Mistaken permission

[redneck yote]

Originally Posted by wildside2014

what regs? I own and rent out my land. Renter has final say as long as a renters contract is in place.

Question ...Why would you give the renter the final say what happens on your land in a contract ??

[Pikebreath]

This issue was discussed at length in a thread a couple weeks ago http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=270391

I will repost the following direct quotes / excerpts from the Petty Trespass Act:

Prohibition

2(1) Every person who

(a) without the permission of the owner or occupier of land
enters on land when entry is prohibited under section 2.1,
or

(b) does not leave land immediately after he or she is directed
to do so by the owner or occupier of the land or a person
authorized by the owner or occupier
is guilty of an offence.

A lease holder/ tenant/ renter would be considered the "occupier"

Please note that the owner and occupier are treated equally in the act.

In a nutshell, in the absence of an agreed upon contract stating otherwise between the landlord and tenant, both the landowner and the tenant have the ability to allow / disallow access. Perhaps what is most important to realize is that the either the landlord or the tenant have the legal right to ask you to leave.

This is why it always best to ask your initial contact if there is a landlord or tenant that you need to seek permission from as well. In the case of conflicting access permission between the two, that is a matter the landlord and tenant must come to agreement on for you to legally enter the property.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by Deo101

Same thing happened to me. We gained permission from one renter (2 houses on property) to shoot some golfers in behind the acreage. The other renter, unaware we had permission from the other threatened our lives, saying that He'd get his biker buddies involved. Turned out the land owner lived somewhere else.

Op posted a legit concern. Be sure to gain permission from the true land owner, and I'd even go a step further and ensure any renters know that you're going to be out there.

If they are just renting the house(s) / yard(s) neither of them would be considered "occupiers or occupants" of the farm land.

[Borderbob]

We were on private land, we had written permission from land owner. He had forewarned that the guy next door had buffaloed some other hunters last year that they were trespassing., when they weren’t. We made sure to set up in the field that we had permission to hunt. A member of our group (my son) shot a nice whitetail buck. Then another member took a shot at another buck but missed, he miss judged the distance and shot over it. His gun hadn’t finished recoiling and I hear a 4 wheeler screaming through the woods next to us. A guy on the 4 wheeler pulls up by my son jumps off and says you are in trouble for trespassing and poaching. My son says no I have written permission right here, taking the letter out of his pocket. The guy says do you want to fight… My son says no. The guys says wheres the deer, son says I missed but my buddy shot a buck. The guys asks where is it I need to see that deer. Son points him to where other hunter is. He screams up there on the 4 wheeler, jumps off and pushes other hunter saying you shot “MY” deer. Other hunter recovers from shove and sets his gun down, by this time the guy is back on 4 wheeler circles the deer and rips off. The story doesn’t end there. The guy calls the land owner saying he has been feeding the deer all summer and we shot “HIS” deer. The land owner says well I cant control where wild animals go and the hunters had my permission to hunt on my land. The story continues but that is pretty much the worst of it. Nothing was done other than we were asked not to hunt that field anymore.

[horse_men]

An earlier post said it exactly right, I posted this just as a warning/reminder to others to learn from my experience. It was a crappy situation that ruined my plans and ambition to hunt for the day. I was not trying to stir debate on landowner/renter agreements nor on the actions of the landowner chasing the animals.

The police never showed up or contacted me as of yet. When the landowner returned he said they came to talk to him but I do not believe they would have been in the area and not come to talk to me at the same time. Regardless, I was
not looking for trouble or to start a ****ing match. I know that what I watched the landowner do in chasing the deer off the field was illegal but it would do no good to pursue the matter from my perspective.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Borderbob

