Letter to the ministers to reduce draw wait times.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

I disagree, its like pulling a tag for a second or third preference you don't loose your points. Lots of guys pick up unsubscribed tags that wouldn't have bothered to buy one if they had to burn their points

The way things work now I understand...and don't have an issue with.

The hypothetical if unclaimed draw tags going into undersubscribed draw pools is what I disagree with....there are people who have priority built that should get first crack at a second chance.

If you are drawn on a second or third choice you lose priority in that draw...because you were successful.

LC

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

The hypothetical if unclaimed draw tags going into undersubscribed draw pools is what I disagree with....there are people who have priority built that should get first crack at a second chance.

LC

I gottcha now I agree with what you are saying.

[residentguide]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

So how many round and rounds of draws are they going to have before they are all handed out....talk about logistic nightmare!

These are all hypothetical situations but in no way should a draw that is not "claimed" be put up on the general market without a priority removal or other consequence.

LC

It is not hard at all. Everything is done by computer anyway and everybody has a email. Have it do the draw and you have x number of days to purchase or it goes to the next in line and an email is sent to new awarded. The new awarded has the right to refuse the tags and that is it.After that draws are done. On a side note this will increase people in the field and pushes success up with will lower tag numbers. So really is this a good idea? These tags should never hit the undersubscribed list as that is wrong and should never happen. The undersubscribed tags should stay as is because nothing is wrong there either.

[residentguide]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

The way things work now I understand...and don't have an issue with.

The hypothetical if unclaimed draw tags going into undersubscribed draw pools is what I disagree with....there are people who have priority built that should get first crack at a second chance.

If you are drawn on a second or third choice you lose priority in that draw...because you were successful.

LC

Exactly hypothetical. No way is any draw like this ever going to be put in undersubscribed. But if it ever did I would never waste priority on leftovers.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

I disagree, its like pulling a tag for a second or third preference you don't loose your points. Lots of guys pick up unsubscribed tags that wouldn't have bothered to buy one if they had to burn their points

Whether you draw a tag on your first, second or third preference, your priority goes to zero.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

There has been some good discussion here, personally I agree with limiting the amount of actual draws residents can apply for... The idea of "trophy" draws being limited to say 3 and maximum application total to 5 would help.

Clarifying resident status again would ease pressure.

Increase application fees marginally and using the excess to go towards increase enforcement, conservation, habitat restoration, ext would benefit all Albertans as well. Yes I understand the fees right now are collected by a third party. Increase fees would not be retained by this service provider.

I do not agree with price point of trophy tags, this would be the start to elitism which I am sure most do not want to see...

Best post in the thread.

Throw in the elimination of outfitter allocations for animals that require a resident to draw, and you have a near perfect plan IMO.

I have followed all 18 pages and the facts Most people are missing is that Alberta has an ever-increasing population and a decreasing amount of game. There is really no way to stop the growing line-up for our resources.

Forcing people to purchase their drawn tags may help, it may not. I don't believe in giant tag fees. As I said before, I am not in favour of pricing people out of opportunities.

Increasing the cost of draw applications will do nothing unless they are priced so high only a few can afford them. Again, this is wrong.
If the monies collected went directly to law enforcement I would be all for a small increase but it doesn't.

999 has nothing to do with wait times. I would love for someone to prove to me otherwise.

As I see it, there are only 3 ways to help the wait time situation:

1-Reduce the number of people applying. (see sled's quote on residency)

2-Reduce the amount of draws people can apply for. (again, see quote above)

3- Increase the amount of draws available. (remove outfitter allocations)

That's how I see it. Flame away.....

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

999 has nothing to do with wait times. I would love for someone to prove to me otherwise.

As I see it, there are only 3 ways to help the wait time situation:

1-Reduce the number of people applying. (see sled's quote on residency)

2-Reduce the amount of draws people can apply for. (again, see quote above)

3- Increase the amount of draws available. (remove outfitter allocations)

Absolutely, getting rid of the 999 option will do nothing towards lowering wait times.


1- Other than the fraudulent applications, how would you suggest we select who to eliminate from applying?


