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  #31  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
I have Muslim friends. How about you chat with Muslims before you assume they all believe is hate and violence before you suggest any derrière speak.
You assume much.
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  #32  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:01 PM
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2 posts in and you have him figured out already.

Sundance doesn't realize that not all Muslims are equal. In his world, Mujahideen doesn't exist.
Again. You don't seem to listen...just react poorly.

There are fanatics all around regardless of religious, animal rights, global warming, abortion, indigenous rights etc...

What is true they are fanatics and DONT represent the majority.

They incite and hope idiots on the other side fall for it and inflame and create nasty feedback loop trapping other innocents.

No.. I stand against anyone who states all Muslims are evil and that attacking innocent worshippers is right. Yes I stand against that loudly.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:01 PM
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You assume much.
Not assume. Fact.
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  #34  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:02 PM
CorahsDad CorahsDad is offline
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I am not a Muslim myself, but I have read some of their scriptures to give them a fair chance. (If anyone has a shred of intellectual honesty, you should do the same.)

In my opinion, a "true follower" of Islam should do almost exactly the opposite of what Sundancefisher thinks they should do, namely:
* They should treat all non-believers as enemies
* They should never befriend or ally with non-believers
* They should always support fellow believers over non-believers
* They should be willing to give their lives to support or fight for the cause of Allah against the non-believers

Here is some Islamic scripture - section 3 of the Qur'an - to support my thesis. Emphasis added.

Quote:
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

1. Alif, Lam, Meem.

2. Allah, there is no god but He, the Living, the Eternal.

3. He sent down to you the Book with the Truth, confirming what came before it; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.

4. Aforetime, as guidance for mankind; and He sent down the Criterion. Those who have rejected Allah’s signs will have a severe punishment. Allah is Mighty, Able to take revenge.

5. Nothing is hidden from Allah, on earth or in the heaven.

6. It is He who forms you in the wombs as He wills. There is no god except He, the Almighty, the Wise.

7. It is He who revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are definitive; they are the foundation of the Book, and others are unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they follow the unspecific part, seeking dissent, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none knows its interpretation except Allah and those firmly rooted in knowledge say, “We believe in it; all is from our Lord.” But none recollects except those with understanding.

8. “Our Lord, do not cause our hearts to swerve after You have guided us, and bestow on us mercy from Your presence; You are the Giver.”

9. “Our Lord, You will gather the people for a Day in which there is no doubt.” Allah will never break His promise.

10. As for those who disbelieve, neither their wealth nor their children will avail them anything against Allah. These will be fuel for the Fire.

11. Like the behavior of Pharaoh’s people and those before them. They rejected Our signs, so Allah seized them for their sins. Allah is Strict in retribution.

12. Say to those who disbelieve, “You will be defeated, and rounded up into Hell—an awful resting-place.”

13. There was a sign for you in the two parties that met. One party fighting in the way of Allah, and the other was disbelieving. They saw them with their own eyes twice their number. But Allah supports with His help whomever He wills. In that is a lesson for those with insight.

14. Adorned for the people is the love of desires, such as women, and children, and piles upon piles of gold and silver, and branded horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the conveniences of the worldly life, but with Allah lies the finest resort.

15. Say, “Shall I inform you of something better than that? For those who are righteous, with their Lord are Gardens beneath which rivers flow, where they will remain forever, and purified spouses, and acceptance from Allah.” Allah is Observant of the servants.

16. Those who say, “Our Lord, we have believed, so forgive us our sins, and save us from the suffering of the Fire.”

17. The patient, and the truthful, and the reverent, and the charitable, and the seekers of forgiveness at dawn.

18. Allah bears witness that there is no god but He, as do the angels, and those endowed with knowledge—upholding justice. There is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

19. Religion with Allah is Islam. Those to whom the Scripture was given differed only after knowledge came to them, out of envy among themselves. Whoever rejects the signs of Allah—Allah is quick to take account.

20. If they argue with you, say, “I have surrendered myself to Allah, and those who follow me.” And say to those who were given the Scripture, and to the unlearned, “Have you surrendered?” If they have surrendered, then they are guided; but if they turn away, then your duty is to convey. Allah is Seeing of the servants.

21. As for those who defy Allah’s revelations, and kill the prophets unjustly, and kill those who advocate justice among the people—promise them a painful retribution.

22. They are those whose deeds will come to nothing, in this world and in the Hereafter; and they will have no saviors.

23. Have you not considered those who were given a share of the Scripture, as they were called to the Scripture of Allah to arbitrate between them; then some of them turned back, and declined?

24. That is because they said, “The Fire will not touch us except for a limited number of days.” They have been misled in their religion by the lies they fabricated.

25. How about when We gather them for a Day in which there is no doubt, and each soul will be paid in full for what it has earned, and they will not be wronged?

26. Say, “O Allah, Owner of Sovereignty. You grant sovereignty to whom You will, and You strip sovereignty from whom you will. You honor whom you will, and You humiliate whom you will. In Your hand is all goodness. You are Capable of all things.”

27. “You merge the night into the day, and You merge the day into the night; and you bring the living out of the dead, and You bring the dead out of the living; and You provide for whom you will without measure.”

28. Believers are not to take disbelievers for friends instead of believers. Whoever does that has nothing to do with Allah, unless it is to protect your own selves against them. Allah warns you to beware of Him. To Allah is the destiny.

29. Say, “Whether you conceal what is in your hearts, or disclose it, Allah knows it.” He knows everything in the heavens and the earth. Allah is Powerful over everything.

