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  #61  
Old 07-09-2013, 01:20 PM
79ford 79ford is offline
 
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actually the railways started most of the towns , as they built stations where the trains had to stop to reload with water etc. It's a moot point anyway, I was getting at the fact that trains carry dangerous cargo thru' populated areas vs pipelines
With the shortage of lines to get product moved there is argueably a clean slate to build future infrastructure around populated areas and problem spots.

Back in the day when many of these rail roads were built I don't think they anticipated the stuff we would ship on them today.
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  #62  
Old 07-09-2013, 02:22 PM
Winch101 Winch101 is offline
 
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Default Medias suggesting terrorist attack

Several medias are now suggesting that this incident

Should be investigated as a terror attack ,not an accident...

Hold on
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  #63  
Old 07-09-2013, 02:34 PM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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With the shortage of lines to get product moved there is argueably a clean slate to build future infrastructure around populated areas and problem spots.

Back in the day when many of these rail roads were built I don't think they anticipated the stuff we would ship on them today.
That's a great theory..

But what happens when a situation like this happens in a remote environmentally sensitive area.. Can you say massive forest fire + oil spill.. Not to mention the amount of trains required to transport product compared to a pipeline is massive.. So more trains, more accidents..

..But train accidents don't happen that often../sarcasm..
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  #64  
Old 07-09-2013, 03:12 PM
ACM ACM is offline
 
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one conductor on the train- if hand brakes are set and pushpull test done correctly train stays put -not easy to release brakes on a train but not that difficult depends on how many hand brakes were set- no specific regulations but tug test is answer -- are there too many questions for this to be just an unfortunate accident. why do we allow idling trains to sit unattended many many parts to this mess
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  #65  
Old 07-09-2013, 04:01 PM
Fisherpeak Fisherpeak is offline
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one conductor on the train- if hand brakes are set and pushpull test done correctly train stays put -not easy to release brakes on a train but not that difficult depends on how many hand brakes were set- no specific regulations but tug test is answer -- are there too many questions for this to be just an unfortunate accident. why do we allow idling trains to sit unattended many many parts to this mess
Good point,I have worked on trains,if the handbreaks are set then it was outside interference.And the hand lines for the airbrakes have to be pulled Each car.That`s why the Cops are starting a criminal investigation.
AND....I still want to know how you get explosions like that from ruptured tanks.Crude just don`t burn as easy as 1-2-3 crash...instant multi car involvement.Jet fuel maybe,gasoline for sure ,crude oil????
Not to forget that the Loco caught fire shortly before all this.Stinks to high heaven.
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  #66  
Old 07-09-2013, 06:45 PM
FishingMOM FishingMOM is offline
 
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Good point,I have worked on trains,if the handbreaks are set then it was outside interference.And the hand lines for the airbrakes have to be pulled Each car.That`s why the Cops are starting a criminal investigation.
AND....I still want to know how you get explosions like that from ruptured tanks.Crude just don`t burn as easy as 1-2-3 crash...instant multi car involvement.Jet fuel maybe,gasoline for sure ,crude oil????
Not to forget that the Loco caught fire shortly before all this.Stinks to high heaven.
fire reported and fire dept was on site before the crash but after the conductor went to a hotel
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  #67  
Old 07-09-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by hal53 View Post
actually the railways started most of the towns , as they built stations where the trains had to stop to reload with water etc. It's a moot point anyway, I was getting at the fact that trains carry dangerous cargo thru' populated areas vs pipelines
It's a valid point. Pipelines are safer in the long run especially when considering volume transported.
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  #68  
Old 07-09-2013, 07:43 PM
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...and for fisherpeak, you do know that you need 3 things present to start a fire right???....all crude oil will have some light ends contained in it until it is refined, you get those light ends, combined with oxygen and a spark....there you have it....
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  #69  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:30 PM
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In any situation like this,

you must always ask yourself,

"Who stands to benefit?"

The last 2 posters have already made it clear what the answer is.
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  #70  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:32 PM
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In any situation like this,

you must always ask yourself,

"Who stands to benefit?"

The last 2 posters have already made it clear what the answer is.
remember the quote from Donald Sutherland...."follow the money"...just sayin.....
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  #71  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:34 PM
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totally agree.

