Caribou vs. Moose

[jacobin]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wil...companies.html



Don't know if anybody has seen this, or if it has already been posted and I just missed it. But this is what happens when people who don't live here, report on things they know nothing about.

Enjoy!

[AxeMan]

Ha ha, hilarious. Stupid people are everywhere!

[Walleyes]

Boy,, stuff like this just really gets me riled up yah know.. I won't even begin too comment on it..

[Matt L.]

Interesting, according to the caption under the pic of the "caribou", their numbers are around 200 in all of Canada. When did this happen?

[goober]

Too funny!!!

[hal53]

wonder when those arrogant Brit ***ards are going to realize that yes..."the sun does set on the British Empire"... sorry, that is my forefathers heritage, but, let's check out their coal mining practices???...tired of people trying to sensationalize something they know nothing about......BTW nice caribou, wonder what he'd score???

[Rockymtnx]

I wonder if thats considered to be a double shoveled bull?

[fat cat]

Ya. You bet..Get the attention off of BP who just destoyed the most integretal part of the whole world, and base it on a area that is covered in above ground oil, (and I don't agree on a lot things there) just to take the pressure off themselves.

[mtylerb]

Well, I was bored and decided to comment:

Great way to bring honest reporting to the world. As the last two comments have stated, that is a moose, not a caribou. The population of moose in the province of Newfoundland, alone, is estimated at 850,000. That number is FAR from your statement of only "200 in the Beaver Lake Cree territory". As for Caribou, there are an estimated 1,000,000 such animals living in this country, mostly in the northern areas.

If we are indeed talking about caribou, then they are native to the more northern sections of Canada and are uncommon in Alberta, of which Beaver Lake Cree Nation is a part (just north and east of Edmonton). The nearest Wildlife Management Unit that was surveyed showed a estimated population of 1,410 animals in 1998. A 700% increase over your "200" statement. That WMU (#507) is approximately 7,421 sq Kilometers. Roughly 17.98% of the area of Switzerland (41,284 sq Kilometers). Beaver Lake Cree Nation is approximately 70 sq Kilometers or 0.17% the size of Switzerland.

I think someone needs to start doing some research before uncapping their pen and beginning to write such nonsense as is displayed here.

I think I found the proper BLCN. Either way, there's no way BLCN is as large as Switzerland.

[elkhunter11]

What else would you expect from the British?

[sjd]

Yep, some British editor screwed up by posting a photo of the moose, but the research noting the 75% decline (based on UofA and industry research) in caribou pops in northeastern Alberta is solid.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37111032/E...odland-caribou

"The ESAR herd has declined by 71% since 1996 while the CLAWR has declined 74% since 1998. This level of decline is dramatic and it is a strong signal that drastic immediate management action is required to keep caribou from disappearing completely in the TT"

"There is clear evidence that the human-caused changes in vegetation on caribou range in the TT are well above any threshold that could support viable caribou populations. Population declines in recent years have been drastic and recovery of caribou in the TT requires immediate action involving restoration of linear features, well sites, and cut blocks to natural vegetation,
no further habitat change caused by human land use (full protection of caribou range), and caribou mortality management. It is clear that the history of planning and mitigation of activities at local project scales has not worked to protect caribou. The cumulative effects of many individual projects have led to total industrial activity exceeding the levels that can support viable caribou herds in the TT and surrounding area."

Ha Ha! We're losing caribou in Alberta as a result of too much development in their ranges and you are poking fun at a wrong photo? Really funny guys....guess we're never going to get a hunt back.

Is this an Outdoorsman website, or a blind defence of the oil industry at all costs site?

In Conservation.

[DarkAisling]

Originally Posted by sjd

Ha Ha! We're losing caribou in Alberta as a result of too much development in their ranges and you are poking fun at a wrong photo? Really funny guys....guess we're never going to get a hunt back.

Is this an Outdoorsman website, or a blind defence of the oil industry at all costs site?

This is "Caribou Season" for me. I'm in the office early in the morning, and I'm here until very late at night. I'm also often in on weekends. It isn't uncommon for me to pull 80 hour weeks at this time of year. When people find me nodding off at my desk, they ask "Caribou Season?" They're greeted with an "Uh huh." I pretty much go psycho this time of year.

What am I doing? I'm building maps. Every single thing our clients want to do inside caribou ranges within the next year has to be approved by SRD: whether it is maintaining or testing an existing facility or building a new facility.

I will make hundreds of edits to these maps. I'll move wells and reroute pipelines over and over again until SRD is happy. Sometimes, despite all of the hours of work by myself, and those at the O&G company (geophysicists, landmen, etc.) SRD will shake its head and say "No go."

Do not think for a second that development in the caribou ranges isn't watched and managed very closely.