2- Isn't this another way to introduce "elitism" you mentioned a desire to avoid? Isn't this just another way to segregate those "Committed Trophy Hunters" from the rest? All Albertans should have equal access opportunities to every species of Big Game every year. The only concern I see with people applying for all species is if an individual actually draws multiple species licences in one year. Perhaps limit the number of Draw Licences that can be held in a single year, this would spread the spoils around further.

The further we restrict individual access to the draw system the greater number of "New" hunters will be influenced to join the draw by their friends and family. This is a double edged sword.


3- You forgot about the ability to dramatically increase the number of Draw Licences available simply by managing for the maximum sustainable harvest as opposed to managing for Trophies.

I knew from the first time I brought this up, all the "Trophy" hunters would be to concerned about their Antlers to even debate the premise.


Lots of misinformation becoming "fact"....
The current number of licenced hunters in Alberta is actually less than in the 1980's. There were dramatically fewer Draw hunts in this decade than now. How can that be? A large part of it is the Trophy hunting mentality and management, as mentioned above.

This current Trophy mentality has caused a larger increase in wait times than many are willing to admit. Losing this desire to restrict others so that a few can pursue their Trophy will go along way to reducing draw waits and even reintroducing General seasons.

[CBintheNorth]

.

[CBintheNorth]

WB, you obviously do not do your best reading at night. Perhaps you should read both posts again, mine and the one I quoted
As for facts, perhaps explain to me why moose is no longer general. Surely it isn't to manage trophy quality?

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Absolutely, getting rid of the 999 option will do nothing towards lowering wait times.


1- Other than the fraudulent applications, how would you suggest we select who to eliminate from applying?


2- Isn't this another way to introduce "elitism" you mentioned a desire to avoid? Isn't this just another way to segregate those "Committed Trophy Hunters" from the rest? All Albertans should have equal access opportunities to every species of Big Game every year. The only concern I see with people applying for all species is if an individual actually draws multiple species licences in one year. Perhaps limit the number of Draw Licences that can be held in a single year, this would spread the spoils around further.

The further we restrict individual access to the draw system the greater number of "New" hunters will be influenced to join the draw by their friends and family. This is a double edged sword.


3- You forgot about the ability to dramatically increase the number of Draw Licences available simply by managing for the maximum sustainable harvest as opposed to managing for Trophies.

I knew from the first time I brought this up, all the "Trophy" hunters would be to concerned about their Antlers to even debate the premise.


Lots of misinformation becoming "fact"....
The current number of licenced hunters in Alberta is actually less than in the 1980's. There were dramatically fewer Draw hunts in this decade than now. How can that be? A large part of it is the Trophy hunting mentality and management, as mentioned above.

This current Trophy mentality has caused a larger increase in wait times than many are willing to admit. Losing this desire to restrict others so that a few can pursue their Trophy will go along way to reducing draw waits and even reintroducing General seasons.

I don't think turning ever deer in the province into a "meat buck" is the solution either. There needs to be a balance between trophy quality and access by all. Isn't pushing trophy hunters out of the province a form of "elitism" as well saying meat hunters are more important than trophy hunters?

I personally won't shoot something I know is small and prefer to go home empty handed or with a doe than to kill the first thing with antlers. The old don't make the winter the younger bucks do. Just getting out is good enough for me I don't need to make a kill every time or ever year.

We should be relying on science to dictate the appropriate numbers and age structure to maximize the resource. JMO

[Speckle55]

Food for Thought

David

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Food for Thought

David

Loud, slow clap. Bravo sir.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

I don't think turning ever deer in the province into a "meat buck" is the solution either. There needs to be a balance between trophy quality and access by all. Isn't pushing trophy hunters out of the province a form of "elitism" as well saying meat hunters are more important than trophy hunters?

I personally won't shoot something I know is small and prefer to go home empty handed or with a doe than to kill the first thing with antlers. The old don't make the winter the younger bucks do. Just getting out is good enough for me I don't need to make a kill every time or ever year.

We should be relying on science to dictate the appropriate numbers and age structure to maximize the resource. JMO

"I don't think turning ever deer in the province into a "meat buck" is the solution either."

I never advocated that we do, and I am against this concept anyways, not for "trophy" reasons but for the social structure requirements for these herds. There needs to be a full age range of animals in the population.