We were on private land, we had written permission from land owner. He had forewarned that the guy next door had buffaloed some other hunters last year that they were trespassing., when they weren’t. We made sure to set up in the field that we had permission to hunt. A member of our group (my son) shot a nice whitetail buck. Then another member took a shot at another buck but missed, he miss judged the distance and shot over it. His gun hadn’t finished recoiling and I hear a 4 wheeler screaming through the woods next to us. A guy on the 4 wheeler pulls up by my son jumps off and says you are in trouble for trespassing and poaching. My son says no I have written permission right here, taking the letter out of his pocket. The guy says do you want to fight… My son says no. The guys says wheres the deer, son says I missed but my buddy shot a buck. The guys asks where is it I need to see that deer. Son points him to where other hunter is. He screams up there on the 4 wheeler, jumps off and pushes other hunter saying you shot “MY” deer. Other hunter recovers from shove and sets his gun down, by this time the guy is back on 4 wheeler circles the deer and rips off. The story doesn’t end there. The guy calls the land owner saying he has been feeding the deer all summer and we shot “HIS” deer. The land owner says well I cant control where wild animals go and the hunters had my permission to hunt on my land. The story continues but that is pretty much the worst of it. Nothing was done other than we were asked not to hunt that field anymore.

You let him off easier than I would have. I would have told him to stay put, while I call the RCMP. , so that we can settle this. I would have told him that he can tell his story, and the fellow that was pushed could report the assault that he just experienced. It would be interesting to see his response. If he came to his senses, I would offer him the opportunity to apologize to the person that he had just pushed, and then go home and not disturb the hunt any further , and the assault would be forgotten. If he flipped out and stated pushing people around, I would have called the RCMP and let them deal with him.

[Borderbob]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You let him off easier than I would have. I would have told him to stay put, while I call the RCMP. , so that we can settle this. I would have told him that he can tell his story, and the fellow that was pushed could report the assault that he just experienced. It would be interesting to see his response. If he came to his senses, I would offer him the opportunity to apologize to the person that he had just pushed, and then go home and not disturb the hunt any further , and the assault would be forgotten. If he flipped out and stated pushing people around, I would have called the RCMP and let them deal with him.

It is funny how life plays out... I happen to do work that brings me into contact with the Alberta MNR from time to time. Today I had a long chat an Inspector from the Major Investigations and Intelligence Unit. There may be a visit to the guy that was sure he could do as he pleased and no one could stop him.

[BigCalgaryMulie]

Hello All,
Through pure ignorance I recently got myself in quite a situation around Sundre. Truck hunting and spotted whitetails on either side of the road in open cropped fields. Decided it was unsafe to shoot. Drove around to pursue and there was a nice little buck just inside a fence in some trees. Nailed it five yards inside the wire. Cleaned up and loaded. Soon headed off by a farmer who took down our info. This dumb ass mistake cost me $2000 and a stern warning that all the trouble around Sundre was due to Calgarians.
As I sat in Provincial Court today I heard about a local guy who poached a Mulie shooting from his truck (poacher got the same fine as me). Another local guy harvested road kill deer and was later found to have untagged game birds in his home ($300). Another group of four was jack lighting, drinking, trespassing, and shooting up the night (shooter got $3500 and the other three $1000 each). All of the jack lighters locals evidently kept their guns and hunting privileges!! My five yard trespass cost $400 per yard. Don't be the next fool. Hunt on Crown land or get farmer permission preferably in writing! And for the love of Mike do not get caught hunting while Calgarian near Sundre.

[alacringa]

Originally Posted by BigCalgaryMulie

Hello All,
Through pure ignorance I recently got myself in quite a situation around Sundre.

Where is the ignorance in what you did? You intentionally shot an animal that was on private property, from what you have explained. You (and the others you described) should be thankful to have got off so easy. You are one of those who makes a bad name for the rest of us. Nice first post .

[beaver hunter]

[elkhunter11]

Where is the ignorance in what you did? You intentionally shot an animal that was on private property, from what you have explained. You (and the others you described) should be thankful to have got off so easy. You are one of those who makes a bad name for the rest of us. Nice first post

X2

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by huntwat

The renters have all the right in the world to grant permission.
I would report him for interfering with your hunt and for harassing wildlife.

Both the landlord and the tenant have the right to refuse access and ask someone to leave the property. If one or the other wants you gone, then you are legally obliged not to trespass.

The moral of the story is to always ask your first contact if there is a tenant or landlord that needs to be contacted as well before heading in.

I am a bit surprised the tenant would grant permission if the landlord is that dead set against hunting. Good way to become a "former renter".

