Baiting In Alberta

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Sounds like we have a lot in common. Perhaps stop trying to read things into my posts and you'll be less confused

I just noticed that you changed your tag line....

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

I just noticed that you changed your tag line....

Yesterday when I was accused of supporting an erradication of all cervids in WMUs with game farms....lol ...ya...some things seem obvious to me but apparently not others....hopefully it will help.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...not sure how much more direct I could be...this is a thread about baiting and I said I oppose baiting....nothing really to read into that...well or so I thought. The only facts germain to this discussion regarding CWD are that we have it in Alberta and how it is spread.

I know you have an axe to grind and no question a legitimate one but how CWD arrived in Alberta or if the culls were effective aren't germain to this discussion. Not saying they aren't important topics for another thread...just not in this thread. This thread was about baiting and there is concern about disease and baiting...that was my only reason for bringing CWD up......you following Refusing to be part of a hijack does not mean I have an opposing view, just that I don't want to be part of a hijack......you know, keep it direct.

There's been some respectful and productive discussion about baiting in this thread. The stuff on the prolifery...not so much

LOL

Alot of this discussion ( baitng) are interlaced....... hijacked ?..... Matter of opinion..... The thread is about baiting, was it concern about ethics or linked to the spread of cwd?....... What started my discussion on baitng ban was the Alberta Gov was using baitng to cull healthy deer , congregating ungulates in a known cwd positve area in the wild deer population...... go back and read ..... hyprocritical?.....How ironic.... And the continued ignorance of the gov to allow the congregation of domesticated Elk and Deer farms province wide ..... These issues go hand in hand.....

Originally Posted by NIKON

LOL

Alot of this discussion ( baitng) are interlaced....... hijacked ?..... Matter of opinion..... The thread is about baiting, was it concern about ethics or linked to the spread of cwd?....... What started my discussion on baitng ban was the Alberta Gov was using baitng to cull healthy deer , congregating ungulates in a known cwd positve area in the wild deer population...... go back and read ..... hyprocritical?.....How ironic.... And the continued ignorance of the gov to allow the congregation of domesticated Elk and Deer farms province wide ..... These issues go hand in hand.....

I've always got the irony and hypocracy but unless you are arguing that two wrongs make a right...which btw they don't, game farms and SRD baiting really aren't important to this particular discussion. I love irony too but neither of them makes a case for or against baiting...unless you are believe that game farms are good or that two wrongs make a right. The government does all kinds of hypocritical stuff.

I agree that there are two sides to the baiting issue...ethics and disease....I have no interest in the ethics part but do have a keen interest in the disease part. That's why I've confined my discussion to that. If others want to argue ethics, that's certainly their perogative.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I've always got the irony and hypocracy but unless you are arguing that two wrongs make a right...which btw they don't, game farms and SRD baiting really aren't important to this particular discussion. I love irony too but neither of them makes a case for or against baiting...unless you are believe that game farms are good or that two wrongs make a right. The government does all kinds of hypocritical stuff.

I agree that there are two sides to the baiting issue...ethics and disease....I have no interest in the ethics part but do have a keen interest in the disease part. That's why I've confined my discussion to that. If others want to argue ethics, that's certainly their perogative.

[cheemo]

Oh my, some people are so far out of touch of reality in this thread it is rediculous. I currently live and farm on the land my grandpa purchased back in the fourties. At that time it was something special to see a deer out here in eastern Alberta. My cousin remembers the day he seen a mule deer out here for the first time. Since those times the deer numbers have exploded out here. Anybody know why???

The main reason is because the prairies have become one big smorg for the deer moose and now elk that are roaming these regions. The biggest herd of deer I've seen out here was back in the nineties during a rough winter, I counted over a hundred whitetail deer feeding in my backyard on a sidehill that is native grass. There is a small bush to the west and north of this sidehill so it is protected from getting blown in.

I guess according to some of you this type of natural food source that has deer herded up to feed on native grasses should be eraticated as it may promote the transmission of cwd. Give your heads a shake and wake up. The reason we have so many deer to hunt is because of the plentiful food that has become available over the past 75 years or so. I guess it is also a good idea to lock up the farmers who have grain laying on the ground in their fields or bales of feed laying around for deer to feed on.

Let's face the fact that this no baiting law in Alberta when it comes to hunting is an ethical thing not a disease transmission prevention. What is more ethical a hunter making a clean kill on a deer standing over a bait pile or the countless number of deer that get wounded by hunters that decide to take risky shots at deer. I have taken many respectable bucks and not one of them has been over a bait pile. But if I decided that I wanted to hunt that way it should be an option availible to me. Will I ever use it probably not. The whole chicken little attitude by some in this thread is appaling. Rant over.