"We should be relying on science to dictate the appropriate numbers and age structure to maximize the resource. "

That's exactly what I suggested. Let's stop putting more wmus on highly restrictive harvest levels of 5% and less due to the lobbying of Outfitters and Trophy hunters within certain AGMAG members, and get back to the proven 10% levels that offer higher harvest levels while maintaining a full age structure to the herd.

[residentguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

"I don't think turning ever deer in the province into a "meat buck" is the solution either."

I never advocated that we do, and I am against this concept anyways, not for "trophy" reasons but for the social structure requirements for these herds. There needs to be a full age range of animals in the population.



"We should be relying on science to dictate the appropriate numbers and age structure to maximize the resource. "

That's exactly what I suggested. Let's stop putting more wmus on highly restrictive harvest levels of 5% and less due to the lobbying of Outfitters and Trophy hunters within certain AGMAG members, and get back to the proven 10% levels that offer higher harvest levels while maintaining a full age structure to the herd.

last time I checked all the list of the biologists names yours was not there. So please feel free to tell us exactly how they do there job and every factor to determine tag numbers. That is right you only know a portion of the info. Every biologist I have talked to says the biggest problem they have is lack of actual numbers in zones do to no money and very poor statistic numbers do to lack of hunter surveys being done. So as for how they do it they give out less tags do to not having accurate numbers. As for having friends at AGMAG that is the funniest thing I have ever herd as the people that are there represent group of people (members of these groups). So please fill us in on your theory. Actually where is the proof of this happening as people would love to get new representation if such a thing was going on. Please quit trying to back pedal out of your previous comments of how better it would be if you could slaughter our pathetic herds cause you feel it is your right to do so because you are against trophy hunting other than for yourself. Way more people that just you in this province and they don't have a giant "Trophy" elk like the one you shot and had your picture in Alberta outdoorsmen magazine a while back. How many Trophy animals do you have? I bet it is more than just an elk. I have a few words for this but I feel it is best to leave it at that.

[jrileyw]

I agree with increased fees for applications and licenses. But
I believe that the only way to decrease wait times is to put
all species and WMUs on a draw system. The system is set up
as a limited draw and general. Yes there will always be areas
that have increased usage pressure. That's the way it happens
all across North America. Just because it is a draw doesn't limit
your opportunity, it increases your opportunity.

[packhuntr]

All this talk about "trophies" is just unbelievably embarrassing. When some of our AO "stud hands" lol, talk like this it removes all credibility, and its been gone for awhile. Unfortunately it might appear to everyone on the rule making side of this stuff, that we hunters are all complete idiots that SHOULD be told what direction our resources will be taken in to the future. When we start talking about healthy herd dynamics, we are on track and thinking about the future. Lets grow a brain here and get with the program.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

All this talk about "trophies" is just unbelievably embarrassing. When some of our AO "stud hands" lol, talk like this it removes all credibility, and its been gone for awhile.

...lol

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

...lol

Perfect example of whats wrong here.

[retten]

You are not eligible to apply for draws in Alberta, until you have
been a proven resident( not just employed here) of Alberta for 5 years.

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by retten

You are not eligible to apply for draws in Alberta, until you have
been a proven resident( not just employed here) of Alberta for 5 years.

shud be 10 years at least

[Pathfinder76]

You should at least have filed a tax return as an alberta resident.

[RayM77]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned( sorry if I missed it) is turning high priority draws into archery of primitive weapon areas. For example in a zone like 446 they give out 6 sheep tags. If this was an archery zone they could probably give out 20 tags and have the same harvest rate. Giving that many more people a chance to get out hunt and clearing out the draw system faster.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Stinkhammer

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned( sorry if I missed it) is turning high priority draws into archery of primitive weapon areas. For example in a zone like 446 they give out 6 sheep tags. If this was an archery zone they could probably give out 20 tags and have the same harvest rate. Giving that many more people a chance to get out hunt and clearing out the draw system faster.

Don't agree with the just archery. Not everybody can draw a bow and would be excluding some people.

Maybe we should just make it spear and atlatl only. We could give out 100 tags then.