[J0HN_R1]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That situation may not be the same with all rental contracts. Depending on what is written in the rental contract, an owner that does not like hunting, could include a clause about the renter not being able to allow hunting on the property.

Don't ya think the renter would know that before giving permission...?



That landowner wouldn't have gone anywhere until F&W or the RCMP showed up.

He had absolutely zero right to interfere with the hunt OR harass the deer with his truck.

I feel bad for the OP...

[HoytCRX32]

I'm curious...I know this thread is dated but did the OP follow up with his customer (the renter) to find out if the owner spoke with him about this/hunting on his property?

[Rig 44]

Yes driving around and honking and chasing the deer off the field is illegal its called harassing wildlife I.ve seen guys charged because of it

[horse_men]

There is a follow up to this story, I wasn't going to post any more about it but since the thread re-appeared I may as well.

After checking back with the renter I learned that the guy who chased the deer and kicked me out DOES NOT in fact own the land. He was just a neighbor who doesn't like other people hanging around his area. I could have pursued charges for him chasing the deer as well as he actually being the trespasser in this case. However, I make a living working in the area and decided it best that I not take that route. The renter who gave me permission did have a "chat" with him in regards to his actions and how he was in the wrong.

This was a situation that certainly could have and should have never happened. I will certainly do things different in the future to avoid any more issues with being on rented land.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by J0HN_R1

Don't ya think the renter would know that before giving permission...?



That landowner wouldn't have gone anywhere until F&W or the RCMP showed up.

He had absolutely zero right to interfere with the hunt OR harass the deer with his truck.

I feel bad for the OP...

Both the renter and the landowner should know all of the terms of the rental agreement, but people sometimes neglect to read every detail, or they simply never bother to include details like allowing access for hunting, and both parties often assume that they are the authority in that regard.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by horse_men

There is a follow up to this story, I wasn't going to post any more about it but since the thread re-appeared I may as well.

After checking back with the renter I learned that the guy who chased the deer and kicked me out DOES NOT in fact own the land. He was just a neighbor who doesn't like other people hanging around his area. I could have pursued charges for him chasing the deer as well as he actually being the trespasser in this case. However, I make a living working in the area and decided it best that I not take that route. The renter who gave me permission did have a "chat" with him in regards to his actions and how he was in the wrong.

This was a situation that certainly could have and should have never happened. I will certainly do things different in the future to avoid any more issues with being on rented land.

I would have F@W look into an "interfering with a legal hunt" charge.

[wildside2014]

Originally Posted by redneck yote

Question ...Why would you give the renter the final say what happens on your land in a contract ??

Because if he/she is renting my land I cant expect a phone call everytime a hired hand needs to access the property. The are renting from me. Its their place until the time comes where they don't need use of the land

[Camdelle]

Originally Posted by BigCalgaryMulie

Hello All,
Through pure ignorance I recently got myself in quite a situation around Sundre. Truck hunting and spotted whitetails on either side of the road in open cropped fields. Decided it was unsafe to shoot. Drove around to pursue and there was a nice little buck just inside a fence in some trees. Nailed it five yards inside the wire. Cleaned up and loaded. Soon headed off by a farmer who took down our info. This dumb ass mistake cost me $2000 and a stern warning that all the trouble around Sundre was due to Calgarians.
As I sat in Provincial Court today I heard about a local guy who poached a Mulie shooting from his truck (poacher got the same fine as me). Another local guy harvested road kill deer and was later found to have untagged game birds in his home ($300). Another group of four was jack lighting, drinking, trespassing, and shooting up the night (shooter got $3500 and the other three $1000 each). All of the jack lighters locals evidently kept their guns and hunting privileges!! My five yard trespass cost $400 per yard. Don't be the next fool. Hunt on Crown land or get farmer permission preferably in writing! And for the love of Mike do not get caught hunting while Calgarian near Sundre.

Koodos to you for posting this. It took some hootzpa on your part.

I think its very poor class for some guys to knock on you when youve admitted to the crime and done your time.

No point in knocking a guy down even more after what ya been through!

[jethunter]

Originally Posted by huntwat

The renters have all the right in the world to grant permission....

That is absolutely correct.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by jethunter

That is absolutely correct.

Depending on the conditions of the rental agreement.

