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  #1  
Old 09-21-2022, 07:40 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Default The dewatering continues

Folks,

Three water extraction pumps sucking from Prairie Creek @ #752 Bridge @ Strachan Saturday.
Was yelled at for taking pictures.
Tried to find permit info on Alberta Regulator Site w/o success.
Any one know how to access.
However, just so you know. The water extraction is about 2 miles upstream of the primary spawning water on Prairie Creek which is closed to angling protect the fish.
Govt at its best

Don
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  #2  
Old 09-21-2022, 07:48 AM
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Phone the county/MD and see whatís up.
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  #3  
Old 09-22-2022, 08:31 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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I asked the AlBerta Energy Regulator who should supply the info.
Mind you, the AER is funded by the oil companies.

Don
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  #4  
Old 09-23-2022, 08:59 AM
coachman coachman is offline
 
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Is the license not supposed to be posted where they are drawing the water?
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Old 09-23-2022, 09:32 AM
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Knotter Knotter is offline
 
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Default AEP for water act

Op - don't stop till you get an answer from someone. Call RAP they can direct you to aer contacts. Red flag if they yelled at you beacuase they might not have a permit.
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  #6  
Old 09-23-2022, 11:46 AM
Esox Esox is offline
 
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Permit needs to be posted at site. They're only allowed to withdraw water at a certain rate that is in the permit. If its three pumps, Im assuming its for a pipeline hydrotest or a frac which is then authorized under a TDL but also a code of practice for water withdraw for hydrostatic testing. Its also probably through AEP not AER.
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  #7  
Old 09-23-2022, 11:47 AM
Esox Esox is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knotter View Post
Op - don't stop till you get an answer from someone. Call RAP they can direct you to aer contacts. Red flag if they yelled at you beacuase they might not have a permit.
I highly doubt someone is going to pull water out with 3 pumps on a fairly main secondary highway without a permit in place.
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  #8  
Old 09-23-2022, 04:39 PM
ZJHoban ZJHoban is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox View Post
I highly doubt someone is going to pull water out with 3 pumps on a fairly main secondary highway without a permit in place.
Then why would he be getting yelled at for taking pictures?
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  #9  
Old 09-23-2022, 04:42 PM
pyke88 pyke88 is offline
 
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Ram River Plant? They've been pumping out of Prairie Creek like crazy for a month.
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Old 09-23-2022, 05:19 PM
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bonedogg bonedogg is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox View Post
Permit needs to be posted at site. They're only allowed to withdraw water at a certain rate that is in the permit. If its three pumps, Im assuming its for a pipeline hydrotest or a frac which is then authorized under a TDL but also a code of practice for water withdraw for hydrostatic testing. Its also probably through AEP not AER.
This guy is bang on!

under a TDL ( temporary diversion License) granted all the time...... Our Province's mandate is we are able to utilize up to 50% of the surface water and let the rest flow to the neighbors..... we don't even come close to utilizing that allocation.
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  #11  
Old 09-24-2022, 07:04 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyke88 View Post
Ram River Plant? They've been pumping out of Prairie Creek like crazy for a month.
Frac is where itís going I assume based on where the discharge lines are going.

Don
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  #12  
Old 09-24-2022, 07:06 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonedogg View Post
This guy is bang on!

under a TDL ( temporary diversion License) granted all the time...... Our Province's mandate is we are able to utilize up to 50% of the surface water and let the rest flow to the neighbors..... we don't even come close to utilizing that allocation.
It is my understanding based on reading the documents that all water extractions that deal with energy are now approved by AER.

Don
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  #13  
Old 09-24-2022, 07:07 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyke88 View Post
Ram River Plant? They've been pumping out of Prairie Creek like crazy for a month.
Where are they extracting the water?

Don
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  #14  
Old 09-25-2022, 04:45 PM
Esox Esox is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
It is my understanding based on reading the documents that all water extractions that deal with energy are now approved by AER.

Don
Not true. AEP gives TDL's for work such as highways and federally regulated pipelines such as the one that Midwest is building in that area.
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  #15  
Old 09-25-2022, 05:30 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Frankly, I really couldnít care who issued the permits for dewatering a stream. I really have to wonder what brain dead jerk decided to remove the water from a area where the stream is closed to protect the spawning activity.
Or,
Perhaps itís a FÖ. You after the stink I raised when they pumped Prairie Creek at Xmas time last winter with the AEP and Fisheries and Oceans.
The sooner the Govt destroys the fishery, the better for resource exploitation.

A process that has continued for years.

Don
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  #16  
Old 09-25-2022, 05:33 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox View Post
Not true. AEP gives TDL's for work such as highways and federally regulated pipelines such as the one that Midwest is building in that area.
When I asked AEP about the Prairie Creek pumping last Xmas, I got a run around of the first order. Past from person to person till I gave up.
Letters from AEP detailed the AER process.

Don
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  #17  
Old 09-26-2022, 06:52 AM
Esox Esox is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
Frankly, I really couldnít care who issued the permits for dewatering a stream. I really have to wonder what brain dead jerk decided to remove the water from a area where the stream is closed to protect the spawning activity.
Or,
Perhaps itís a FÖ. You after the stink I raised when they pumped Prairie Creek at Xmas time last winter with the AEP and Fisheries and Oceans.
The sooner the Govt destroys the fishery, the better for resource exploitation.

A process that has continued for years.

