Frusterated with Ignorant Leaseholder

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Albertadiver

How did this turn into a discussion about farming and wheat boards?

no idea but it was bound to happen

[Sledhead71]

There could be a few more reasons not to allow access to Lease Land, like fire hazzards, which are present in the South as we speak... Or, other hunters may have gained permission prior... Never an open and shut case..

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

then fighting for whats right will benefit not only you, but all hunters in the long run.

We can thank a hunter who stood up for Public Access rights for all of us. He spent years in court, which resulted in the RECREATIONAL ACCESS REGULATION. We must stand up for our rights!

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

The noted hunters can notify him in writing of thier intent to hunt the public land, and can do so with foot access provided he's not got his animals there.

Do ALL of your communicating with a difficult Leaseholder in writing. It's the best way to protect yourself.

Originally Posted by HighWildnFree

Ive got a log running on everything from first contact with the leaseholder. Good thing work is slow right now lol

Good move.

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Yeah I get a bit sensitive when people start demanding their rights.

You must be voting for Morton. Isn't it just stupid how people will actually stand up for and demand their Rights?

Originally Posted by Findal

One of the big mis conceptions here is the "asking permission" part. If this is lease land you really don't need to "ask permission" but you do need to inform the leasor of your intent to go onto the land. If the leasor has issue for valid reason,(as agreed to by Lands office) then he can tell you that and then your plans can be changed, but it's not really about ask permission. You have already been granted permission by the province, just that there are conditions and one of them is informing the leasor, if he so desired when asked if he wanted to list his contact info or not. Other conditions are listed with his contact info and these give a good clue as to what you can expect when you talk to the leasor about access.

There are plenty of land leasors who consider it their land and try to keep people off, people who follow the rules and just want what should be. They keep access to our land and animals as if it is theirs, not just under their keeping for 5-6 months a year and want to be the one who takes from the rest of us what is ours. If one gets away with it the story will spread and make it harder for us all, wherever we may try to access land, and then everyone will have to go to the little crown land there is, maybe in your spot, and that's how we all loose.

^^^^ Read this post twice....



Public Access to PUBLIC LAND is something we ALL must stand up for.


For everyone, these are the Legislations involved and more important info.

PUBLIC LANDS ACT
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/574.cfm?pag...=9780779743100

RECREATIONAL ACCESS REGULATION
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/574.cfm?pag...=9780779748112



Public Lands Recreational Access to Agricultural Public Land Contact and Access Condition Information
Look for a Management Plan on the Agricultural Grazing Lease.
http://xnet.env.gov.ab.ca/imf/imf.jsp?site=rec_access

Land Use Management Contact List
Need to go over somebodies head, find the bosses here.
http://www.srd.alberta.ca/AboutUs/SR...t-May-2011.pdf

Land Management Area Contacts
Links to other Contacts on Sidebar
http://www.srd.alberta.ca/AboutUs/SR...aContacts.aspx



Some steps to follow.

-Read the Access Legislation.
-Find the Leaseholder's access management plan.
-COntact the leaseholder.
-RECORD IN A LOG EVERY CONTACT AND ATTEMPT!
-Do Not Ask For Permission. Tell them politely that you will be accessing the land, If they say no, ask Why. There are a few reasons that access can be legally denied.
-If Access is denied, and you intend to pursue the case, continue ALL communication with the Leaseholder, and Alberta Lands in WRITING. Email or fax.
-Contact the Lands MAnager in writing, ask for ALL responses to be returned in writing. Ask for the specific Grazing Plan for the Lease. It will say when cattle MUST be off the Public LAnd.
-If you do not get satisfactory action from the Lands Manager, and no Legitimate reason for access denial is offered, take the problem higher. Notify F&W, Your MLA, and Minister of SRD that you are accessing the Public Land for recreational purposes.
-When on the Land, Carry and Use a video camera. This is an incredibly powerful tool for making people think twice before doing something stupid. It is the best evidence if someone decides to interferre with your legal right to hunt.