I don't mean to insinuate any kind of conspiracy, but as they say,

All the world's a stage.
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  #72  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:34 PM
i_hate_snow i_hate_snow is offline
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AND....I still want to know how you get explosions like that from ruptured tanks.Crude just don`t burn as easy as 1-2-3 crash...instant multi car involvement.Jet fuel maybe,gasoline for sure ,crude oil????
Not to forget that the Loco caught fire shortly before all this.Stinks to high heaven.
Only thing that stinks is your lack of understanding of physics
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  #73  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:38 PM
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there is no way that train, with the locomotive removed, had all the brakes release and roll on a essentially level track to start and hit 101 km/h when the cars de-railed and caught fire, anybody believes that would also believe the cops were looking for survivors 8 days after the flood in High River...,
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  #74  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:48 PM
sjemac sjemac is offline
 
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There was a fire. I haven't read anywhere that they suspect vandalism
Guess I'm prescient.
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  #75  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:58 PM
LSLAKER LSLAKER is offline
 
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Default Railway derailers used?

Setting brakes is NOT the only way to secure train cars on a railway siding. There is always the possiblity of railway cars left on a railway siding to start moving onto an active track if the brakes are not holding because of the grade of the siding and in the case of empty box cars by strong winds.

It is good practice and if not mandatory for the railway line to install derailers at both ends of parked and unattended train cars.

A derailer is portable and is locked to the track a short distance from the train at both ends and will do exactly as it is named. A derailer will kick the rail car or locomotive's wheel off of the track and so by stopping it immediately.

Just why wasn't a derailer used when the train was to be left unattended? Was it to great of an effort for the single crew member? Since the train had some length to it this may have been quite possibly the reason.

Last edited by LSLAKER; 07-09-2013 at 09:06 PM.
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  #76  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:08 PM
twofifty twofifty is offline
 
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Default Tank car build standards

Have they changed? Apparently newer tank cars are built from thicker steel, so as to resist puncturing in a derail.

This particular RR was near bankruptcy a few years ago when they lost their lumber shipping biz. They survived by getting into the oil biz. Am guessing they bought used thin-wall cars that were perhaps being phased out by outfits like CNR, CPR, BN???
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  #77  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:43 PM
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Have they changed? Apparently newer tank cars are built from thicker steel, so as to resist puncturing in a derail.

This particular RR was near bankruptcy a few years ago when they lost their lumber shipping biz. They survived by getting into the oil biz. Am guessing they bought used thin-wall cars that were perhaps being phased out by outfits like CNR, CPR, BN???
Tank cars need to be tested every few years.

The whole story hasnt been told yet, but I'm sure there is more to it. Some things I can relate to, but as for a mode of power side I cannot comment.
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  #78  
Old 07-09-2013, 10:41 PM
i_hate_snow i_hate_snow is offline
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Setting brakes is NOT the only way to secure train cars on a railway siding. There is always the possiblity of railway cars left on a railway siding to start moving onto an active track if the brakes are not holding because of the grade of the siding and in the case of empty box cars by strong winds.

It is good practice and if not mandatory for the railway line to install derailers at both ends of parked and unattended train cars.

A derailer is portable and is locked to the track a short distance from the train at both ends and will do exactly as it is named. A derailer will kick the rail car or locomotive's wheel off of the track and so by stopping it immediately.

Just why wasn't a derailer used when the train was to be left unattended? Was it to great of an effort for the single crew member? Since the train had some length to it this may have been quite possibly the reason.
This train wasn't on a siding , it was on the mainline.
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  #79  
Old 07-10-2013, 05:21 AM
FishingMOM FishingMOM is offline
 
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CHICAGO/LAC-MEGANTIC, QUE. - The short length of track, nestled in a dark pine and birch forest in Quebec, is a regular overnight stop for freight trains hauling crude oil and other raw materials across North America.

Normally, before retiring for the night, the train operator sets the hand brakes and leaves one locomotive running to power the air brakes that help hold the train in place on the gently sloping track. The next morning, the operator or a relief engineer starts up the train and continues on their way.

Last weekend, the system failed. The locomotive caught fire, so firefighters shut off the engine to stop the flames from spreading. That slowly disengaged the air brakes, and the driverless train carrying 72 cars of crude oil rolled downhill into the scenic lakeside town of Lac-Megantic, derailing, exploding and leveling the town center.

At least 13 people were killed and some 37 are still missing, according to Canadian police. Few residents expect any of the missing to be found alive.

The catastrophe could force policymakers across North America to rethink the practice of shipping crude by rail - a century-old business that has boomed with the surge in shale oil production.

Based on Reuters interviews with witnesses, fire services and the head of the train company, the Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway (MMA), a tale emerges of how the brakes on a train parked on a slope were released leading to tragedy.