30. On the Day when every soul finds all the good it has done presented. And as for the evil it has done, it will wish there were a great distance between them. Allah cautions you of Himself. Allah is Kind towards the servants.

31. Say, “If you love Allah, then follow me, and Allah will love you, and will forgive you your sins.” Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

32. Say, “Obey Allah and the Messenger.” But if they turn away—Allah does not love the faithless.

33. Allah chose Adam, and Noah, and the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran, over all mankind.

34. Offspring one of the other. Allah is Hearer and Knower.

35. The wife of Imran said, “My Lord, I have vowed to You what is in my womb, dedicated, so accept from me; You are the Hearer and Knower.”

36. And when she delivered her, she said, “My Lord, I have delivered a female,” and Allah was well aware of what she has delivered, “and the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and have commended her and her descendants to Your protection, from Satan the outcast.”

37. Her Lord accepted her with a gracious reception, and brought her a beautiful upbringing, and entrusted her to the care of Zechariah. Whenever Zechariah entered upon her in the sanctuary, he found her with provision. He said, “O Mary, where did you get this from?” She said, “It is from Allah; Allah provides to whom He wills without reckoning.”

38. Thereupon Zechariah prayed to his Lord; he said, “My Lord, bestow on me good offspring from Your presence; You are the Hearer of Prayers.”

39. Then the angels called out to him, as he stood praying in the sanctuary: “Allah gives you good news of John; confirming a Word from Allah, and honorable, and moral, and a prophet; one of the upright.”

40. He said, “My Lord, how will I have a son, when old age has overtaken me, and my wife is barren?” He said, “Even so, Allah does whatever He wills.”

41. He said, “My Lord, give me a sign.” He said, “Your sign is that you shall not speak to the people for three days, except by gestures. And remember your Lord much, and praise in the evening and the morning.”

42. The angels said, “O Mary, Allah has chosen you, and has purified you. He has chosen you over all the women of the world.

43. “O Mary, be devoted to your Lord, and bow down, and kneel with those who kneel.”

44. These are accounts from the Unseen, which We reveal to you. You were not with them when they cast their lots as to which of them would take charge of Mary; nor were you with them as they quarreled.

45. The Angels said, “O Mary, Allah gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, well-esteemed in this world and the next, and one of the nearest.

46. He will speak to the people from the crib, and in adulthood, and will be one of the righteous.”

47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child, when no man has touched me?” He said, “It will be so. Allah creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.”

48. And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel.

49. A messenger to the Children of Israel: “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you out of clay the figure of a bird; then I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave. And I heal the blind and the leprous, and I revive the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I inform you concerning what you eat, and what you store in your homes. In that is a sign for you, if you are believers.”

50. “And verifying what lies before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear Allah, and obey me.”

51. “Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”

52. When Jesus sensed disbelief on their part, he said, “Who are my allies towards Allah?” The disciples said, “We are Allah’s allies; we have believed in Allah, and bear witness that we submit.”

53. “Our Lord, we have believed in what You have revealed, and we have followed the Messenger, so count us among the witnesses.”

54. They planned, and Allah planned; but Allah is the Best of planners.

55. Allah said, “O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return; then I will judge between you regarding what you were disputing.

56. As for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment, in this world and the next, and they will have no helpers.

57. And as for those who believe and do good works, He will give them their rewards in full. Allah does not love the unjust.”

58. This is what We recite to you of the Verses and the Wise Reminder.

59. The likeness of Jesus in Allah’s sight is that of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him, “Be,” and he was.

60. The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.

61. And if anyone disputes with you about him, after the knowledge that has come to you, say, “Come, let us call our children and your children, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, and let us invoke Allah’s curse on the liars.”

62. This is the narrative of truth: there is no god but Allah. Allah is the Mighty, the Wise.

63. But if they turn away—Allah knows the corrupt.

64. Say, “O People of the Book, come to terms common between us and you: that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate nothing with Him, and that none of us takes others as lords besides Allah.” And if they turn away, say, “Bear witness that we have submitted.”

65. O People of the Book! Why do you argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed until after him? Will you not reason?

66. Here you are—you argue about things you know, but why do you argue about things you do not know? Allah knows, and you do not know.

67. Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a Monotheist, a Muslim. And he was not of the Polytheists.

68. The people most deserving of Abraham are those who followed him, and this prophet, and those who believe. Allah is the Guardian of the believers.

69. A party of the People of the Book would love to lead you astray, but they only lead themselves astray, and they do not realize it.

70. O People of the Book! Why do you reject the revelations of Allah, even as you witness?

71. O People of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with falsehood, and knowingly conceal the truth?

72. Some of the People of the Book say, “Believe in what was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day, and reject it at its end, so that they may return.”

73. And trust none except those who follow your religion.” Say, “Guidance is Allah’s guidance. If someone is given the like of what you were given, or they argue with you before your Lord, say, “All grace is in Allah’s hand; He gives it to whomever He wills.” Allah is Bounteous and Knowing.

74. He specifies His mercy for whomever He wills. Allah is Possessor of Sublime Grace.

75. Among the People of the Book is he, who, if you entrust him with a heap of gold, he will give it back to you. And among them is he, who, if you entrust him with a single coin, he will not give it back to you, unless you keep after him. That is because they say, “We are under no obligation towards the gentiles.” They tell lies about Allah, and they know it.

76. Indeed, whoever fulfills his commitments and maintains piety—Allah loves the pious.

77. Those who exchange the covenant of Allah, and their vows, for a small price, will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them, nor will He look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. They will have a painful punishment.

78. And among them are those who twist the Scripture with their tongues, that you may think it from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say, “It is from Allah,” when it is not from Allah. They tell lies and attribute them to Allah, knowingly.