HUNTING, FISHING AND TRAPPING HERITAGE ACT
http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/laws/sta...-c-h-15.5.html

Chapter H‑15.5
Preamble

WHEREAS hunting, fishing and trapping have played important roles in shaping Alberta’s social, cultural and economic heritage;
WHEREAS hunters, anglers and trappers have made important contributions to the understanding, conservation, restoration and management of Alberta’s fish and wildlife resources; and
WHEREAS the best traditions of hunting, fishing and trapping should be valued by future generations:


THEREFORE HER MAJESTY, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta, enacts as follows:

Right to hunt and fish

1(1) A person has a right to hunt, fish and trap in accordance with the law.

HighWildnFree,

Thank You for not giving up. Stay cool and safe. Enjoy the elk meat.

[KegRiver]

Thanks for being so insulting WB.

You must be voting for Morton.

Yes by all means go get your rights. You are entitled.


I am a hunter but I have no part in this crowd.

[AbAngler]

HighWildnFree, thank you for following through.

[saddleup]

Mr WB, aka cut and paste, you are a dangerous man to the outdoors, your attitude of Demand, and not ask, will definately get you denial . We attempt to teach our young hunters respect, this does not fit into that category

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by saddleup

Mr WB, aka cut and paste, you are a dangerous man to the outdoors, your attitude of Demand, and not ask, will definately get you denial . We attempt to teach our young hunters respect, this does not fit into that category

That's how them big city folk roll, It is there god given right to go where ever they want.

[Pilsner Man]

WB never said anything about going wherever he wants. But i fully agree that we should be able to access PUBLIC LAND and not allow a lease operator to assume authority beyond what his lease agreement allows for.

If it was private land then permission is a must. For a grazing lease on public land like this thread is about, not so much. Alot of you are missing this point.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by saddleup

Mr WB, aka cut and paste, you are a dangerous man to the outdoors, your attitude of Demand, and not ask, will definately get you denial . We attempt to teach our young hunters respect, this does not fit into that category

"Tell them politely that you will be accessing the land, If they say no, ask Why."

I did not say demand. There is nothing to demand. The legislation does not say "permission" is required for a reason. The legislation says to inform the Leasholder of your intent to access the Public Land following the accepted Access Management plan for that property. My list of steps is point form. Please expand the actual words YOU use to be polite and respectful at all times.

I understand and agree with your concern regarding respect. This is a two way street.

The only Public Lease land I have ever had an issue with the leasholder with my approach is a property that the Leaseholder refuses access to everyone except an Outfitter. The Leaseholder told me to go buy a tag from the outfitter if I wanted to hunt this Public Land. All eight neighboring leaseholders were happy to have me hunt on their leases. Experience tells me that my approach is not disrespectful.

Regarding the Outfitter access only Leaseholder, It was amusing how he finally said "Go ahead" when he realized I knew what the laws are and I was willing to stand up for our Public Access Rights.

[bwcweld]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

believe me I have no aspiration to be a farmer at all and I respect what farmers do and that it's a hard living sometimes, and the only thing I can talk about is personal experiences from the people I know, I have a few inlaws that run a rather large farm, they have new houses,new truck every 2 years,3 new combines and own about 3000 acres with another 2000 rented or leased, they also spend 6 months a year in arizona in their 5th wheel, so it don't seem like too bad a life to me work 6 months a year and take 6 off in the dessert with new cars/trucks/houses and equipment, maybe the government or bank own it all I don't know but seems like a good life to me

That is so un educated that its not even worth commenting on. In other words.....good for them

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by bwcweld

That is so un educated that its not even worth commenting on. In other words.....good for them

No doubt!! To think farming is making the farmers rich is downright hilarious!

[Donkey Oatey]

If you don't exercise your rights yourselves, if you don't show the government that you value those rights, eventually you will lose them.

From a Pulitzer Prize essay from 2008. http://www.pulitzer.org/archives/8302 Yes it is from the USA but it has the same bearing here. Those that do not exercise their rights, or remind the government of those rights just stand a side to watch those rights disappear.

Big thumbs up to the OP. Keep up the work. Must remind these lease holders that they do not in fact OWN this land. It comes with strings attached and one of those strings is recreational access.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

That's how them big city folk roll, It is there god given right to go where ever they want.

Ram, it is my right to hunt MY LAND!!!

This rental thing really gets under my skin. Good god, I am the OWNER.

Jamie

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

That's how them big city folk roll, It is there god given right to go where ever they want.