[RayM77]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Don't agree with the just archery. Not everybody can draw a bow and would be excluding some people.

Maybe we should just make it spear and atlatl only. We could give out 100 tags then.

I am fine with that. I believe I said primitive or Archery. That could mean spears, atlatls, bows, crossbows, or muzzle loaders. What ever is a legal tool and makes a lower harvest rate allowing for more tags to be given out.

Do you think the people that couldn't draw a bow would be able to use an atlatl?

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Stinkhammer

I am fine with that. I believe I said primitive or Archery. That could mean spears, atlatls, bows, crossbows, or muzzle loaders. What ever is a legal tool and makes a lower harvest rate allowing for more tags to be given out.

Do you think the people that couldn't draw a bow would be able to use an atlatl?

Xguns and muzzle loading rifles are not low harvest rate tools. Make em legal and some of this provinces more " competent" close range hunters will show you what some big dead sheit looks like

[RayM77]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Xguns and muzzle loading rifles are not low harvest rate tools. Make em legal and some of this provinces more " competent" close range hunters will show you what some big dead sheit looks like

I am not trying to start the old crossbow or spear debates here. My point is that more tags could be given out with weapons that yield lower success rates. This thread is about reducing draw wait times and with out a question this would do it. I'm sure if it was used in combination with some of the other ideas it could really speed things up for every one.

[antlerguy]

Originally Posted by Stinkhammer

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned( sorry if I missed it) is turning high priority draws into archery of primitive weapon areas. For example in a zone like 446 they give out 6 sheep tags. If this was an archery zone they could probably give out 20 tags and have the same harvest rate. Giving that many more people a chance to get out hunt and clearing out the draw system faster.

So let us as hunters divide even more. Do you really think excluding certain people (rifle hunters) is a good idea. Yes taking out a portion of people will help with wait times, but why should people who only rifle hunt be left out ( by the way I hunt both ways - rifle and bow).

[RayM77]

Originally Posted by antlerguy

So let us as hunters divide even more. Do you really think excluding certain people (rifle hunters) is a good idea. Yes taking out a portion of people will help with wait times, but why should people who only rifle hunt be left out ( by the way I hunt both ways - rifle and bow).

This wouldn't decrease times by excluding people it would decrease times by allowing for more tags. This should divide hunters as much as the 410 sheep draw. Every hunter would be able to apply and participate in a primitive system. It would be there choice not to. I find it funny when ever harder methods of hunting could be used for conservation tools people go to the same old crutches, that it divides hunters or it's elitist. People divide hunters not weapons. I guess the bottom line is what a lot of people want is to walk 50 yards from there truck shoot a Boone and crocket ram with there rifle and get drawn the very next year and do it all over again the next year.

[alacringa]

Originally Posted by Stinkhammer

I guess the bottom line is what a lot of people want is to walk 50 yards from there truck shoot a Boone and crocket ram with there rifle and get drawn the very next year and do it all over again the next year.

That is exactly the problem. I'm all for reducing the number of people who abuse the system -- but there are things in life you have to wait for. I wanted to be able to grow a beard when I was 10, but I had to wait until I was 17 or 18. I'd like to be able to harvest a Bull Moose with my rifle in a zone near Calgary this fall, but that ain't gonna happen for quite some time. The decision that has to be made, is whether it's worth the wait. Some things are and some things aren't. There aren't enough animals out there for every hunter in the province to take a bull elk, a bull moose, a trophy ram, a trophy antelope, and a truckload of deer every year. That's why we have to wait. It's up to individual hunters to decide how long they are willing to wait, how far they are willing to travel, etc. While you're waiting, there are plenty of general tags that you can use to keep the freezer stocked.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Stinkhammer

I am fine with that. I believe I said primitive or Archery. That could mean spears, atlatls, bows, crossbows, or muzzle loaders. What ever is a legal tool and makes a lower harvest rate allowing for more tags to be given out.

Do you think the people that couldn't draw a bow would be able to use an atlatl?

not agreeing or dis-agreering that this would help wait times, but I have watched some hunting shows lately with muzzle loaders. It seems to me that the newer muzzle loaders are just as accurate as a high powered rifle, and can bring game down at quite a distance.