79. No person to whom Allah has given the Scripture, and wisdom, and prophethood would ever say to the people, “Be my worshipers rather than Allah’s.” Rather, “Be people of the Lord, according to the Scripture you teach, and the teachings you learn.”

80. Nor would he command you to take the angels and the prophets as lords. Would he command you to infidelity after you have submitted?

81. Allah received the covenant of the prophets, “Inasmuch as I have given you of scripture and wisdom; should a messenger come to you verifying what you have, you shall believe in him, and support him.” He said, “Do you affirm My covenant and take it upon yourselves?” They said, “We affirm it.” He said, “Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.”

82. Whoever turns away after that—these are the deceitful.

83. Do they desire other than the religion of Allah, when to Him has submitted everything in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned?

84. Say, “We believe in Allah, and in what was revealed to us; and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit.”

85. Whoever seeks other than Islam as a religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

86. [How will Allah guide a people who disbelieved after having believed, and had witnessed that the Messenger is true, and the clear proofs had come to them? Allah does not guide the unjust people.

87. Those—their penalty is that upon them falls the curse of Allah, and of the angels, and of all mankind.

88. Remaining in it eternally, without their punishment being eased from them, and without being reprieved.

89. Except those who repent afterwards, and reform; for Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

90. As for those who disbelieve after having believed, then plunge deeper into disbelief, their repentance will not be accepted; these are the lost.

91. As for those who disbelieve and die disbelievers, even the earth full of gold would not be accepted from any of them, were he to offer it for ransom. These will have a painful torment, and will have no saviors.

92. You will not attain virtuous conduct until you give of what you cherish. Whatever you give away, Allah is aware of it.

93. All food was permissible to the Children of Israel, except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, “Bring the Torah, and read it, if you are truthful.”

94. Whoever forges lies about Allah after that—these are the unjust.

95. Say, “Allah has spoken the truth, so follow the religion of Abraham the Monotheist; he was not a Pagan.”

96. The first house established for mankind is the one at Bekka; blessed, and guidance for all people.

97. In it are evident signs; the Station of Abraham. Whoever enters it attains security. Pilgrimage to the House is a duty to Allah for all who can make the journey. But as for those who refuse—Allah is Independent of the worlds.

98. Say, “O People of the Scripture, why do you reject the Revelations of Allah, when Allah witnesses what you do?”

99. Say, “O People of the Scripture, why do you hinder from Allah’s path those who believe, seeking to distort it, even though you are witnesses? Allah is not unaware of what you do.”

100. O you who believe! If you obey a party of those who were given the Scripture, they will turn you, after your belief, into disbelievers.

101. And how could you disbelieve, when Allah’s revelations are being recited to you, and among you is His Messenger? Whoever cleaves to Allah has been guided to a straight path.

102. O you who believe! Revere Allah with due reverence, and do not die except as Muslims.

103. And hold fast to the rope of Allah, altogether, and do not become divided. And remember Allah’s blessings upon you; how you were enemies, and He reconciled your hearts, and by His grace you became brethren. And you were on the brink of a pit of fire, and He saved you from it. Allah thus clarifies His revelations for you, so that you may be guided.

104. And let there be among you a community calling to virtue, and advocating righteousness, and deterring from evil. These are the successful.

105. And do not be like those who separated and disputed after the clear proofs came to them; for them is a great punishment.

106. On the Day when some faces will be whitened, and some faces will be blackened. As for those whose faces are blackened: “Did you disbelieve after your belief?” Then taste the punishment for having disbelieved.

107. But as for those whose faces are whitened: they are in Allah’s mercy, remaining in it forever.

108. These are the revelations of Allah. We recite them to you in truth. Allah desires no injustice for mankind.

109. To Allah belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth, and to Allah all events are referred.

110. You are the best community that ever emerged for humanity: you advocate what is moral, and forbid what is immoral, and believe in Allah. Had the People of the Scripture believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are the believers, but most of them are sinners.

111. They will do you no harm, beyond insulting you. And if they fight you, they will turn around and flee, then they will not be helped.

112. They shall be humiliated wherever they are encountered, except through a rope from Allah, and a rope from the people; and they incurred wrath from Allah, and were stricken with misery. That is because they rejected Allah’s revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly. That is because they rebelled and committed aggression.

113. They are not alike. Among the People of the Scripture is a community that is upright; they recite Allah’s revelations throughout the night, and they prostrate themselves.

114. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and are quick to do good deeds. These are among the righteous.

115. Whatever good they do, they will not be denied it. Allah knows the righteous.

116. As for those who disbelieve, neither their possessions nor their children will avail them anything against Allah. These are the inhabitants of the Fire, abiding therein forever.

117. The parable of what they spend in this worldly life is that of a frosty wind that strikes the harvest of a people who have wronged their souls, and destroys it. Allah did not wrong them, but they wronged their own selves.

118. O you who believe! Do not befriend outsiders who never cease to wish you harm. They love to see you suffer. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their hearts conceal is worse. We have made the messages clear for you, if you understand.

119. There you are, you love them, but they do not love you, and you believe in the entire scripture. And when they meet you, they say, “We believe;” but when they are alone, they bite their fingers in rage at you. Say, “Die in your rage; Allah knows what is within the hearts.”

120. If something good happens to you, it upsets them; but if something bad befalls you, they rejoice at it. But if you persevere and maintain righteousness, their schemes will not harm you at all. Allah comprehends what they do.

121. Remember when you left your home in the morning, to assign battle-positions for the believers. Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

122. When two groups among you almost faltered, but Allah was their Protector. So in Allah let the believers put their trust.

