that the deer have evolved to avoid lease roads in the winter.

Trappers and hunters can help reduce wolf populations. I shot 6 out of a pack and the pack disappeared for a few years. My neighbor trapped about ten out of a different pack the next year and we haven't seen a pack stick around since then (going on ten years now). There is a noticeable increase in deer, elk, and moose despite some tough winters since then.

That said, I'm all for a government program that would severely knock down the wolf population. With proper incentives, I think trappers could get there but poisoning would be cheaper.

If you think I am some kind of a wolf lover, you are very wrong. The packs west of Rocky are more than 10 individuals and IMO they would prefer larger game.

I have weighed a bunch of deer and it would take an enormous doe to provide 150 pounds of protein. A really big doe is well under 150 dressed and the bones, hair and skin are not eaten. Even the contents of the head are generally left. The average doe would provide for 2 or 3 wolves tops considering a healthy northern wolf needs 20 plus pounds on average a day.

[Badone20]

All things considered, wolves are apex predators and they do what they always do best, survive.

Their survival depends mainly on prey. So the more predators there are the more game it takes to feed them. They move in, do there their thing, and move on.

Problem is there is a marked increase in their member numbers doing the same thing.

[Barry D]

I go out every Christmas and sled all the lakes and sloughs up at my cabin and most of the wolf kills are deer they push on to the ice. Of all the kills, about 80% are 2 1/2 or older bucks, and the other 20% are fawns. Yep, those wolves get the boys after they are wore out. After Jan 15th hardly any kills on the ice anymore. Just the week and dump get taken, but some times that's a big number.

We are just learning about all the interactions between different spices, but here are some general conclusions for thought.

Lots of wolves = less ungulates, (the moose numbers are way down in wolf country across the north), less bears (they dig them out in winter for a easy kill), less coyotes (they hate those smaller competitors). Less beavers (that is a main source of food for their pups). Have you all noticed the number of dried up beaver ponds in heavy wolf country?
What is the impacts of all this? Time will tell, but it will be very interesting to observe.

In nature there is neither right or wrong, only consequences.

[warriorboy10]

Originally Posted by MK2750

If you think I am some kind of a wolf lover, you are very wrong. The packs west of Rocky are more than 10 individuals and IMO they would prefer larger game.

I have weighed a bunch of deer and it would take an enormous doe to provide 150 pounds of protein. A really big doe is well under 150 dressed and the bones, hair and skin are not eaten. Even the contents of the head are generally left. The average doe would provide for 2 or 3 wolves tops considering a healthy northern wolf needs 20 plus pounds on average a day.

Wolves wiped out the deer in the area I used to see several WT a day. For the last 6-8 years there has been virtually zero WT in the area. Have seen several WT kills and what the wolves do to the deer but still see the moose around. They will kill what they need. If a wolf needs 20 lbs day and a doe has 40-60 lbs meat on it then the wolves will kill what they need and next thing you know all the deer are gone. Simple as that! I have shot two wolves in there and completely convinced with what others are saying.
To be blunt I think your thought of the wolves, if having a choice would go after a moose is out to lunch as many of us have experienced in the areas hunted. Deer are way easier to kill than a moose so why would the wolves waste so much energy on a big ol moose when they can whack as many deer as they want day after day!
Not scientific but accurate observations from guys that frequent the areas! Maybe not the case in the area you hunt but I doubt it..

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by warriorboy10

Wolves wiped out the deer in the area I used to see several WT a day. For the last 6-8 years there has been virtually zero WT in the area. Have seen several WT kills and what the wolves do to the deer but still see the moose around. They will kill what they need. If a wolf needs 20 lbs day and a doe has 40-60 lbs meat on it then the wolves will kill what they need and next thing you know all the deer are gone. Simple as that! I have shot two wolves in there and completely convinced with what others are saying.
To be blunt I think your thought of the wolves, if having a choice would go after a moose is out to lunch as many of us have experienced in the areas hunted. Deer are way easier to kill than a moose so why would the wolves waste so much energy on a big ol moose when they can whack as many deer as they want day after day!
Not scientific but accurate observations from guys that frequent the areas! Maybe not the case in the area you hunt but I doubt it..

You have your theory, I have mine. I don't doubt that every area is different in some ways but especially where the ungulates have the option to move into farm country where the wolves can't follow. Whitetails are by far the most adaptable member of the deer family.

When people inquire about elk and moose west of RMH both north and south the answers are generally the same; good luck but you will more likely see a bear or wolves. I know there are still some deer there in well populated pockets. There is lots of animals east of 22 all along that corridor but you have to travel east a bit in some areas to hit actual farm land.

What will be very interesting is the impact of reducing the supplementary tags. IMO the Whitetail numbers will take right off in spite of the wolves, but time will certainly tell. I don't know (nor does anyone else) exactly how many deer the wolves are taking but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that literally truck loads of does and fawns are taken from our area every year.

[NCC]

Originally Posted by MK2750

If you think I am some kind of a wolf lover, you are very wrong. The packs west of Rocky are more than 10 individuals and IMO they would prefer larger game.

I have weighed a bunch of deer and it would take an enormous doe to provide 150 pounds of protein. A really big doe is well under 150 dressed and the bones, hair and skin are not eaten. Even the contents of the head are generally left. The average doe would provide for 2 or 3 wolves tops considering a healthy northern wolf needs 20 plus pounds on average a day.

This isn't a personal attack against you, I am just wondering where you're getting your information. The wolf killed deer that I have encountered usually have part of the skull, spine, feet, shoulder blades and pelvis left. Everything else is gone. My statement was based on a doe weighing 150 lbs on the hoof and the wolves eating most of it. I also disagree that wolves need to eat that much every day. Wolves may prefer moose, but they kill everything that they can catch. If they target my 80 lb calves, I'm sure they also target deer. One well respected trapper I know claims that beaver pose a large portion of many wolf diets.

