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10-11-2020, 09:56 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 936
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Latitude separation for Shiras Moose vs Canada Moose
I am sure someone knows this by heart!
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10-12-2020, 12:42 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
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10-12-2020, 10:11 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,927
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In real world there is no line but a grey area where both subspecies mix. There are Canada moose on the Shiras side and vice versa. I think the "Shiras" sub species for moose was invented because lower 48 US moose would rarely if ever make the records book without a separate category. Surprised that U.S, Midwest and New England moose haven't also got a separate category. The Alaska/Canada subspecies moose category is another that has a huge grey area, yet they draw a line. One would have to do a DNA test to find a difference and in the grey areas the DNA could vary anywhere from one subspecies to the other and most moose closest to the "line" would be a mixture between the two. Not like there is a moose proof fence dividing the three subspecies.
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10-12-2020, 10:32 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,279
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X2 on the record book nonsense. The subspecies and ranges were invented so when someone shoots a two and a half year old bull, they can say it is a trophy shiras.
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10-12-2020, 10:41 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raised by wolves
X2 on the record book nonsense. The subspecies and ranges were invented so when someone shoots a two and a half year old bull, they can say it is a trophy shiras.
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Basically, Just like Kodiak and Grizzly, a Boone and Crocket rule thing. One side of the ridge it's a Grizzly, the other it's a Kodiak. Of course, we have our own version, the giant Swan Hills sub species popularized by Al Oeming and since discredited.
Grizz
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"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
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10-12-2020, 10:49 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
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There is definitely a difference is size between the 3 subspecies
Obviously there is no fence that stops them from crossing these imaginary line
Those southern Moose are substantially smaller than a Canadian moose say from north Alberta
But then again, the body size of a moose from wainwright is substantially smaller than a moose from northern Alberta
And a moose from northern Alberta looks like a calf to a moose from the yukon
It’s no different than brown bears and grizzly bears
Genetically they are the same
Yet bears from the peninsula or kodiak make a mature interior grizzly look Like a cub
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10-12-2020, 11:26 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
Posts: 1,704
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Kodiak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams
Basically, Just like Kodiak and Grizzly, a Boone and Crocket rule thing. One side of the ridge it's a Grizzly, the other it's a Kodiak. Of course, we have our own version, the giant Swan Hills sub species popularized by Al Oeming and since discredited.
Grizz
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There is no Kodiak bear category in B&C or P&Y.
Just Brown, Grizzly and Polar
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10-12-2020, 11:28 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl
There is no Kodiak bear category in B&C or P&Y.
Just Brown, Grizzly and Polar
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And black
Don’t forget about them
Their lives matter too
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10-12-2020, 11:36 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,271
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I always thought a Alaska Brown bear was just a grizz that ate too many salmon.
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10-12-2020, 11:39 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf
I always thought a Alaska Brown bear was just a grizz that ate too many salmon.
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Let's not forget the Siberian version, all the same species. Diet plays a large part in differences as does climate.
Grizz
__________________
"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
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10-12-2020, 01:43 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
Posts: 1,704
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Lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
And black
Don’t forget about them
Their lives matter too
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I see what ya did there! Nice
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10-12-2020, 01:44 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
Posts: 1,704
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Yup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf
I always thought a Alaska Brown bear was just a grizz that ate too many salmon.
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Yeah pretty much.
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10-12-2020, 03:05 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 2,065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf
I always thought a Alaska Brown bear was just a grizz that ate too many salmon.
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It is. B&C themselves admitted the DNA is identical and the name is based on geography only. See video. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3kmZTJ7gM
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10-12-2020, 05:47 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,858
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Absolutely true - zero genetic difference with no DNA divergence between "grizzly" and "brown" (Kodiak) bear. It can't even be classified as a subspecies as there is no divergence.
Proves the part nutrition plays in the size and health of an animal.
Don't know if that's the same issue as Shiras / Canada Moose.
There is some distinction between Roosevelt and Wapiti (American Elk) whereas the Roosevelt is a sub-species with divergence off the Wapiti line.