123. Allah had given you victory at Badr, when you were weak. So fear Allah, that you may be thankful.

124. When you said to the believers, “Is it not enough for you that your Lord has reinforced you with three thousand angels, sent down?”

125. It is; but if you persevere and remain cautious, and they attack you suddenly, your Lord will reinforce you with five thousand angels, well trained.

126. Allah made it but a message of hope for you, and to reassure your hearts thereby. Victory comes only from Allah the Almighty, the Wise.

127. He thus cuts off a section of those who disbelieved, or subdues them, so they retreat disappointed.

128. It is no concern of yours whether He redeems them or punishes them. They are wrongdoers.

129. To Allah belongs everything in the heavens and the earth. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.

130. O you who believe! Do not feed on usury, compounded over and over, and fear Allah, so that you may prosper.

131. And guard yourselves against the Fire that is prepared for the disbelievers.

132. And obey Allah and the Messenger, that you may obtain mercy.

133. And race towards forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden as wide as the heavens and the earth, prepared for the righteous.

134. Those who give in prosperity and adversity, and those who restrain anger, and those who forgive people. Allah loves the doers of good.

135. And those who, when they commit an indecency or wrong themselves, remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their sins—and who forgives sins except Allah? And they do not persist in their wrongdoing while they know.

136. Those—their reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. How excellent is the reward of the workers.

137. Many societies have passed away before you. So travel the earth and note the fate of the deniers.

138. This is a proclamation to humanity, and guidance, and advice for the righteous.

139. And do not waver, nor feel remorse. You are the superior ones, if you are believers.

140. If a wound afflicts you, a similar wound has afflicted the others. Such days We alternate between the people, that Allah may know those who believe, and take martyrs from among you. Allah does not love the evildoers.

141. So that Allah may prove those who believe, and eliminate the disbelievers.

142. Or do you expect to enter Paradise, before Allah has distinguished those among you who strive, and before He has distinguished the steadfast?

143. You used to wish for death before you have faced it. Now you have seen it before your own eyes.

144. Muhammad is no more than a messenger. Messengers have passed on before him. If he dies or gets killed, will you turn on your heels? He who turns on his heels will not harm Allah in any way. And Allah will reward the appreciative.

145. No soul can die except by Allah’s leave, at a predetermined time. Whoever desires the reward of the world, We will give him some of it; and whoever desires the reward of the Hereafter, We will give him some of it; and We will reward the appreciative.

146. How many a prophet fought alongside him numerous godly people? They did not waver for what afflicted them in the cause of Allah, nor did they weaken, nor did they give in. Allah loves those who endure.

147. Their only words were, “Our Lord, forgive us our offences, and our excesses in our conduct, and strengthen our foothold, and help us against the disbelieving people.”

148. So Allah gave them the reward of this world, and the excellent reward of the Hereafter. Allah loves the doers of good.

149. O you who believe! If you obey those who disbelieve, they will turn you back on your heels, and you end up losers.

150. Allah is your Master, and He is the Best of Helpers.

151. We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they attribute to Allah partners for which He revealed no sanction. Their lodging is the Fire. Miserable is the lodging of the evildoers.

152. Allah has fulfilled His promise to you, and you defeated them by His leave; until when you faltered, and disputed the command, and disobeyed after He had shown you what you like. Some of you want this world, and some of you want the next. Then He turned you away from them, to test you; but He pardoned you. Allah is Gracious towards the believers.

153. Remember when you fled, not caring for anyone, even though the Messenger was calling you from your rear. Then He repaid you with sorrow upon sorrow, so that you would not grieve over what you missed, or for what afflicted you. Allah is Informed of what you do.

154. Then after the setback, He sent down security upon you. Slumber overcame some of you, while others cared only for themselves, thinking of Allah thoughts that were untrue—thoughts of ignorance—saying, “Is anything up to us?” Say, “Everything is up to Allah.” They conceal within themselves what they do not reveal to you. And they say, “If it was up to us, none of us would have been killed here.” Say, “Even if you Had stayed in your homes, those destined to be killed would have marched into their death beds.” Allah thus tests what is in your minds, and purifies what is in your hearts. Allah knows what the hearts contain.

155. Those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies clashed—it was Satan who caused them to backslide, on account of some of what they have earned. But Allah has forgiven them. Allah is Forgiving and Prudent.

156. [b]O you who believe! Do not be like those who disbelieved, and said of their brethren who marched in the land, or went on the offensive, “Had they stayed with us, they would not have died or been killed.”[b] So that Allah may make it a cause of regret in their hearts. Allah gives life and causes death. Allah is Seeing of what you do.

157. If you are killed in the cause of Allah, or die—forgiveness and mercy from Allah are better than what they hoard.

158. If you die, or are killed—to Allah you will be gathered up.

159. It is by of grace from Allah that you were gentle with them. Had you been harsh, hardhearted, they would have dispersed from around you. So pardon them, and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them in the conduct of affairs. And when you make a decision, put your trust in Allah; Allah loves the trusting.

160. If Allah supports you, there is none who can overcome you. But if He fails you, who is there to help you after Him? So in Allah let the believers put their trust.

161. It is not for a prophet to act dishonestly. Whoever acts dishonestly will bring his dishonesty on the Day of Resurrection. Then every soul will be paid in full for what it has earned, and they will not be wronged.

162. Is someone who pursues Allah's approval the same as someone who incurs Allah's wrath and his refuge is Hell—the miserable destination?

163. They have different ranks with Allah, and Allah is Seeing of what they do.

164. Allah has blessed the believers, as He raised up among them a messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His revelations, and purifies them, and teaches them the Scripture and wisdom; although before that they were in evident error.

