2013 Archery Mule deer going on Draw

Originally Posted by BigRackLover

Statically speaking, we'd only need 10% .

I agree 100%

You might be surprised at the number of voluntary surveys turned in. No doubt the odd WMU could be short on responses one year but overall, the response is better than the 10% you say are needed. When you look at the trend over 6 or 7 years, I'm sure the odd WMU that was short on responses one year balances out.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I agree!

How many people in one wmu, would have falsify information to really sway the accuracy of the survey?

In several WMUs....two or three.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by BigRackLover

Better information is needed for sure.

Surveys are the answer. Statically speaking, we'd only need 10% (which is high) of the actual people that hunted each WMU to fill out a survey and we'd be done.

There are a ton of options for surveys to get 10% of each WMU. SRD needs to look at that fast!!! I mentioned it a pigeon lake open house one year and they dismissed the idea because they figured people would lie to get what they want - that's old school thinking. Surveys these days can be designed to weed out those who are purposely putting in inaccurate date.

I just can't think of why us outdoorsmen would cheat on our own surveys ... just shooting ourselves in the foot.

Well said....that has been my stance/opinion all along in this. If the data is as complete and accurate as it can be then I support the data.

It has been pointed out that in certain areas the data is incomplete and therefore potentially inaccurate.

I would like to see SRD publish the survey numbers in each of the WMU's to know what they are basing number's/results/changes off of. They can publish draw results and give numbers for that....why not these harvest surveys as well?

If I see these "tranparent" survey's then I might drink the kool-aide

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

It has been pointed out that in certain areas the data is incomplete and therefore potentially inaccurate.

LC

I've seen the data for one year in one WMU pointed out in this thread. I trust that the trend since 2003 would be looked at rather than one snap shot in time. Every stat is potentially inaccurate.....but a good statistician takes all that into account. The good thing here is that they are looking at data from several years and not just one.

[BigRackLover]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I agree 100%

You might be surprised at the number of voluntary surveys turned in. No doubt the odd WMU could be short on responses one year but overall, the response is better than the 10% you say are needed. When you look at the trend over 6 or 7 years, I'm sure the odd WMU that was short on responses one year balances out.

I can only be surprised if you tell me.

Originally Posted by BigRackLover

I can only be surprised if you tell me.

I'm still doing some digging to aceretain the exact number but from what I've gathered so far, it is definitely over 10%. My understanding is that they get about 25% response to the voluntary surveys but obviously that is not a percentage of the total hunting population but just of those surveyed but simple calculations place it above 10% for sure. Likely considerably more if you remove those from the number of total hunters that don't hunt big game as they are not surveyed.

[pottymouth]

[QUOTE=sheephunter;1506413]What would you attach the survey to? How would you get the survey to everyone? Who would compile all the extra data? Who would set up the monitoring system to ensure all surveys were completed? To say it would cost no more is just plain falacy. All of those things would cost money....IBM doesn't work for free. ESRD is under staffed now. I'm sure the printing company would want to be paid? Canada Post requires stamps on envelopes. You could make the arguement that we need to spend the money but to say it wouldn't cost anymore is outright dreaming.

Yes, they know exactly how many surveys are completed. The number might surprise you....I know it did me. Potty I appreciate your passion here but you are criticizing a system that you don't even know the numbers for. The basis of forming an informed opposition is becoming informed. That's why ESRD listened to sheep hunters.[/QUOTE

How much more would it cost to attach the survey, before applying for draws ? Seriously the software, staff and everything is already in place, it would only take a few minor changes to get it all going?

What are the numbers

Originally Posted by pottymouth

How much more would it cost to attach the survey, before applying for draws ? Seriously the software, staff and everything is already in place, it would only take a few minor changes to get it all going?

What are the numbers?

Seriously sheep, I don't have the time to chase down all the info that I need! Being a owner of multiple businesses, and a young family man, my time is expensive .

But people like yourself, who are chest deep in all this, have an obligation to help and inform the population. Whether it's by actual info, links and leads, instead sometimes I know I feel, you only answer when you want, or if the right question is posed. I get it's not your sole responsibility, but you are in a position to help hunting in Alberta , and hunters! The more knowledge people have, the better decisions and solution we all can work together to achieve!