Same thing is true of the "nutrition" given to game farms that grow ridiculous antlers on deer .... and something more common now throughout the us as crops are planted, and supplements are put out to "grow horns".
I remember the days when a guy in the US would shoot a sad scrawny little 4x4 whitetail, call it a 10 pointer (includes the brow tines and counts both sides) and be excited posing with what I'd call is a "little fingerling" or meat buck. Things sure have changed. More and more "big bucks" are coming out of areas where the genetics and/or forage doesn't actually support a naturally large antler growth like what exists up here.
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10-13-2020, 11:48 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
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A moose is a moose, there’s zero difference DNA wise.
The further from the equator the bigger the body, and with moose this generally equates to larger rack size.
Some regions have different physical traits that have evolved over the years, but it’s just a moose.
Lower 48 is Shiras
Canada is Canada
Alaskan/Yukon is anything north of 60
That’s the way I see it anyway
The SCI Shiras bull**** I think was honestly done to help southern B.C. and Southern Alberta outfitters sell those hunts for what are essentially just smaller Canadian moose.
On the north end of the B.C. we have Canadian moose I’ve literally watched turn into Alaskan/Yukon moose and then back to Canadian moose before we killed them. Or put another way 15 inches into the all time B&C book as a Canadian moose, then missing the mark by 15 inches as an Alaskan/Yukon and back to hero status as a Canadian moose before dying.
Did anything change on the moose besides the fact he cost my hunter $16K to hunt him and the guy hunting with Ceaser Lake hunting the same moose $28K ??? Nope, same animal that crossed an invisible line lol
Now the guy hunting at Bonnet Plum or one of the more northern Yukon areas does have an advantage, in the moose world 400 miles north does make a difference. Likewise the guy hunting in PG shouldn’t expect to kill the bulls we do 👍
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10-14-2020, 07:13 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel
A moose is a moose, there’s zero difference DNA wise.
The further from the equator the bigger the body, and with moose this generally equates to larger rack size.
Some regions have different physical traits that have evolved over the years, but it’s just a moose.
Lower 48 is Shiras
Canada is Canada
Alaskan/Yukon is anything north of 60
That’s the way I see it anyway
The SCI Shiras bull**** I think was honestly done to help southern B.C. and Southern Alberta outfitters sell those hunts for what are essentially just smaller Canadian moose.
On the north end of the B.C. we have Canadian moose I’ve literally watched turn into Alaskan/Yukon moose and then back to Canadian moose before we killed them. Or put another way 15 inches into the all time B&C book as a Canadian moose, then missing the mark by 15 inches as an Alaskan/Yukon and back to hero status as a Canadian moose before dying.
Did anything change on the moose besides the fact he cost my hunter $16K to hunt him and the guy hunting with Ceaser Lake hunting the same moose $28K ??? Nope, same animal that crossed an invisible line lol
Now the guy hunting at Bonnet Plum or one of the more northern Yukon areas does have an advantage, in the moose world 400 miles north does make a difference. Likewise the guy hunting in PG shouldn’t expect to kill the bulls we do 👍
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100% agree with your Diesel....Moose are all the same but adapt to regional variations which affects body size/antler growth. This is all fabricated to sell more hunts, just like what the Ovis Grand Slam Club has done with sheep!
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10-14-2020, 08:02 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Saskatoon
Posts: 1,593
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This all goes back to the hunter naturalists who collected the early specimens and the US biologists like C. Hart Merriam who classified animals on minor skeletal difference.
You got your lumpers and the splitters in taxonomy.
Since hunters created scoring systems to their own biases, artificial boundaries became necessary.
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10-14-2020, 08:43 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
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Definitely lots of grey areas
Such as a Fannin ram
Is it a dall or is it a stone
Depends on who you ask or which club your entering it in
Asian European and African Animals are far worse
How many different whitetail sub species does sci have?
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10-14-2020, 08:29 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,616
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I could see a different body and antler size difference between the ones south of Calgary in the Chain lakes area compared to the northern ones.
The big Yukon ones are just in a whole different class when you go to cut up and hang the quarters.
Would be nice if there was a way of weighing the dead ones before gutting.
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