165. And when a calamity befell you, even after you had inflicted twice as much, you said, “How is this?” Say, “It is from your own selves.” Allah is Able to do all things.

166. What befell you on the day the two armies clashed was with Allah’s permission; that He may know the believers.

167. And that He may know the hypocrites. And it was said to them, “Come, fight in the cause of Allah, or contribute.” They said, “If we knew how to fight, we would have followed you.” On that day they were closer to infidelity than they were to faith. They say with their mouths what is not in their hearts; but Allah knows what they hide.

168. Those who said of their brethren, as they stayed behind, “Had they obeyed us, they would not have been killed.” Say, “Then avert death from yourselves, if you are truthful.”

169. Do not consider those killed in the cause of Allah as dead. In fact, they are alive, at their Lord, well provided for.

170. Delighting in what Allah has given them out of His grace, and happy for those who have not yet joined them; that they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

171. They rejoice in grace from Allah, and bounty, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the faithful.

172. Those who responded to Allah and the Messenger, despite the persecution they had suffered. For the virtuous and the pious among them is a great reward.

173. Those to whom the people have said, “The people have mobilized against you, so fear them.” But this only increased them in faith, and they said, “Allah is enough for us; He is the Excellent Protector.”

174. So they came back with grace from Allah, and bounty, and no harm having touched them. They pursued what pleases Allah. Allah possesses immense grace.

175. That is only Satan frightening his partisans; so do not fear them, but fear Me, if you are believers.

176. And do not be saddened by those who rush into disbelief. They will not harm Allah in the least. Allah desires to give them no share in the Hereafter. A terrible torment awaits them.

177. Those who exchange blasphemy for faith will not harm Allah in the least. A painful torment awaits them.

178. Those who disbelieve should not assume that We respite them for their own good. In fact, We only respite them so that they may increase in sinfulness. A humiliating torment awaits them.

179. Allah will not leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the wicked from the sincere. Nor will Allah inform you of the future, but Allah elects from among His messengers whom He wills. So believe in Allah and His messengers. If you believe and practice piety, you will have a splendid reward.

180. Those who withhold what Allah has given them of his bounty should not assume that is good for them. In fact, it is bad for them. They will be encircled by their hoardings on the Day of Resurrection. To Allah belongs the inheritance of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is well acquainted with what you do.

181. Allah has heard the statement of those who said, “Allah is poor, and we are rich.” We will write down what they said, and their wrongful killing of the prophets; and We will say, “Taste the torment of the burning.”

182. “This is on account of what your hands have forwarded, and because Allah is not unjust towards the creatures.”

183. Those who said, “Allah has made a covenant with us, that we shall not believe in any messenger unless he brings us an offering to be consumed by fire.” Say, “Messengers have come to you before me with proofs, and with what you asked for; so why did you assassinate them, if you are truthful?”

184. If they accuse you of lying, messengers before you were accused of lying. They came with the proofs, and the Psalms, and the Illuminating Scripture.

185. Every soul will have a taste of death, and you will receive your recompense on the Day of Resurrection. Whoever is swayed from the Fire, and admitted to Paradise, has won. The life of this world is merely enjoyment of delusion.

186. You will be tested through your possessions and your persons; and you will hear from those who received the Scripture before you, and from the idol worshipers, much abuse. But if you persevere and lead a righteous life—that indeed is a mark of great determination.

187. Allah received a pledge from those who were given the Scripture: “You shall proclaim it to the people, and not conceal it.” But they disregarded it behind their backs, and exchanged it for a small price. What a miserable exchange they made.

188. Do not think that those who rejoice in what they have done, and love to be praised for what they have not done—do not think they can evade the punishment. They will have a painful punishment.

189. To Allah belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. Allah has power over all things.

190. In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, are signs for people of understanding.

191. Those who remember Allah while standing, and sitting, and on their sides; and they reflect upon the creation of the heavens and the earth: “Our Lord, You did not create this in vain, glory to You, so protect us from the punishment of the Fire.”

192. “Our Lord, whomever You commit to the Fire, You have disgraced. The wrongdoers will have no helpers.”

193. “Our Lord, we have heard a caller calling to the faith: `Believe in your Lord,' and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins, and remit our misdeeds, and make us die in the company of the virtuous.”

194. “Our Lord, and give us what You have promised us through Your messengers, and do not disgrace us on the Day of Resurrection. Surely You never break a promise.”

195. And so their Lord answered them: “I will not waste the work of any worker among you, whether male or female. You are one of another. For those who emigrated, and were expelled from their homes, and were persecuted because of Me, and fought and were killed—I will remit for them their sins, and will admit them into gardens beneath which rivers flow—a reward from Allah. With Allah is the ultimate reward.”

196. Do not be impressed by the disbelievers’ movements in the land.

197. A brief enjoyment, then their abode is Hell. What a miserable resort.

198. As for those who feared their Lord: for them will be gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever—hospitality from Allah. What Allah possesses is best for the just.

199. Among the People of the Scripture are those who believe in Allah, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They are humble before Allah, and they do not sell Allah’s revelations for a cheap price. These will have their reward with their Lord. Allah is swift in reckoning.