[grinr]

CWD or not,I hope baiting ungulates for hunting purposes remains illegal in AB.The CWD argument doesn't fly anyhow when baiting is allowed to continue for purposes other than hunting.
I won't argue the ethics or sportsmanship of hunting deer over bait,only that I find it to be a boring and amateurish way to go about deer hunting.Why would anybody wanna bait in AB anyways....Chrisakes,I see more deer during a typical good hunting day here than many of the master baiters I know would likely see all season in NB.Mind you the habitat there is more often than not thick bush and the deer herd has taken a chit kickn crash since the late 80's,but still,I've always been able to find my deer there year after year by workn hard for them,and by workn hard I don't mean lugging sack after sack of apples.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by cheemo

At that time it was something special to see a deer out here in eastern Alberta. My cousin remembers the day he seen a mule deer out here for the first time. Since those times the deer numbers have exploded out here. Anybody know why???

The main reason is because the prairies have become one big smorg for the deer moose and now elk that are roaming these regions.

I too remember a time when there were very very few Deer in this area. "The Peace River district.
And although there is no doubt in my mind that Deer and Elk benefit greatly from farming there is also no doubt in my mind that there's a lot more to the present numbers then just man made food sources.

My dad came into this area in 1932. He talked about seeing herds of Deer along the slopes of the Peace River valley. He described herds in the hundreds. At that time farming and in fact, human development was none existent north of the town of Peace River. And very sparse south of the town.

When I was old enough to tramp the countryside on my own, one of my favourite routes was along game trails worn deep into the soil on the ridge above our home. Back then the trails were still clear of vegetation. They were close to a foot wide and worn four inches or more into the soil.
It hadn't been long since they had seen a lot of use.
Today those trails are so overgrown they are hard to find.

Now I know that Bison were one of the primary users of those trails, but Deer used them and when dad came into the country Deer were the only large animal left that used them. The Bison were already gone.
And there were no Elk.
As far as I know, there may have never been Elk in this area before F&W brought some in, in the 1980s.

I do agree with you on the concentrating of Deer around feed sources.
Like you I have seen herds of Deer feeding day after day on grain piles, at bail stacks and in silage pits. I can't imagine a small pile of feed put out by a hunter drawing the same numbers or for as long a period of time as the "bait piles" that are already out there.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You seem to be reading a lot into things Justin that hasn't been said here. Of course a breeding buck can spread CWD as can a million other types of contact, I don't recall anyone saying they couldn't. And, where has anyone said baiting is the main cause? All I've read here is that concentrating deer unnaturally can further the spread of the disease. It can...that is an undisputable fact. We are talking risk factors and what increases those risk factors. Some we can manage and some we can't. The arguement is to manage the ones we can. No one is pinning CWD on baiting...just saying that it increases the risk factor of infection.

Can you honestly tell me you can't see the difference between a 1/4 section of oats and a six foot diameter pile of oats in the relation to deer being exposed to prions? This is common sense stuff. Read what guys like Donkey are actually writing...not what you want it say. He's a smart guy.

If you go back and read my posts all I wanted to establish was like you just said there are millions of other ways CWD can be transferred. If that is the case there is no stopping it I am sorry to say unless mother nature finds away. I am not trying to get baiting legalized either just to be clear.

As for the 1/4 of oats or peas it is all relevant to how many animals are on it. If you have 600 elk 100 mules and 30 whitetails in that field every year on a constant basis that is a huge bait site similar to the 10-20 deer that might visit a smaller bait site. I believe that pea/oat field is even worse than a small bait site because a pea field can and will draw in animals from miles away they eat can be in direct contact with each other then go back to their home quarters. Ask any farmer who has elk and deer problems eating their bails and ask them how concentrated they are. I have watched deer run 2 miles at a full out sprint across an open field to a grain bins at a farmers place up north. It was done every night right after legal light. Good luck stopping this province wide. Again I am not promoting baiting for hunting.
And yes Donkey is smart and has assured us that there are no elk or deer in the western WMU's with CWD so in that case feeding animals in the winter to help them survive should be fine there then correct?

[justinO]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I do agree with you on the concentrating of Deer around feed sources.
Like you I have seen herds of Deer feeding day after day on grain piles, at bail stacks and in silage pits. I can't imagine a small pile of feed put out by a hunter drawing the same numbers or for as long a period of time as the "bait piles" that are already out there.