Wow, this thread is ripe with flawed logic..

[bwcweld]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Ram, it is my right to hunt MY LAND!!!

This rental thing really gets under my skin. Good god, I am the OWNER.

Jamie

OH WOW

[nick0danger]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

There could be a few more reasons not to allow access to Lease Land, like fire hazzards, which are present in the South as we speak... Or, other hunters may have gained permission prior... Never an open and shut case..

Think you missed the point, its public IE all access, and if there is a fire hazard, you suppose to walk on no?

[unclebuck]

With some of the attitudes exhibited thus far, I can see why you get your rear ends run out of farmers & ranchers yards. Politeness & a bit of respect(including self respect), rather than raw arrogance covers a lot of ground!!! Because "we" own Alberta Housing houses, do we have the right to boldly go to the door and demand use of the facility? I don't think so.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by unclebuck

With some of the attitudes exhibited thus far, I can see why you get your rear ends run out of farmers & ranchers yards. Politeness & a bit of respect(including self respect), rather than raw arrogance covers a lot of ground!!! Because "we" own Alberta Housing houses, do we have the right to boldly go to the door and demand use of the facility? I don't think so.

the laws are clearly started.

[Neil Waugh]

Is this you???

HighWildnFree HighWildnFree is offline

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 182
Default
Wow this sounds like a dating site lol. Ive been guiding almost ten years now, this year im planning on doing lots of hunting myself and little to no working. I hunt primarily with my bow but Ive been known to sneak the thunderstick out from time to time.

As much as I like introducing new hunters to the sport, Im looking for another experienced hunter to team up on moose and elk. I have excellent spots for both close to home. Im lookin for a guy who can handle a full day of walking, and is able to call both Elk and Moose well. Fine if yer from the city, ive got room for you to stay at my place.

Opening day is comin quick.... 2 weeks


I take it you're not inviting these new found hunter buddies of yours on this land under dispute?

[birdslayer]

Just to let everyone know, my son is a peace officer and all peace officers have jurisdiction across the whole province. It is come courtesy to let the local law enforcement know you are there.It is nice to have him with us hunting, it stops a lot of b.s. happening with the locals that think all the game is their's.Have a problem with some lease holders of my own as well in regards to obtianing permission.

[HighWildnFree]

Heh heh, ya thats me. And I wouldnt involve a hunting partner in hunting this place in a million years. Especially a new one lol.

There seems to be a misconception here that I banged on this guys door and crammed my right of access down his throat. For those who mistakenly assume this, let me set the record straight. The conversation went something like this:

Knock knock
Hi ----------, how are ya tday?
oh not so bad
Keepin busy these days? ( we work in the same industry)
Kinda slow, but enough to keep a guy outta trouble.
Good stuff. Hey Im here to talk to you about doin some bowhuntin for elk on your grazing lease.
STAY OFF MY ****IN LAND.
I wasnt talkin about the deeded land actually, its the grazing lease Im here to talk to you about.
STAY OFF MY ****IN LAND.
door slams shut.
(lightly) knock knock knock
**** OFF!!!!!!

Dont think I could have approached this any better myself.....

[KI-UTE]

You need to video this guy taking potshots at the elk. Surely the fishcops will find some way to charge this guy for being stupid with a firearm. I do believe there are potential federal laws this guy may be violating.

"Officer, I wasn't really shooting at the elk. Yes there was elk there and I was shooting in the same direction the elk were but I wasn't really hunting them"

"Oh? well sir what on earth were you doing then?"

Very easy to break firearm discharge laws wehen shooting from a road and vehicle.

Now it doesn't look good for this fellow. He is harassing wildlfe. The fishcops will get creative, they are very good at legal "entrapment" to get a conviction. They do need you to video the guy and to zoom in on his facial features, be nice to get his plate in the same video clip. Start the camera and don't stop the thing.

You also need to video this cop. Don't complain to his boss yet. Get him good and get him a lesson learned. If you don't get him with a bunch of evidence then his boss will scold him and he will get much more sneaky, cagier and nastier. Present his boss/supervisor with a long list of evidence. Make copies of everything as CBC may need some, they are in desperate need of something interesting to report on the news! Get lots of video clips of this cop harassing you so that when you go to his superiors, he gets transfered out of your face.