I ask again Potty...what would you attach it to?????? Only 50% of hunters are on-line. How do you survey the remaining 50% for free????

And I'm digging for that info right now. My point is potty....you can come on here and scream that the surveys are flawed and that they are under represented but the fact is you don't know. Before criticizing something it's good to know what you are criticizing. An informed opposition can be pretty powerful......an uninformed one....well you get the point. I don't like it because it effects me is not a strong arguement but perhaps if you invested some of your expensive time, you might come up with some good arguements.

I'm all for having informed discussions........it's how we learn.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I ask again Potty...what would you attach it to?????? Only 50% of hunters are on-line. How do you survey the remaining 50% for free????

And I'm digging for that info right now. My point is potty....you can come on here and scream that the surveys are flawed and that they are under represented but the fact is you don't know. Before criticizing something it's good to know what you are criticizing. An informed opposition can be pretty powerful......an uninformed one....well you get the point. I don't like it because it effects me is not a strong arguement but perhaps if you invested some of your expensive time, you might come up with some good arguements.

I'm all for having informed discussions........

Attach it to the draw applications! Fill out the survey, before accessing your

draw applications.

50 % is A better representation than 10%.

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said I'm against it because it effects me!
Let's not play fill in the blanks here, I know you hate that game!

This effects over 100 k hunters.

I do have a good argument.....I want facts and transparency !

[BigRackLover]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

How much more would it cost to attach the survey, before applying for draws ? Seriously the software, staff and everything is already in place, it would only take a few minor changes to get it all going?

Unfortunately that should be the case, but when you're dealing with large organizations like the government, these small little tweaks balloon into long-gun registries (far fetched example). It should be simple and cheap but the government has a lot of red tape. They won't be nearly as agaile as your small businesses. it's unfortunate.

For the 50% who don't use alberta relm, have cabelas, wholesale, bass pro have a computer station with assistance for those coming in to buy hunting licenses - that'll help get the number up. Let's start now and educate the next generation on the importance of surveys.

Mandatory registration on kills should also help ... do the surveys right there on a tablet ... data goes right into the database.

There are a ton of ways to collect this data, but it will cost. The government doesn't move fast enough or think creatively enough when it comes to these types of things. It's too bad.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Attach it to the draw applications! Fill out the survey, before accessing your

draw applications.

Again Potty, I ask, what do they attach the survey to????? Draw booklets are no longer mailed out, lots of people do draw apps over the phone or at a retailer. There is nothing to attach it to in many cases. How do we get it in the hands of those that aren't on-line for free???????

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Again Potty, I ask, what do they attach the survey to????? Draw booklets are no longer mailed out, lots of people do draw apps over the phone or at a retailer. There is nothing to attach it to in many cases. How do we get it in the hands of those that aren't on-line for free???????

Again online, put a link in before the draws! At hunting stores, many already have computers, have one set up there, with someone to help facilitate ! On the phone, again have someone take the info and enter it!

I'm sure there are many hunting organizations that would love to help. I'm also sure people would object to a couple dollars hike in fees. Heck we could even attach a rifle hunting permit, if really need money! There's always solutions!

Originally Posted by BigRackLover

Unfortunately that should be the case, but when you're dealing with large organizations like the government, these small little tweaks balloon into long-gun registries (far fetched example). It should be simple and cheap but the government has a lot of red tape. They won't be nearly as agaile as your small businesses. it's unfortunate.

For the 50% who don't use alberta relm, have cabelas, wholesale, bass pro have a computer station with assistance for those coming in to buy hunting licenses - that'll help get the number up. Let's start now and educate the next generation on the importance of surveys.

Mandatory registration on kills should also help ... do the surveys right there on a tablet ... data goes right into the database.

There are a ton of ways to collect this data, but it will cost. The government doesn't move fast enough or think creatively enough when it comes to these types of things. It's too bad.

Big Rack....I'm guessing you are fairly computer savvy and live in the digital world of today as do I but a very large percentage of the hunting population isn't and getting their information isn't likely to happen without going back to the old telephone surveys. Things that seem so simple to those in the digital age are not comprehendable by many in our aging hunting population.