X2

Originally Posted by justinO

If you go back and read my posts all I wanted to establish was like you just said there are millions of other ways CWD can be transferred. If that is the case there is no stopping it ?

Without a vaccination...nope....haven't heard anyone say anything different. We can take steps, however, to reduce its infection rate and and spread, like preventing baiting.

Figure out how many times a 6' circle goes into a 1/4 section and tell me again how farm fields are worse. It's not uncommon to have 40-50 deer visit a bait site in a day.......

[Lefty-Canuck]

There are a fair amount of people baiting right now that are non-hunters and the baiting they are doing is perfectly legal....

I don't think you can vaccinate against a protein....

There are no reliable "live tests" for CWD, so far all the reliable means of testing require a dead specimen....

I don't even know if there is an environmental test for soil to detect it....

LC

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Without a vaccination...nope....haven't heard anyone say anything different. We can take steps, however, to reduce its infection rate and and spread, like preventing baiting.

Figure out how many times a 6' circle goes into a 1/4 section and tell me again how farm fields are worse. It's not uncommon to have 40-50 deer visit a bait site in a day.......

yes I understand math but it is the act of contact I am talking about. You just said there are millions of ways the disease is transferred. When you have herds of deer and elk in one field they are more likely to come in contact with each other. Not to mention as Keg just stated bail stacks, grain piles, grain bins, and grain tubes.

Originally Posted by justinO

yes I understand math but it is the act of contact I am talking about. You just said there are millions of ways the disease is transferred. When you have herds of deer and elk in one field they are more likely to come in contact with each other. Not to mention as Keg just stated bail stacks, grain piles, grain bins, and grain tubes.

I'm still trying to grasp your reasoning.....are you saying that because we already have ways that CWD is spread that we should increase those ways? Help me out here.

There's no arguement that lots of things man does can increase the rate of infection...is this another case of two wrongs making right? It seems to be the most common theme in this thread. We are already stupid so let's get stupider?

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by justinO

And yes Donkey is smart and has assured us that there are no elk or deer in the western WMU's with CWD so in that case feeding animals in the winter to help them survive should be fine there then correct?

Are you on drugs? Really I want to know.

I have never assured anyone anything.

I was asked my opinion. I gave it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Guess someone like you deserves to be on the ignore list same as NIKON.

I'll stop here before getting a warning.

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Are you on drugs? Really I want to know.

I have never assured anyone anything.

I was asked my opinion. I gave it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Guess someone like you deserves to be on the ignore list same as NIKON.

I'll stop here before getting a warning.

Feel free to copy my signature...lol It really doesn't matter how carefully you choose your words on here...someone will twist them to suit their needs. It's one of the benefits of membership....lol

[justinO]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Are you on drugs? Really I want to know.

I have never assured anyone anything.

I was asked my opinion. I gave it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Guess someone like you deserves to be on the ignore list same as NIKON.

I'll stop here before getting a warning.

Ok I am sorry from what I read i thought you said there wasn't cwd in the west I must have been mistaken. Many pages of reading in the past few days onca again sorry.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Feel free to copy my signature...lol It really doesn't matter how carefully you choose your words on here...someone will twist them to suit their needs. It's one of the benefits of membership....lol

Give a person a second to apologize there sheep.. Glad you have never made a mistake when quoting someone I thought the whole time he was debating that the cull was done because CWD wasn't in the west. And I already apologized to him for it once again sorry..

Originally Posted by justinO

Give a person a second to apologize there sheep.. Glad you have never made a mistake when quoting someone I thought the whole time he was debating that the cull was done because CWD wasn't in the west. And I already apologized to him for it once again sorry..

Wasn't necessarily aimed at you.....you've been only one pellet in the shotgun blast of assumptions in this thread.

I'm going to bow out now and sleep soundly tonight knowing there isn't a snowball chance in hell that baiting for hunting cervids will ever be permitted in Alberta. ESRD occasionally gets it right

[Red Bullets]

The ethics of baiting in Alberta ?

The province of Alberta allows baiting in every other form.

Bear hunters use bait. It is proven that most bears using bait sites do die of lead poisoning. hehe

Trappers use bait to harvest their fur.

Farmers use poisoned grain baits to control/kill gophers and strychnine baits for coyotes. That is allowing indiscriminative poisoning of more than gophers and coyotes. The counties will even supple the 'poisons'.

Fishermen bait their hooks.

Migratory hunters hunt over grain fields.

Alberta gov't. does not have many ethics when it comes to baiting standards.
Allowing poisoned baits for a few species, which render the dead poisonee useless to the ecosystem or for natural consumption; and on the other hand not let baited hunting happen, food for people? It makes no sense. If there was a true concern about disease, they better keep all the migrating species out.