Another guy stated to take notes. This is called documentation. Documents are also a good form of evidence. Keep detailed notes of both nutcases.

Make note of the time, place, who what when and where. These things form solid evidence that will work for you.

If you get video of this guy/leaseguy and get enough for the fishcops to start visiting him, then you new cop buddy is going to escalate his harassment, then you can get him next.

I hate it when people abuse their priveleges, positions, and especially when they abuse a position of authority to do so.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by HighWildnFree

Keepin busy these days? ( we work in the same industry)

I thought you said you didn't know anything about the man before you knocked on his door.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood.

I thought I had read somewhere that you live in Smith. I guess maybe I assumed that since High Prairie is so far from Smith you probably didn't know the man. My mistake.

[HighWildnFree]

As expected, he moved cows onto the quarters I listed on the form I submitted. I spoke with the settlement officer this morning and hes not too enthused to pursue this act. The settlement officer knows absolutley nothing about: hunting, hunting seasons, guns, archery equipment or Elk. He was under the impression that an arrow is just as dangerous in a quarter where cows are present. I spent half an hour explaining the differences in effective range, trajectory, richochet etc, but it didnt seem to sink in.

So at the moment, there is no solid answer from SRD. Hopefully this afternoon.

I also told him that there are 2 other leased quarters ( same leaseholder) that as of this morning had no cows on them, but several Elk. I asked him to ask the leaseholder, if there are suddenly cows on the other 2, if he had any objection to me hunting on these two. The settlement officer said he couldnt ask that, and that if I wanted access to other quarters I would have to start the process over by approaching the leaseholder again. Uggghhh. I told him all that does is give the leaseholder a few days notice where to move his cows to keep the hunter out. His answer made my blood boil " it IS his land, if he dosnt want you hunting there, at the end of the day all I can do is ask him to change his mind. ". NO!!!! Its not HIS land!!!!!!! Why is this so bloody hard to understand?

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by HighWildnFree

As expected, he moved cows onto the quarters I listed on the form I submitted. I spoke with the settlement officer this morning and hes not too enthused to pursue this act. The settlement officer knows absolutley nothing about: hunting, hunting seasons, guns, archery equipment or Elk. He was under the impression that an arrow is just as dangerous in a quarter where cows are present. I spent half an hour explaining the differences in effective range, trajectory, richochet etc, but it didnt seem to sink in.

So at the moment, there is no solid answer from SRD. Hopefully this afternoon.

I also told him that there are 2 other leased quarters ( same leaseholder) that as of this morning had no cows on them, but several Elk. I asked him to ask the leaseholder, if there are suddenly cows on the other 2, if he had any objection to me hunting on these two. The settlement officer said he couldnt ask that, and that if I wanted access to other quarters I would have to start the process over by approaching the leaseholder again. Uggghhh. I told him all that does is give the leaseholder a few days notice where to move his cows to keep the hunter out. His answer made my blood boil " it IS his land, if he dosnt want you hunting there, at the end of the day all I can do is ask him to change his mind. ". NO!!!! Its not HIS land!!!!!!! Why is this so bloody hard to understand?

Well he does pay land taxes on the lease!!!!!

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Well he does pay land taxes on the lease!!!!!

I as well pay taxes, thus allowing me the use of public lands.

[AbAngler]

Originally Posted by HighWildnFree

As expected, he moved cows onto the quarters I listed on the form I submitted. I spoke with the settlement officer this morning and hes not too enthused to pursue this act.

Go over his head. He's not doing his job.

[walking buffalo]

HWF,

This is why you must communicate with the leaseholder AND Lands in writing. The phone calls will only get the situation more convoluted.

Request Lands to give you the Grazing Lease Plan for this property. It will give you information on the authorized use, cattle numbers and dates. Request access for ALL sections of the property for the whole season. Advise Lands that you will only access quarters that do not have cattle on them during the lease's allowed grazing period. Eliminate loopholes.

If the settlement officer is not helping, then take your request higher.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

I as well pay taxes, thus allowing me the use of public lands.

Best post in the thread! Well said!

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

I as well pay taxes, thus allowing me the use of public lands.

But do you pay property taxes on that specific land. I think he gets charged so much a head on the land that he is leasing.