As for setting up surveys in stores, that would have to be done at every licence vendor or you suddenly take business away from the little guys. Imagine the cost of that. Imagine the extra staff time required in the stores helping people fill out their surveys.

I totally agree with education and getting more voluntary surveys in but mandatory surveys are not even feasible without a huge monetary investment.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Again online, put a link in before the draws! At hunting stores, many already have computers, have one set up there, with someone to help facilitate ! On the phone, again have someone take the info and enter it!

I'm sure there are many hunting organizations that would love to help. I'm also sure people would object to a couple dollars hike in fees. Heck we could even attach a rifle hunting permit, if really need money! There's always solutions!

I'm thinking you missed the part where I asked how you could accomplish this for free as you originally stated. It ain't impossible to survey everyone but it sure as heck wouldn't be free. People don't facilitate and take info and enter it for free. Remember, people's time is expensive.

[BigRackLover]

fricken BACK button, so much for computer savy.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm thinking you missed the part where I asked how you could accomplish this for free as you originally stated. It ain't impossible but it sure as heck wouldn't be free.

If I was a computer guy, I'm sure it's pretty simple, and I would offer it for free! But we deal in aviation ,how can I help?

Originally Posted by pottymouth

If I was a computer guy, I'm sure it's pretty simple, and I would offer it for free! But we deal in aviation ,how can I help?

Hey, you were the one with the idea....I'll leave it your very capable hands.

[BigRackLover]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Big Rack....I'm guessing you are fairly computer savvy and live in the digital world of today as do I but a very large percentage of the hunting population isn't and getting their information isn't likely to happen without going back to the old telephone surveys. Things that seem so simple to those in the digital age are not comprehendable by many in our aging hunting population.

As for setting up surveys in stores, that would have to be done at every licence vendor or you suddenly take business away from the little guys. Imagine the cost of that. Imagine the extra staff time required in the stores helping people fill out their surveys.

I totally agree with education and getting more voluntary surveys in but mandatory surveys are not even feasible without a huge monetary investment.

Yah good point on the litte stores, I'd thought about that but most 'old-timers' like to go in a BS in the hunting stores anyway, but it's the rural places that'll be the most challenging.

I don't but the computer savy thing. Many seniors have a touch screen smart phone and survery are simple on those devices (yes again, this costs).

I haven't done a cost comparison versus phone surveys and some online applications, so I can't really say for sure what'll cost more. Sometimes in the end, it's better to just brute force it and call 100,000 people. Perhaps a voluntary survey (or rebate off your wildlife cert) for 50% and 50% brute force with $15/hr tele-workers.

I agree Big Rack that it is possible and I also agree that more info is great....my only point and one we seem to agree on is that it would cost money....money ESRD seems awfully short on these days. Perhaps it's time to start lobbying our MLAs and premier that ESRD needs more money to properly do their job. I can think of lots of things that money needs to be spent on in that department but each year they seem to cut the budget a bit more.

[The Bit Runner.]

Too me it's not rocket science here. There has to be a way that the survey can be done and done at a cost that afordable to all.Why is there not some way that you can have it that if it doesnt show up on your win number that you never gave the survey, you dont get a wildlife certificate until its filled out.

Its a amazing thing how we as hunters know when the draws start and end and very few will miss that deadline. So why cant we have a deadline months prior on the survey? Its realy quite a simple task here. Were not designing a bomb here!!! If its a money issue put a resonable fee on the survey then. To me its a bunch of horse **** and all the excuse's that come with it, Money,people,time on and on.

[BigRackLover]

Originally Posted by The Bit Runner.

Too me it's not rocket science here. To me its a bunch of horse **** and all the excuse's that come with it, Money,people,time on and on.

It's not rocket science.
Those excuses are commonly heard in the government, unfortunately.

But hey, if the SRD has close to a 10% fill rate per WMU per year on the surveys already then that's good enough (statistically speaking) to make some decisions. Of course, more data/information is better but it'll most likely just confirm what the original 10% pointed out.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by The Bit Runner.

Too me it's not rocket science here. There has to be a way that the survey can be done and done at a cost that afordable to all.Why is there not some way that you can have it that if it doesnt show up on your win number that you never gave the survey, you dont get a wildlife certificate until its filled out.