200. O you who believe! Be patient, and advocate patience, and be united, and revere Allah, so that you may thrive.
I challenge Sundancefisher to find Islamic scripture that says the opposite: that violence against non-believers is wrong and that "true followers" of Islam should side with non-believers in denouncing it.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:07 PM
CorahsDad CorahsDad is offline
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I have Muslim friends. How about you chat with Muslims before you assume they all believe is hate and violence before you suggest any derrière speak.
Sorry, but having an acquaintance who is Muslim does not make you an authority on Islam. I think I will take the word of the Prophet Muhammad over your supposed "Muslim friends":
Quote:
Believers are not to take disbelievers for friends instead of believers. Whoever does that has nothing to do with Allah, unless it is to protect your own selves against them.
Don't sound so friendly anymore, do they?
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:13 PM
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I am not a Muslim myself, but I have read some of their scriptures to give them a fair chance. (If anyone has a shred of intellectual honesty, you should do the same.)

In my opinion, a "true follower" of Islam should do almost exactly the opposite of what Sundancefisher thinks they should do, namely:
* They should treat all non-believers as enemies
* They should never befriend or ally with non-believers
* They should always support fellow believers over non-believers
* They should be willing to give their lives to support or fight for the cause of Allah against the non-believers

Here is some Islamic scripture - section 3 of the Qur'an - to support my thesis. Emphasis added.


I challenge Sundancefisher to find Islamic scripture that says the opposite: that violence against non-believers is wrong and that "true followers" of Islam should side with non-believers in denouncing it.
You're not Muslim. Yet you purport to interpret the Koran.

This never goes anywhere because someone who hates Christianity can turn the same tales into a fight.

There are many different interpretations in all religions and three key Muslim groups. Fanatics are fanatics regardless of what the hide behind.

How about take your self to a mosque. Head in an ask an imam these questions and get the actual real interpretation and report back on facts versus anti Muslim internet sites.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:15 PM
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Reverse terrorism?
That implies there is something called forward terrorism.
Terrorism is terrorism.
It's all ugly, bad, hateful, evil, nasty and cowardly.
Yup.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:20 PM
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Link to interpretations.

http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/28/

Just a few interpretations. Remember translated from one language as well as a different time.

Remember crusades? Times change.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:28 PM
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Not assume. Fact.
Was not fact until corenfather stated he was not Muslim. After your assumption.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:32 PM
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Link to interpretations.

http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/28/

Just a few interpretations. Remember translated from one language as well as a different time.
Out of all of those "interpretations" (translations?), is there a single one that you feel contradicts me or does not say precisely that Muslims should not befriend non-believers?

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Remember crusades? Times change.
This is getting cringeworthy. You're so obviously out of your depth here, now you're bringing up the single event in the history of Christianity vs. Islam that you're aware of. Although I doubt you know how many crusades there were, why they were called, or where they were fought! You should really go read a history book instead of spewing this crap. Learn something, then come back and you'll have something worth writing. Learn about the Romans, the Byzantines, the Persians. Who did Muhammad wage war against and in what way? For how many centuries were large parts of the Mediterranean under Islamic control? Who were the famous European rulers who stopped the Muslims from taking over? Where did Islam start, and how did it spread throughout the Middle East and North Africa?
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:33 PM
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More innocent people killed because of stupid reasons.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:46 PM
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You're not Muslim. Yet you purport to interpret the Koran.
I reject the supernatual supposition that being a Muslim gives one a special ability to understand that Qur'an and that non-believers cannot understand it (ie. that you have to believe in something to be able to understand it).

I consider myself very capable of understanding the Qur'an (and much more difficult texts).

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
This never goes anywhere because someone who hates Christianity can turn the same tales into a fight.
Wrong. It never goes anywhere because you presumably keep making the same fallacious arguments you've made with me over and over again. You are probably just here to run around in circles and try to muddy the waters, not to engage in an honest and serious discussion.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
There are many different interpretations and three key Muslim groups.

How about take your self to a mosque. Head in an ask an imam these questions and get the actual real interpretation and report back on facts versus anti Muslim internet sites.
When I want to understand Kant I read Kant. Maybe you need help comprehending basic sentences like "Believers are not to take disbelievers as friends", but I would think anyone with about a grade 9 English level should be able to handle it.

Last edited by CorahsDad; 06-19-2017 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:05 PM
Heyupduck Heyupduck is offline
 
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Oh really, give me a break....
The bible is no better..
Religion.....

There is a thread about a found puppy on this forum, I opened it half expecting to see the thread had gone sideways ending in insults..a few people on this forum drive me nuts, and it's time for another self imposed exile from the negativity and hate

1) I know, I know, I won't let the door hit my ass on the way out
2) If there are any Muslims reading this please do not judge Albertans by what you read on this forum.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:14 PM
CorahsDad CorahsDad is offline
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Oh really, give me a break....
The bible is no better..
No one claimed that the Bible was better. The Bible is not part of this discussion at all. Why would you even mention it?

"Islam says XXX..."

"BUT THE BIBLE!!!"

Not an argument. Giant deflection / red herring.

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Originally Posted by Heyupduck View Post
Religion.....
Are you insinuating that Buddhism should also be lumped in there with Christianity and Islam?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyupduck View Post
There is a thread about a found puppy on this forum, I opened it half expecting to see the thread had gone sideways ending in insults..a few people on this forum drive me nuts, and it's time for another self imposed exile from the negativity and hate
I think you should stick to threads about puppies. I'm not saying this to be insulting, but your intellectual capacity probably doesn't extend much further. I don't butt in on threads about Astrophysics. Especially not to whine about my not understanding it and proclaim that I'm taking a self-imposed exile. Just do it, we don't care or want to hear about it. There is no need for "negativity and hate" in this thread if people like you would just stay out....
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CorahsDad View Post
I reject the supernatual supposition that being a Muslim gives one a special ability to understand that Qur'an and that non-believers cannot understand it (ie. that you have to believe in something to be able to understand it).