[roger]

I had a similar while anteloping. I got an land owner map, knocked on doors secured permission on a 5000acre property, after walking in for a mile and a few seconds after tipping an antelope over I see a pickup charging across the field. A very angry man asking me who I got permission from to hunt on his posted land. The map clearly showed the title to the current landowner. Turns out it was the family member of the landowner and it was "his" fraternal quarter and hadn't seen a map for years and this title had been adsorbed legally by the big farm. I apologized for upsetting him and asked him if I could have done this better based on the information at hand, as a hunter himself he come to terms that I had done things with respect.
The family is great group of people, just sick of people trespassing and I can understand that. Even though it got ironed out,
It is enough of event to make me want to quit hunting all together.

[catnthehat]

Thee is a land owner in the area hunt down south who leases a lot of land, and the lease agreements stipulate NO HUNTING.
The signed lease supersedes laws that state that a renter can grant permission to hunt because the renter has signed of on the lease agreement.
Cat

[Joe Fehr]

I've decided that next year all my hunting will be on private land I have permission on just to stay clear of the extreme amount of people I ran into on the crown land I hunt.
I get pretty much exclusive permission because I don't drive around and shoot from the truck, respect their land, cattle and police trespassers for them. Last year they even brought the tractor to pull out my elk and hang it and gut it.
Their neighbours police hard too, I'm polite with them and show respect that they don't want people on their land.
They rent alot of land and I get permission on it also without a problem.
Carry a map and make sure you know where you are at all times. It'll save a ton of headaches.

[jethunter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Depending on the conditions of the rental agreement.

Sure. And Alien abductions could be forbidden in the conditions of the rental agreement as well. But they usually aren't.

have you seen a lot of those rental contracts that forbid the renter from granting access? I haven't seen any but maybe it is different in your area.

I rented several thousand acres per year from 20-30 different owners and never saw this condition attached to a standard lease.

Maybe if you get closer to the big cities the landowners want to keep hunting access for themselves but in most rural situations it's not even a consideration for many land owners.

[nrsmatth]

We ran into a situation this year where a landowner who had granted us permission for years had rented his land out. He was okay with us hunting, the renter was not.

Quick call to a lawyer friend of mine made it pretty clear that unless otherwise stipulated, the renter controlled access to the land.

[MikeGreenstein]

Originally Posted by huntwat

The renters have all the right in the world to grant permission.
I would report him for interfering with your hunt and for harassing wildlife.

Renters do not have the right to grant permission without the landowners consent. I know this as I am a landowner and also a renter.

[Joe Fehr]

Originally Posted by MikeGreenstein

Renters do not have the right to grant permission without the landowners consent. I know this as I am a landowner and also a renter.

Renters have every right to grant permission, they have paid for the use of the land. If the land owner doesn't want people hunting then they had better put that in the rental agreement.
I've had this discussion with the RCMP and was that the renter / lease holder has every right to grant permission as they see fit.
Same rules as if they were renting a house, they can let anyone in they want without the owners consent.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by BigCalgaryMulie

Hello All,
Through pure ignorance I recently got myself in quite a situation around Sundre. Truck hunting and spotted whitetails on either side of the road in open cropped fields. Decided it was unsafe to shoot. Drove around to pursue and there was a nice little buck just inside a fence in some trees. Nailed it five yards inside the wire. Cleaned up and loaded. Soon headed off by a farmer who took down our info. This dumb ass mistake cost me $2000 and a stern warning that all the trouble around Sundre was due to Calgarians.
As I sat in Provincial Court today I heard about a local guy who poached a Mulie shooting from his truck (poacher got the same fine as me). Another local guy harvested road kill deer and was later found to have untagged game birds in his home ($300). Another group of four was jack lighting, drinking, trespassing, and shooting up the night (shooter got $3500 and the other three $1000 each). All of the jack lighters locals evidently kept their guns and hunting privileges!! My five yard trespass cost $400 per yard. Don't be the next fool. Hunt on Crown land or get farmer permission preferably in writing! And for the love of Mike do not get caught hunting while Calgarian near Sundre.

I have to say that I'm a little confused about the part of your story where a fellow was charged 300.00 for having "untagged" Game Birds in his home.