In his book "Wolves of Alaska", Jim Reardon discusses cases where the wolves have killed a dozen or more Stone sheep and caribou during one event. Wolves got into my tame sheep one night and I had one sheep and about ten piles of wool left the next morning.

[1899b]

My best years of whitetail hunting in my areas were when we were physically seeing lots of wolves and seeing lots of wolf sign. They coexisted quite nicely. If you don’t see predatory sign it’s because there is nothing keeping them there...

[1899b]

This one was killed 500 yards from this wolf kill site. The area has held both predators and ungulates for years. Some years there are less deer than others but I also blame the suplemental tag fiasco and not just the wolves.

[sdb8440]

Originally Posted by MK2750

If you think I am some kind of a wolf lover, you are very wrong. The packs west of Rocky are more than 10 individuals and IMO they would prefer larger game.

I have weighed a bunch of deer and it would take an enormous doe to provide 150 pounds of protein. A really big doe is well under 150 dressed and the bones, hair and skin are not eaten. Even the contents of the head are generally left. The average doe would provide for 2 or 3 wolves tops considering a healthy northern wolf needs 20 plus pounds on average a day.

You're off base on the amount of meat needed daily, google is your friend.

"Gray wolves can survive on about 2 1/2 pounds of food per wolf per day, but they require about 7 pounds per wolf per day to reproduce successfully."

https://www.wolf.org/wolf-info/basic...o/wolf-faqs/#s

"Wolves often rely on food they have cached after a successful hunt in order to see them through lean times."

Which leads credence t o the idea of them being opportunistic killers, then coming back later to eat.

[st99]

Originally Posted by MK2750

If you think I am some kind of a wolf lover, you are very wrong. The packs west of Rocky are more than 10 individuals and IMO they would prefer larger game.

I have weighed a bunch of deer and it would take an enormous doe to provide 150 pounds of protein. A really big doe is well under 150 dressed and the bones, hair and skin are not eaten. Even the contents of the head are generally left. The average doe would provide for 2 or 3 wolves tops considering a healthy northern wolf needs 20 plus pounds on average a day.

All canines will eat organs, hide and bones, maybe not from every kill, but they do. So a 150 lbs. deer can provide 150 lbs. of food.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by sdb8440

You're off base on the amount of meat needed daily, google is your friend.

"Gray wolves can survive on about 2 1/2 pounds of food per wolf per day, but they require about 7 pounds per wolf per day to reproduce successfully."

https://www.wolf.org/wolf-info/basic...o/wolf-faqs/#s

"Wolves often rely on food they have cached after a successful hunt in order to see them through lean times."

Which leads credence t o the idea of them being opportunistic killers, then coming back later to eat.

Our wolves are the biggest subspecies but 10 pounds a day and 20-25 pounds a kill would probably be more accurate. The eastern wolves are not much bigger than a coyote.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by st99

All canines will eat organs, hide and bones, maybe not from every kill, but they do. So a 150 lbs. deer can provide 150 lbs. of food.

Pretty hard to argue with logic like that.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by MK2750

I don't doubt that every area is different in some ways but especially where the ungulates have the option to move into farm country where the wolves can't follow. .

Most ungulates don't move far, they don't get up and move 20 miles into farmland when wolves move into their territory, they move a mile maybe maybe five but they don't leave the foothills and move 50 miles to east of highway 22. I don't mean any disrespect and I don't know where you live or hunt but if you believe wolves aren't in the farmland you are dead wrong. They are in farmland, have been there for decades. When you find packs of wolves near Breton, Alsike, Tomahawk, Evansburg, Wabamun, Rimby, Seba Beach, Drayton, Buck creek, Buck lake, Violet Grove, Alder Flats, etc, etc you can't tell me they can't/wont go into farmland. These are areas where I have hunted and travelled, this is farmland and know and every local who lives in these places know wolves are present. They are there and in ever increasing numbers..

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Most ungulates don't move far, they don't get up and move 20 miles into farmland when wolves move into their territory, they move a mile maybe maybe five but they don't leave the foothills and move 50 miles to east of highway 22. I don't mean any disrespect and I don't know where you live or hunt but if you believe wolves aren't in the farmland you are dead wrong. They are in farmland, have been there for decades. When you find packs of wolves near Breton, Alsike, Tomahawk, Evansburg, Wabamun, Rimby, Seba Beach, Drayton, Buck creek, Buck lake, Violet Grove, Alder Flats, etc, etc you can't tell me they can't/wont go into farmland. These are areas where I have hunted and travelled, this is farmland and know and every local who lives in these places know wolves are present. They are there and in ever increasing numbers..

Yeah, I don't wander out west of 22 much anymore except for fly fishing and grouse. The wolves do the dine and dash on the east side here but once you venture north by Rimbey they get pretty close to town. I don't think the deer west of RMH come in but the Elk certainly do. I know that deer are bugging out and abandoning areas to move east a few miles until the packs move on.

I have about 10 good spots between Rimbey and Caroline. There have been days when a person doesn't cut a track where there was plenty just last weekend. Go back in another week and there is tracks. In years past there was deer at all of my stands any day you wanted to go.

IMO the deer have become more nomadic to avoid being patterned by hunters and wolves. And like I mentioned earlier, several people with lots of cameras out share this theory. No deer for two weeks, lots for a day or two and then gone again.

I think a break from the supplemental tags will tell a lot. If the deer numbers take off in spite of all the wolves I will stand by my theory. If they drop or stay at current levels I will stand corrected.

[Taiga]

Look at the muscle on this guy.