Its a amazing thing how we as hunters know when the draws start and end and very few will miss that deadline. So why cant we have a deadline months prior on the survey? Its realy quite a simple task here. Were not designing a bomb here!!! If its a money issue put a resonable fee on the survey then. To me its a bunch of horse **** and all the excuse's that come with it, Money,people,time on and on.

I agree with the above approach...IBM takes a tonne of money in every year, lets build the survey off of that infrastructure and add the survey to that...its the least they could "give back" in the name of conservation. Without hunters buying draw tags and licenses IBM would not be pulling in what amounts to a fair amount of revenue....lets face it if they weren't making money they wouldn't do it.

ESRD should approach them about adding this to their "system"

LC

[The Bit Runner.]

Sheep... Do you know how many wildlife certificates were sold last year? I have a feeling that it is a very large number x that number by a resonable fee for the survey and whooooooo, Thats a fricken HUGE number!!!! Do you think that number will pay employes for say a month lone surv. Just like the draw say you have a 3 week period to complete the surv.

Originally Posted by The Bit Runner.

Sheep... Do you know how many wildlife certificates were sold last year? I have a feeling that it is a very large number x that number by a resonable fee for the survey and whooooooo, Thats a fricken HUGE number!!!! Do you think that number will pay employes for say a month lone surv. Just like the draw say you have a 3 week period to complete the surv.

Yup, the answer is right in this thread
105,389 to residents


Doing the survey is part of it...compiling all the results and extrapolating the data is another. You'd be paying for much more than a month of staff time.

Then there would be a charge to set the system up and so on and so on.

No question that it could be done and it could be a user-pay system but where do we stop? Is a mandatory survey the most critical need in the ESRD budget shortfall right now. So perhaps we tack on $20 bucks for the mandatory survey. Then we tack on another $20 to get more officers in the field. Then we tack on another $20 for more aerial surveys. Then another $20....well you get the point. It's a slippery slope if we start ponying up money for every budgetary shortfall. This is but one problem in a sea of many. Perhaps I sent too much time in stats classes in school, but I don't see the info they have as being all that bad. Sure it could be better but if we are to spend more money on ESRD, perhaps there are better places to spend it.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Have IBM "piggy back" this on the existing system....they do the draws and spit out the stats for those in nice PDF downloadable packets, this most likely would be no harder to do.

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Have IBM "piggy back" this on the existing system....they do the draws and spit out the stats for those in nice PDF downloadable packets, this most likely would be no harder to do.

LC

I'm sure they'd be happy to bid on that contract You do remember why our WIN card price went up a few years ago right?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm sure they'd be happy to bid on that contract You do remember why our WIN card price went up a few years ago right?

I don't but if I ask you kindly will you tell me?

With the amount of money that IBM is hammering out of us year in and year out.... they should do this for free

ESRD should make this a stickler in the next contract they sign with them.

LC

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Yup, the answer is right in this thread
105,389 to residents


Doing the survey is part of it...compiling all the results and extrapolating the data is another. You'd be paying for much more than a month of staff time.

Then there would be a charge to set the system up and so on and so on.

No question that it could be done and it could be a user-pay system but where do we stop? Is a mandatory survey the most critical need in the ESRD budget shortfall right now. So perhaps we tack on $20 bucks for the mandatory survey. Then we tack on another $20 to get more officers in the field. Then we tack on another $20 for more aerial surveys. Then another $20....well you get the point. It's a slippery slope if we start ponying up money for every budgetary shortfall. This is but one problem in a sea of many. Perhaps I sent too much time in stats classes in school, but I don't see the info they have as being all that bad. Sure it could be better but if we are to spend more money on ESRD, perhaps there are better places to spend it.

Well we have to start somewhere, To me the only slippery slope were climbing here is not getting this Survey done and getting correct data period!! I hardly think it would cost $ 2,107,780 to implement something like this.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I don't but if I ask you kindly will you tell me?

LC

To upgrade their system to accomodate the on-line draws. Funny thing about private business is that they like to be paid for work above their contract. Kinda like anyone with a job I guess.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

To upgrade their system to accomodate the on-line draws. Funny thing about private business is that they like to be paid for work above their contract. Kinda like anyone with a job I guess.

Next time the contract is layed out....ensure this is included then.

LC