The accounts also frame the critical questions that investigators will be asking over the next few days and weeks. In particular, whether there was clear communication between the firefighters and the train operator, and whether anyone in authority saw the train start to roll down the hill before it picked up momentum and crashed into the town.

According to MMA Chairman Ed Burkhardt, the train operator was an experienced Canadian engineer who had parked the train in the small town of Nantes at a siding, a short length of track where trains make overnight stops. The siding is about 11 km from Lac-Megantic.

He secured the train at 11:25 p.m. on Friday, setting the air brakes and hand brakes, according to MMA. Burkhardt said the engineer set the brakes on all five locomotives at the front of the train, as well as brakes on a number of cars, in line with company policy. Four of the train's engines were switched off, but the front locomotive was left on to power the airbrakes. The engineer, who Burkhardt declined to name, then retired to a hotel in Lac-Megantic.

Soon after, things started to go wrong. Nantes Fire Chief Patrick Lambert said the fire department got a call about a blaze on one of the locomotives at 11:30 p.m. He said the fire was likely caused by a broken fuel or oil line.

Firefighters reached the scene within seven minutes.

"It was a good sized fire, but it was contained in the motor of the train," Lambert told Reuters. "By 12:12, the fire was completely out."

But as they extinguished the fire, the 12 volunteer firemen also switched off the locomotive, in line with their own protocols, to prevent fuel from circulating into the flames.

One of the many unknowns in the story is precisely what happened next.

Lambert said the fire department contacted the railway's regional office in Farnham, Quebec, and spoke to the dispatcher. "We told them what we did and how we did it," Lambert said. "There was no discussion of the brakes at that time. We were there for the train fire. As for the inspection of the train after the fact, that was up to them."

It was not known what the dispatcher did after receiving the call. Burkhardt said he was not sure if the dispatcher was told that the engine had been shut down, or what the dispatcher did after receiving the call. The company is still investigating the incident, as are Canadian authorities.

"This is all within the scope of our investigation," said Benoit Richard, a spokesman for the Quebec provincial police.

Burkhardt said the fire department should have tried to contact a local engineer who would have known how to secure the train. The hand brakes alone were not enough to keep the train in place after the pressure leaked out of the air brakes, he said.

"If they had actually talked to an engineer he would've known immediately what to do about that. I don't know what they actually said to the dispatcher," Burkhardt said in an interview in his office, decked out with model trains, rail posters and other railroad memorabilia, in a seven-storey building near Chicago O'Hare International Airport.

DOWNHILL

Shortly after the firefighters left the Nantes siding, an eyewitness reports seeing the train - some four-fifths of a mile long - start rolling down the gentle hill.

"About five minutes after the firemen left, I felt the vibration of a train moving down the track. I then saw the train move by without its lights on," said Andre Gendron, 38, whose trailer and off-the-grid wooden cabin are the only buildings anywhere near the rail siding.

"I found it strange its lights weren't on and thought it was an electrical problem on board. It wasn't long after that I heard the explosion. I could see the light from the fires in Lac-Megantic."

Burkhardt said the train picked up speed quickly and was likely going "far, far faster" than the speed limit of 16 km per hour as it reached a curve in the track in the very center of Lac-Megantic at around 1:15 a.m. on Saturday and jumped the tracks.

He said the locomotives separated from the buffer car - a heavy railcar loaded with stones or rocks or sand - and the tanker cars, which were laden with a free-flowing type of Bakken oil from North Dakota.

Lac-Megantic residents reported hearing a series of five or six explosions. The crude caught on fire, spread through the storm drains and spilled into the deep blue lake that the town was named after.

"This was a huge derailment. If you have a pile-up of cars like this, you are going to have a multitude of sparks," Burkhardt said. "The whole train was compressed into a few hundred feet in some spots. And cars piled three high in certain places."

"It's awful, it's absolutely awful," said Burkhardt, a slender, gray-haired rail industry veteran who is also president of Rail World Inc, a privately held rail management and investment firm that is the parent company of MMA.

Pictures taken from the air on Monday show blackened tanker cars concertinaed on top of the space where the popular Musi-Cafe used to be, a night-time hangout that was packed when the train roared into town.

Eyewitness Bernard Theberge, 44, said about 50 people were inside the bar as the train approached, and he was outside on the terrace.

"There was a big explosion, the heat reached the cafe and then a big wall of fire enveloped the road.... It all happened so fast, in the space of a minute," he said.