I consider myself very capable of understanding the Qur'an (and much more difficult texts).


Wrong. It never goes anywhere because you presumably keep making the same fallacious arguments you've made with me over and over again. You are probably just here to run around in circles and try to muddy the waters, not to engage in an honest and serious discussion.


When I want to understand Kant I read Kant. Maybe you need help comprehending basic sentences like "Believers are not to take disbelievers as friends", but I would think anyone with about a grade 9 English level should be able to handle it.
As an expert have you talked with lots of Muslims? Talked with Imams?

No. Because you believe in hate. Big internet reader. I stand against your hate. I always will. So no point in arguing with someone unwilling to reason.

You do realize your quote above is a passage...interpreted into English. You realize there is a difference between modern day moderate muslims and just like Christians.

You realize there is a newer religion that is based upon a version of Christianity that also is very cloistered. That kids predominately play with other kids. You realize Catholic schools are in part based so that catholic kids play predominately and make friends predominantly with other catholic kids. So stating an interpreted passage that teaches Muslims should hang with Muslims is not unique.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:27 PM
CorahsDad CorahsDad is offline
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No. Because you believe in hate. Big internet reader. I stand against your hate. I always will. So no point in arguing with someone unwilling to reason.
You're degenerating into a babbling SJW now. What does that even mean, that I "believe in hate"? That I believe hate exists in the world? I suppose so.

Do you know who else believes in hate?
Quote:
O you who believe! Do not befriend outsiders who never cease to wish you harm. They love to see you suffer. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their hearts conceal is worse. We have made the messages clear for you, if you understand.
I am certainly not spreading hate, if that's what you're insinuating. I'm trying to have a very honest and fact-based discussion about where the loyalties of "true" Muslims ought to lie. You're the one bringing emotions into this.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
You do realize your quote above is a passage...interpreted into English.
The word you're looking for is "translated", not interpreted. And yes I realize that. So what? Are you challenging the accuracy of the translation? Find me a better one, if so. You linked dozens of translations of a single passage above and they all said essentially the same thing. All of these translations are done by Muslim scholars and there is not much difference between them. I don't see your point in pointing it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
You realize there is a newer religion that is based upon a version of Christianity that also is very cloistered. That kids predominately play with other kids. You realize Catholic schools are in part based so that catholic kids play predominately and make friends predominantly with other catholic kids. So stating an interpreted passage that teaches Muslims should hang with Muslims is not unique.
Just like the last guy, you're trying to deflect to Christianity. Christianity and the Bible are completely irrelevant to this discussion. It's just one fallacy after nothing coming from you. You still have done nothing to meet my challenge posed earlier in this thread and you have done nothing to counter my argument.
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  #47  
Old 06-19-2017, 09:37 PM
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You're degenerating into a babbling SJW now. What does that even mean, that I "believe in hate"? That I believe hate exists in the world? I suppose so.

Do you know who else believes in hate?


I am certainly not spreading hate, if that's what you're insinuating. I'm trying to have a very honest and fact-based discussion about where the loyalties of "true" Muslims ought to lie. You're the one bringing emotions into this.


The word you're looking for is "translated", not interpreted. And yes I realize that. So what? Are you challenging the accuracy of the translation? Find me a better one, if so. You linked dozens of translations of a single passage above and they all said essentially the same thing. All of these translations are done by Muslim scholars and there is not much difference between them. I don't see your point in pointing it out.


Just like the last guy, you're trying to deflect to Christianity. Christianity and the Bible are completely irrelevant to this discussion. It's just one fallacy after nothing coming from you. You still have done nothing to meet my challenge posed earlier in this thread and you have done nothing to counter my argument.
Do you know what the word wali means in Arabic?
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:41 PM
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I'll await some substance from you Sundancefisher if you're capable of it but I won't be holding my breath.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:44 PM
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I'll await some substance from you Sundancefisher if you're capable of it but I won't be holding my breath.
What does "wali" mean in Arabic?
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:45 PM
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As an expert have you talked with lots of Muslims? Talked with Imams?
Do you think you're the only one that knows people that are Muslim? You talk like they are tokens in your life, is that the case? That's the way you're coming off. I've been the token Newfie at parties, been the token heterosexual at gay parties. I don't like when people treat me like I'm something "different". Treat me like I'm a human being, all is good.


You need to open your eyes. There are migrants all over Europe right now that are Mujahideen - if you don't know what that is, I urge you to research. There are also those fleeing their own countries out of fear because the west decided to bomb the crap out of it.

There is alot of people upset at the moment. But here's Sundance with the rose coloured glasses - living securely in Canada - the expert on everything.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:52 PM
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Do you think you're the only one that knows people that are Muslim? You talk like they are tokens in your life, is that the case? That's the way you're coming off. I've been the token Newfie at parties, been the token heterosexual at gay parties. I don't like when people treat me like I'm something "different". Treat me like I'm a human being, all is good.


You need to open your eyes. There are migrants all over Europe right now that are Mujahideen - if you don't know what that is, I urge you to research. There are also those fleeing their own countries out of fear because the west decided to bomb the crap out of it.

There is alot of people upset at the moment. But here's Sundance with the rose coloured glasses - living securely in Canada - the expert on everything.
Lol.

I find interesting in one breath you state I think of Muslims as token friends and in the same post you make passive attempt to link all Muslims to mujahideen.

Vast majority of Muslims are great people. The few nasty outliers in society should be dealt with extreme measures like more MOAB's.

My point is don't paint all Muslims with the fanatical terrorist brush. The are complete opposite.