In my opinion, the baiting ethic is purely regional politics. I would use a bait at a trap or on a hook, but when hunting, I myself prefer the thrill of stalk and shoot.

Used wisely, baiting could be instrumental in harvesting more meat for those who do need meat to feed thier families.

I would think that the animals would be really confused if they tested humans for consumption. A lot of people wouldn't make the "Grade 'A'" standard for meat either.
Every species have their weak and sickly.

[cheemo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm still trying to grasp your reasoning.....are you saying that because we already have ways that CWD is spread that we should increase those ways? Help me out here.

There's no arguement that lots of things man does can increase the rate of infection...is this another case of two wrongs making right? It seems to be the most common theme in this thread. We are already stupid so let's get stupider?

Why are we even discussing CWD in this thread? Without using CWD as a crutch, please explain to me why it was illegal to bait deer in this peovince long before the disease became an issue?

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by justinO

Ok I am sorry from what I read i thought you said there wasn't cwd in the west I must have been mistaken. Many pages of reading in the past few days onca again sorry.

Hey Justin

Don't let donkey bully you. Hes got a personal agenda. Thats why I put him on ignore. Some guys are always right. Wink wink. You bring valid points to the debate. I couldn't get it thru to him 320 head submissions doesn't clear the western provinces of cwd. My point being if you don't test for it it appears it diesn't exist. Bottom line

[KegRiver]

To lay the foundation for what I'm about to say, I need to make it clear that for me the way Deer and Elk utilize man made feed sources is not something I just imagine. It's something I observe on an almost daily basis.

Not only have I lived and worked on farms for the better part of my life, I live just a couple of hundred yards from a site where farmers load grain onto rail cars year round. In the process they spill a lot of grain and that grain draws Deer, and in the summer, Bear, into my yard, again, almost daily.

From what I have observed, I don't think it's a matter of whether or not baiting will increase the chances of spreading CWD. Of course there's a chance it might. And there's a chance I will win the lottery. Now if I were to buy a ticket, maybe it'd increase my chances considerable, but even without buying a ticket, it is theoretically possible. Just like it's theoretically possible that baiting will help spread CWD.

Now I don't know the exact numbers but I would think that even if baiting were permitted, only a small percentage of the total number of hunters out there would use that method.
To be effective, those bait piles would need to be in a somewhat out of the way place. That and the cost of buying the bait would limit the size of such baits for most who would use bait.
Add to that the simple fact that baiting would only be worth doing during the season and what we wind up with is a small fraction of what's already out there.

Because whats out there is hundreds of thousands of tons of readily accessible feed in hundreds, if not thousands of locations, and those sources are in place for months at a time, some even all year, every year.

Something else I have observed. Although grain piles, bale stacks, and silage pits are quite common, accessible for many months and well known to Deer and Elk, it isn't until mid to late winter that they get much attention from those Deer or Elk.
Early to mid fall, (the hunting season) Deer and Elk do visit such feed sources but not in large numbers and not for long periods of time like they do later.

In other words, I don't believe hunters putting out bait would draw the concentrations of Deer that seems to be behind most of the opposition to the idea of allowing baiting. Moreover, hunters bait piles, if they were allowed, would amount at most a fraction of a percent of what is there already.

And on top of that, we are talking about something that may or may not happen. For all we know, CWD will spread throughout the province no matter what we do, and would even if we were to eliminate all man made food sources. Or it may never spread any further even if baiting is allowed.

The spread of CWD is, at least of now, all a matter of guess work.
I mean, sure we know that concentrating animals will help to spread the disease (protein) but what we don't know is what else spreads this condition.

What role does water sources play? Is it spread by predators and scavengers? Does mutual grooming spread the condition?
And most of all, what are the exact numbers with regards to normally occurring man made feed sources verses baiting sources.

I may be persuaded to change my position, but not by guesswork.
I know what's already out there. What I don't know is how much bait in how many individual locations over what period of time will there be out there, if baiting were to become legal. And what percentage would they contribute to the spread of CWD compared to what's already out there.

So far, none of the articles I've read or the arguments I've heard, seem to have any idea. I do have an idea, and the answer seems to me to be, very little.

What I also would like to know is, will not allowing hunters to bait Deer, stop the spread of CWD? Again, no one seems to know.