"There were people inside. I thought for maybe two seconds that I should go in, but the heat was too strong to get to the door," said Theberge, who escaped with second-degree burns.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:40 AM
LSLAKER LSLAKER is offline
 
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Default Derailers not installed

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Originally Posted by LSLAKER View Post
Setting brakes is NOT the only way to secure train cars on a railway siding. There is always the possiblity of railway cars left on a railway siding to start moving onto an active track if the brakes are not holding because of the grade of the siding and in the case of empty box cars by strong winds.

It is good practice and if not mandatory for the railway line to install derailers at both ends of parked and unattended train cars.

A derailer is portable and is locked to the track a short distance from the train at both ends and will do exactly as it is named. A derailer will kick the rail car or locomotive's wheel off of the track and so by stopping it immediately.

Just why wasn't a derailer used when the train was to be left unattended? Was it to great of an effort for the single crew member? Since the train had some length to it this may have been quite possibly the reason.
Of course the practice of installing derailers apply to any train cars whether on a siding or on a mainline. Unattended trains have to be secured and protected from moving on rail tracks because of possible brake failure. A slight grade or strong winds can cause rail cars to move. A derailer is a very positive method of stopping uncontrolled movement of train cars before momentum can be obtained.

Also when you have a steep grade on the rail line like this one had, someone should have thought thinks through better.

Last edited by LSLAKER; 07-10-2013 at 06:51 AM.
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  #81  
Old 07-10-2013, 07:14 AM
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Not sure where your news story comes from, but it does answer many questions.

It would appear that an insufficient amount of handbrakes to hold the train were applied when the train was left unattended. If more were applied and then taken off by somebody else later, that is for investigators to find out.

The simple fact of the engine being shut down would be irrelevant. This can be compared to the brakes in your car. The car needs to be running for the brakes to work easily, but the parking brake will work whether the car is running or not. If there were more handbrakes, all the train brakes could be released and it should not have been able to move.

The brakes on the train don't need air pressure to be applied. They actually work in reverse. The train brakes need air pressure to release and charge the brake system, and then it is a reduction in pressure that applies them.

As equipment gets older, it will develop leaks in some of the reservoirs on each separate train car. As these air reservoirs slowly leak air into the trainline, it starts a chain reaction of each car pumping air into the system. (remember this is without the engines running) As 1 car releases, it starts pumping air into the trainline, which in turn causes the cars beside it to also start pumping more air into the trainline. Eventually all air brakes release.

If there were more handbrakes applied when this happened, the train still would not start rolling once all the air brakes released. If the engineer had a sufficient amount of handbrakes and then had tried to move the train prior to leaving, he would have known it was safe to leave.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:26 AM
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Of course the practice of installing derailers apply to any train cars whether on a siding or on a mainline. Unattended trains have to be secured and protected from moving on rail tracks because of possible brake failure. A slight grade or strong winds can cause rail cars to move. A derailer is a very positive method of stopping uncontrolled movement of train cars before momentum can be obtained.

Also when you have a steep grade on the rail line like this one had, someone should have thought thinks through better.
I understand what your saying, but it is simply not practical to carry a derail around. The first thing is they are fairly heavy. Next thing is they need to be secured to the track by several spikes to ensure they are not removed by the public (kids, etc) and can be locked. Derails are already installed in tracks where cars are left for extended periods of time (several days or even weeks). A portable derail is only good when there is someone present all the time to make sure nobody removes it.

When there are enough handbrakes, the cars will not move, irregardless of heavy winds or grade.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:07 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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The brakes on the train don't need air pressure to be applied. They actually work in reverse. The train brakes need air pressure to release and charge the brake system, and then it is a reduction in pressure that applies them.

As equipment gets older, it will develop leaks in some of the reservoirs on each separate train car. As these air reservoirs slowly leak air into the trainline, it starts a chain reaction of each car pumping air into the system. (remember this is without the engines running) As 1 car releases, it starts pumping air into the trainline, which in turn causes the cars beside it to also start pumping more air into the trainline. Eventually all air brakes release.
It's been awhile since I taken my air brake course, and the train setup is different. so essentially each car has it's own air pump/reservoir/brakes, with a common "header" linked between each car that is fed by the locomotive? And your saying that once one car starts leaking, the pump from another car will attempt to fill it, and actually causing the brakes to release.

1st question that comes to my mind.. Why are the pumps (on the individual cars), working if the locomotive isn't started (and air from it being put into the header).

Seems the automotive style air brake would prevent this completely. Not only that, it would prevent them from having to use these "derail" or handbrakes.