Don
Im not saying I am for allowing the withdraw of water from this system BUT as has been mentioned before, there is only a set amount that is being allowed to be taken out and there is a set intake velocity on the pumps so that fish are not harmed. The water withdraw will not run the creek dry and if the company doing the withdraw is following their permit (which they will 100% have), then they can only withdraw at a rate that is 10% of the current flow, which they have to monitor using either (or both) a water survey canada station and/or their own flow measurements taken and documented in their files. Again, I am not for taking water out from this location but you are making it sound like the end of the world and this one particular withdraw has caused the creek to go completely dry and ruin any/all spawning habitat.
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  #18  
Old 09-26-2022, 09:15 AM
lannie lannie is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox View Post
Im not saying I am for allowing the withdraw of water from this system BUT as has been mentioned before, there is only a set amount that is being allowed to be taken out and there is a set intake velocity on the pumps so that fish are not harmed. The water withdraw will not run the creek dry and if the company doing the withdraw is following their permit (which they will 100% have), then they can only withdraw at a rate that is 10% of the current flow, which they have to monitor using either (or both) a water survey canada station and/or their own flow measurements taken and documented in their files. Again, I am not for taking water out from this location but you are making it sound like the end of the world and this one particular withdraw has caused the creek to go completely dry and ruin any/all spawning habitat.
Thanks for the reality check.
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  #19  
Old 09-26-2022, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox View Post
Im not saying I am for allowing the withdraw of water from this system BUT as has been mentioned before, there is only a set amount that is being allowed to be taken out and there is a set intake velocity on the pumps so that fish are not harmed. The water withdraw will not run the creek dry and if the company doing the withdraw is following their permit (which they will 100% have), then they can only withdraw at a rate that is 10% of the current flow, which they have to monitor using either (or both) a water survey canada station and/or their own flow measurements taken and documented in their files. Again, I am not for taking water out from this location but you are making it sound like the end of the world and this one particular withdraw has caused the creek to go completely dry and ruin any/all spawning habitat.
Yes, we should absolutely ignore any and all industrial activities that could potentially harm a fishery. Especially on as small as Prairie.

I also fully put my trust in the government and Big Corporate to care for the fragile ecosystems. God bless them all.
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Old 09-27-2022, 07:42 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lannie View Post
Thanks for the reality check.


Calculations for last winters withdrawal was based on the flows in the Clearwater system.

I havenít been able to get a response from AER about the permit,timing, calculations etc.


Don

Last edited by tirebob; 09-27-2022 at 10:23 AM.
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  #21  
Old 09-27-2022, 11:04 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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For this wanting to understand reality, please take the time to read and understand this document prepared by the Alberta Govt
" Surface Water Allocation Directive"

For those wishing to understand how the system works, I received a letter from Assistant Deputy Minster Kate Rich that I will be pleased to send it to you via email.

regards,

Don
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  #22  
Old 09-27-2022, 12:41 PM
rvaneyk rvaneyk is offline
 
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Angry Run Around

Just reading the post has my head spinning with bureaucratic BS. The government learned this along time ago. A multilayer system works best for deflecting criticism.
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  #23  
Old 09-27-2022, 01:47 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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A quick scan of the water flows on Prairie Creek revealed that yet again, the amount of water extracted was too much.
Last winter, prior to ice rendering the Meter Stn. inoperable, it measured <>1m/s. They had one pump on it.
This year, three pumps and 2.8 m/s.
Last years withdrawal caluclations didn't allow for a number of additional flows that arrive between the pump and the Meter Stn.
And for those suffering reality issues.
Here is the Meter Stn. info location.

https://rivers.alberta.ca/

Still waiting for the permit info.

The other day, they were down to 2 pumps.

Don
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  #24  
Old 10-13-2022, 11:28 PM
crazypicklez crazypicklez is offline
 
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We should go conduct a citizens arrest on those jerk offs. If this was legitimate not only should the TDL information be publicly available on AER website but a copy should be posted at the extraction site as well as on the company/person of whoever is conducting the activity.
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  #25  
Old 10-14-2022, 06:54 AM
Esox Esox is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypicklez View Post
We should go conduct a citizens arrest on those jerk offs. If this was legitimate not only should the TDL information be publicly available on AER website but a copy should be posted at the extraction site as well as on the company/person of whoever is conducting the activity.
But as I have mentioned before, AER may not be the licensing authority. AEP has (and does) give out TDL's to.
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  #26  
Old 10-14-2022, 11:39 AM
crazypicklez crazypicklez is offline
 
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But not being forthcoming with or posting a hard copy at the extraction site is an offense in itself that should get their permit revoked. .

In addition to this, all pumps must be equipped with fish screens. Fish screens must be used in accordance with DFO's Interim Code of Practice: End-of-pipe fish protection screens for small water intakes in freshwater.

I wouldn't put it past the current government to just not be interested doing any enforcement against industry. Don, if you cant get any response out of the province I would recommend getting DFO involved to investigate.
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  #27  
Old 10-15-2022, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
I asked the AlBerta Energy Regulator who should supply the info.
Mind you, the AER is funded by the oil companies.

Don
Donít fear that as they go after companies with glee.

Itís a government agency that tax payers donít have to pay.

Getting on the wrong side of them is definitely something energy companies donít want to do.

That saidÖ they should not be pulling water off that will risk a spawning creek or fish population.

What is the main risk here?
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  #28  
Old 10-18-2022, 10:05 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Donít fear that as they go after companies with glee.

Itís a government agency that tax payers donít have to pay.

Getting on the wrong side of them is definitely something energy companies donít want to do.

That saidÖ they should not be pulling water off that will risk a spawning creek or fish population.

What is the main risk here?
The primary spawning area on Pr. Creek is located about 2 miles downstream. The stream is closed to fishing to protect the spawners.
Applies to you and me, but not oil companies.
I gotta wonder if the permit is still using the Clearwater River for flow calculations like was done in the winter extraction.

Don
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