Like I said, I might win the lottery but it would increase my chances considerable if I bought a few tickets.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

you havent read the links already provided.

it is spread via prions which are shed by infected animals in excrement, body fluids etc. the exact origin is not known for sure, but all evidence points to a mutation from other TSE diseases. the factual links have been provided if anyone would bother to read them.



david, you asked for evidence and links and i provided them. you clearly have not read them and i suspect you have barely skimmed the links you provided yourself. there is info on the front page of a few that disputes what you are saying....which is nothing more than what the "experts" in AB and SK have fed us.

your math is a little suspect as well. you said that 3 deer indicates 100% infection. i dont believe you arent smart enough to know that 3 animals is not a representative number to prove anything. i suspect when you say there is 25% infection in SK, that it would be along the lines of 4 animals were tested and 1 was positive. i would provide more links, but its a waste of time when you havent read the ones already provided. i said it early in this topic that anyone today that still isnt educated on the facts of this disease doesnt want to be. you are proving my point.

Dale i have read as i dont work and haven,t for 17 year due to injury so i have read the reports that these papers cite as sources and have e-mail Dr Val Giest .. and read his papers on this issue .. also talk on phone to Dr Trent Bollinger Lead of CWD Canada and read reports by his students and had talks too people in Montana/Wy/Col ..

i also have given my opinion where i stand on these issues what are yours on what i posted

if you had read the report they put 3 animals into the pen and all three died from prion infection,, if any animal is in a pen and another is infective then most likely they will get it too and die

you said i said Sask had a 25 % infection rate where did i say that please re-read thanks

so where do you stand on these issues

David

i do not agree with Deer or Elk farming or hunt farms in Sask or anywhere .. every time a wmu has a postive test its put on the mandatory testing list.. i do not agree with baiting or feeding of any wildlife.. i do not agree with high numbers of unglates in any area of Alberta .. AFGA has a paper saying that 16 per sq mile is to high...
the only place it been detected is shown in posted

the recomended policy is in posts

it all started in 1 GMU in Col now look where it is ... so don,t do anything and it will be in most wmu in Alberta in 30 years as it has spread all ready ..

if we don,t make some hard choices as in Europe then it will spread as in the USA and we should be sending our cost of controling bills to the USA Testing Facality as posted it most likely came from Scrappies pen and jumped spieces to that mule deer then poor controls boots/dirt etc left the facility

most of this info is posted in reports i posted

keeping a bait ban is the Only choice for Alberta

Food for Thought

David

[ishootbambi]

david, i spoke with trent bollinger yesterday. he seems like a level headed guy, and as a hunter i think he sees this issue from more sides than some others do deemed experts. i took a lot of notes and will make a full report when i calm down.

i need to calm down because i spoke with a cwd expert here in alberta today....and let me say for now, im less impressed with what i heard today than what i heard the last time i spoke with this individual about 4 years ago. i have managed to avoid the penalty box on this forum by steeping back form the keyboard when something really bothers me. it doesnt happen as often as some might think....but right now im pretty fired up. ill report when i can relax a bit....

dale

[bobbypetrolia]

I posted my personal thoughts on this topic, during the early stages, then sat back and enjoyed the ongoing conversation, with no intentions of posting again, until I read this:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Without a vaccination...nope....haven't heard anyone say anything different. We can take steps, however, to reduce its infection rate and and spread, like preventing baiting.

Figure out how many times a 6' circle goes into a 1/4 section and tell me again how farm fields are worse. It's not uncommon to have 40-50 deer visit a bait site in a day.......

Not true. 40-50 deer at a bait site would be VERY uncommon.

Originally Posted by bobbypetrolia

I posted my personal thoughts on this topic, during the early stages, then sat back and enjoyed the ongoing conversation, with no intentions of posting again, until I read this:



Not true. 40-50 deer at a bait site would be VERY uncommon.

I know I said I was done but I hate being called a liar.....

That's been my experience....not uncommon at all. I didn't say they were there all at once but that's how many would visit over the course of a day Seen it countless times. Not hard to sit a bait and see deer constantly on it from dawn to dusk. In fact quite common on established bait sites.

[bobbypetrolia]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That's been my experience....not uncommon at all. I didn't say they were there all at once but that's how many would visit over the course of a day Seen it countless times.

In your experience, how many baits have you sat over?

Originally Posted by bobbypetrolia

In your experience, how many baits have you sat over?

I don't know but I'm sure I've got 60 or 70 full days of sitting experience.

[bobbypetrolia]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I don't know but I'm sure I've got 60 or 70 full days of sitting experience.

So are these sitting experiences with outfitters or just personal bait sites?

Oh, and BTW, I didn't call you a liar. You should re read your signature.