Fanatics don't represent religion. They represent power hungry people bent on attracting the most gullible and the outsiders in society. Those that threads like this tend to propagate.

Hatred of people just because they are Muslim is wrong.

Also remember culturally Middle East countries are different. Understanding and respecting tha would go a longs ways for western governments.

Obviously what was done before didn't work.

Kill the leaders and another power broker moves in. If a bad one gets in bad things happen.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:02 PM
silverdoctor silverdoctor is offline
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Lol.

I find interesting in one breath you state I think of Muslims as token friends and in the same post you make passive attempt to link all Muslims to mujahideen.

Vast majority of Muslims are great people. The few nasty outliers in society should be dealt with extreme measures like more MOAB's.

My point is don't paint all Muslims with the fanatical terrorist brush. The are complete opposite.

Fanatics don't represent religion. They represent power hungry people bent on attracting the most gullible and the outsiders in society. Those that threads like this tend to propagate.

Hatred of people just because they are Muslim is wrong.

Also remember culturally Middle East countries are different. Understanding and respecting tha would go a longs ways for western governments.

Obviously what was done before didn't work.

Kill the leaders and another power broker moves in. If a bad one gets in bad things happen.

And typical response. Million muslims in Canada, not too many issues is there - but I'm the idiot and you're the expert.

The west - mainly the USA - has created this issue. Claiming that they are trying to bring democracy to the world, yeah right. They've already admitted to creating ISIS, Al Qaeda and other factions - arming rebels over the years and fighting them now.

I wonder how your thoughts would change if Trump decided to send his air force into Canada to bomb suspected terror targets - and killing innocent civilians in the process. Would you still sit in solidarity? Hard to say it, but many have the right to be upset at "democracy".
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:40 PM
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Remember crusades? Times change.
Do you believe the Crusades were wrong? Should Christians just allowed them selves to be killed?
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:53 PM
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"Wrong. It never goes anywhere because you presumably keep making the same fallacious arguments you've made with me over and over again. You are probably just here to run around in circles and try to muddy the waters, not to engage in an honest and serious discussion."


who were you before you were banned? not to muddy those same waters as you say....
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:54 PM
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I am no expert on this matter but I can tell you this. I have had a conversation with a individual that left the Muslim faith once he got to canada. What he has told me was a real eye opener and scary. I understand it's just one individuals opinion but like I said it gave me a better prospective on the matter.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:22 PM
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"Wrong. It never goes anywhere because you presumably keep making the same fallacious arguments you've made with me over and over again. You are probably just here to run around in circles and try to muddy the waters, not to engage in an honest and serious discussion."


who were you before you were banned? not to muddy those same waters as you say....
Why don't you pm him if you honestly want an answer. Or do you want recognition for pointing out what everyone reading the thread has already concluded?
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:05 AM
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Classic example of being "part of the problem". Not "part of the solution".

Good troll post. Classic actually. Maybe one of the best this year.

Innocent people are not "they" and "them" in a normal sane person's brain.


You don't understand , when l say they l mean ISIS , when l say we l mean white folks , and them also means ISIS .

Now if ISIS can kill innocent white folk , by driving into a crowd , then this white guy is thinking OK , l,ll run my truck into some innocent Muslems , wearing black and the face coverings , and that's exactly what happened here.

Why are you attacking me , calling me a troll , and acusing me of not having a normal brain , l just stated my opinion on what happened , and you say l,m part of the problem , shake your head man.
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:25 AM
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Lol.

I find interesting in one breath you state I think of Muslims as token friends and in the same post you make passive attempt to link all Muslims to mujahideen.

Vast majority of Muslims are great people. The few nasty outliers in society should be dealt with extreme measures like more MOAB's.

My point is don't paint all Muslims with the fanatical terrorist brush. The are complete opposite.

Fanatics don't represent religion. They represent power hungry people bent on attracting the most gullible and the outsiders in society. Those that threads like this tend to propagate.

Hatred of people just because they are Muslim is wrong.

Also remember culturally Middle East countries are different. Understanding and respecting tha would go a longs ways for western governments.

Obviously what was done before didn't work.

Kill the leaders and another power broker moves in. If a bad one gets in bad things happen.


Hating people because they are white ,is wrong too , that's the reason for the revenge attack on Muslems.
lts hate of course , but its on both sides of the fence now , but started in Muslem countrys.
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:58 AM
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And typical response. Million muslims in Canada, not too many issues is there - but I'm the idiot and you're the expert.

The west - mainly the USA - has created this issue. Claiming that they are trying to bring democracy to the world, yeah right. They've already admitted to creating ISIS, Al Qaeda and other factions - arming rebels over the years and fighting them now.

I wonder how your thoughts would change if Trump decided to send his air force into Canada to bomb suspected terror targets - and killing innocent civilians in the process. Would you still sit in solidarity? Hard to say it, but many have the right to be upset at "democracy".
Huh? You make no sense
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Old 06-20-2017, 06:02 AM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigskinner View Post
You don't understand , when l say they l mean ISIS , when l say we l mean white folks , and them also means ISIS .

Now if ISIS can kill innocent white folk , by driving into a crowd , then this white guy is thinking OK , l,ll run my truck into some innocent Muslems , wearing black and the face coverings , and that's exactly what happened here.

Why are you attacking me , calling me a troll , and acusing me of not having a normal brain , l just stated my opinion on what happened , and you say l,m part of the problem , shake your head man.
When you state running into a crowd of innocent people is payback. That is wrong. Period. That guy was wrong. Condoning his behaviour is wrong. Making excuses for a wrong doesn't make a right.

And after your posts I am still shaking my head in disbelief.
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