Obviously I'm missing something.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:01 AM
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Only thing that stinks is your lack of understanding of physics
Perhaps you could enlighten me, I Eat Snow?
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:06 AM
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It's been awhile since I taken my air brake course, and the train setup is different. so essentially each car has it's own air pump/reservoir/brakes, with a common "header" linked between each car that is fed by the locomotive? And your saying that once one car starts leaking, the pump from another car will attempt to fill it, and actually causing the brakes to release.
Each railcar has its own brake system to apply and release the bakes on that particular car. The cars themselves do not have an air compressor. The supply of air to charge the system comes from the locomotives. I think the "header" you referred to, are the rubber air hoses that you see on both ends of each car. That is common link between each car that lets the air pressure be controlled from the engines.
Think of it as a solid air pipe (trainline) from the engines to the very last car on the train. Each car will have another pipe branching off of this main one (the trainline) to control the air brakes on that particular car. The leaking from one of the reservoirs that I referred to, actually leaks into the trainline, not out to the atmosphere. (remember the brakes need pressure to release) When the pressure in the trainline has increased by 1.5 psi, a control valve on the car next to the leaking one is activated and it in turn will start putting air into the trainline. The next car senses the 1.5psi increase and it then starts putting air from a resoirvoir into the trainline. This is how the chain reaction is started. The control valve on each car is operated pneumatically and only knows what is happening at that particular car. It doesn't know if the train is moving or stopped, unattended or manned. It just senses a rise or fall in the trainline air pressure at that car.
The system is actually designed this way to make the brakes release faster when the train is being operated.

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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
1st question that comes to my mind.. Why are the pumps (on the individual cars), working if the locomotive isn't started (and air from it being put into the header).
Not pumps, the air leaks from a resorvoir on one of the cars into the trainline. As the equipment gets older, it is not as air tight as it used to be. There are no pumps or compressors on the rail cars themselves.

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Seems the automotive style air brake would prevent this completely. Not only that, it would prevent them from having to use these "derail" or handbrakes.
I don't have an automotive class 1 air brake license, but if I understand it right, those brakes work in reverse of how trains work. Air pressure is increased to apply the brakes. Originally trains worked this way until the early 1900's when a better system was designed. The problem was if the train broke apart, there was no way to apply the brakes any more. That wasn't good.

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Obviously I'm missing something.
Hope I explained it better.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:19 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Hope I explained it better.[/QUOTE]

Much better.. That makes sense.. Thanks for the explanation..

Automotive air brakes have a parking brake that is spring/air actuated, when the parking brake is released air is supplied to that parking brake pulling the caliper off the drum. When an air loss occurs, the spring applies the brake.. The service brakes are like you said..


Although it's been years since I took the course..
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:43 AM
LSLAKER LSLAKER is offline
 
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Default Railway Derailers

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Originally Posted by Kokanee9 View Post
I understand what your saying, but it is simply not practical to carry a derail around. The first thing is they are fairly heavy. Next thing is they need to be secured to the track by several spikes to ensure they are not removed by the public (kids, etc) and can be locked. Derails are already installed in tracks where cars are left for extended periods of time (several days or even weeks). A portable derail is only good when there is someone present all the time to make sure nobody removes it.

When there are enough handbrakes, the cars will not move, irregardless of heavy winds or grade.
Next time I am at a railway siding that has derailers installed I will take a closer look at them. I just thought that they are easy to install. I did notice that there is a lock on them. Can they be unlocked and then flipped over and out of service to allow a train by and then flipped back into service again and relocked?
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:02 AM
twofifty twofifty is offline
 
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Default train brakes not like truck brakes

Contrary to what I've assumed in the past, train brakes do not function like truck brakes.

Did a quick search and found out that train brakes are applied through air pressure supplied & maintained by the locomotives(s). Without a running locomotive, there is no braking power save for each railcar's mechanical handbrakes, which must be set manually on each car.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:20 AM
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Kokanee9 Kokanee9 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by LSLAKER View Post
I did notice that there is a lock on them. Can they be unlocked and then flipped over and out of service to allow a train by and then flipped back into service again and relocked?
That's exactly how they are used.

Usually sidings wont have a derail. They are normally in backtracks that are used to store or load railcars.

When you take a closer look, notice that they are a pretty good sized chunk of metal. Try to imagine carrying that over a mile to the back of the train.

Good idea that you had, but just impractical when put into real world use.
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Last edited by Kokanee9; 07-10-2013 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:51 PM
i_hate_snow i_hate_snow is offline
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I just read another article that said the train was parked on the mainline, not siding. Not sure which is correct. But I read that sidings are supposed to have 0 grade
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