But hey, if you don't require oil and/or gas in your life feel free to complain all you want. If you do require it, move to a location where your oil and gas supply is provided by the Middle East. There's some real ethical oil for ya!

[trapperman]

If the decline of elk is so prominent in alberta... then, i would think, they should stop shipping them to ontario..do you not think?
I've been a part of ontarios elk restoration project for a decade and they're all coming from alberta.(several thousand} Makes one question the validity of such a survey.
trapperman
ontario

[Ryry4]

Here's a question, has anyone asked/surveyed how many caribou are killed each year by First Nations people for the dinner table? If the population is already on shaky ground no body should be able to hunt them.

[Loper]

Who said anything about elk?
BTW a quick google search tells me you're full of it.
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodcons...rod_067662.pdf

[DarkAisling]

Originally Posted by Loper

Who said anything about elk?
BTW a quick google search tells me you're full of it.
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodcons...rod_067662.pdf

A quick scan of the document you've linked to indicates that:

(From Page 5):

Elk were obtained from Elk Island National Park (EINP) in Alberta, the source of
elk for many reintroduction and restoration projects across North America. The
park is fully enclosed and lacks any large predators. This results in high levels of
population growth which can support the frequent removal of elk. The park has
permanent capture and holding facilities as well as a rigorous disease
management program (PETT and CCERU 2004, Rosatte et. al 2007).

Who are you accusing of being "full of it?"

[pdfish]

Originally Posted by sjd

Yep, some British editor screwed up by posting a photo of the moose, but the research noting the 75% decline (based on UofA and industry research) in caribou pops in northeastern Alberta is solid.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37111032/E...odland-caribou

"The ESAR herd has declined by 71% since 1996 while the CLAWR has declined 74% since 1998. This level of decline is dramatic and it is a strong signal that drastic immediate management action is required to keep caribou from disappearing completely in the TT"

"There is clear evidence that the human-caused changes in vegetation on caribou range in the TT are well above any threshold that could support viable caribou populations. Population declines in recent years have been drastic and recovery of caribou in the TT requires immediate action involving restoration of linear features, well sites, and cut blocks to natural vegetation,
no further habitat change caused by human land use (full protection of caribou range), and caribou mortality management. It is clear that the history of planning and mitigation of activities at local project scales has not worked to protect caribou. The cumulative effects of many individual projects have led to total industrial activity exceeding the levels that can support viable caribou herds in the TT and surrounding area."

Ha Ha! We're losing caribou in Alberta as a result of too much development in their ranges and you are poking fun at a wrong photo? Really funny guys....guess we're never going to get a hunt back.

Is this an Outdoorsman website, or a blind defence of the oil industry at all costs site?

In Conservation.

I'm sure the wolves haven't had anything to do with it either, right??

[sjd]

Shelley,

I've got friends who work in land depts for forestry and oil and gas too, and you have my sympathy about the hoops SRD makes you jump through in terms of timing restrictions and moving locations of pipes etc. The trouble is, it doesn't really do any good, which is why the herds are still declining.

SRD needs to give the illusion they are doing something while saying yes to every project, even if it is not achieving the desired outcome of maintaining caribou populations.

Its not industry's fault - the Gov is just leasing too many projects all at the same time in all the caribou herds. If we want to maintain caribou in Alberta, we have to leave some ranges alone, its as simple as that.

I'm not against the oil industry, I just don't think gov should lease virtually every range for development and leave you with the impossible job of trying to keep caribou around by building crossing structures and the like which the 20 year track record shows just doesn't work.

Its just a matter of balance, and clearly we have crossed that line.

[Loper]

Trapperman stated several thousand elk were relocated there over the past decade. the 2010 document I linked to states that 443 elk were relocated there with the last ones being moved in 2001.

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by Ryry4

Here's a question, has anyone asked/surveyed how many caribou are killed each year by First Nations people for the dinner table? If the population is already on shaky ground no body should be able to hunt them.

dont think they can. not sure though.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Loper

Trapperman stated several thousand elk were relocated there over the past decade. the 2010 document I linked to states that 443 elk were relocated there with the last ones being moved in 2001.

I don't think trappperman has a clue to what he is talking about or anything about this thread.

[DarkAisling]

Originally Posted by sjd

Shelley,

I've got friends who work in land depts for forestry and oil and gas too, and you have my sympathy about the hoops SRD makes you jump through in terms of timing restrictions and moving locations of pipes etc. The trouble is, it doesn't really do any good, which is why the herds are still declining.

The restrictions exceed more than just timing, though when this program was first implemented the restrictions were almost exclusively about timing.

Originally Posted by sjd

Its just a matter of balance, and clearly we have crossed that line.

The herd data that comes from our environmental company is quite positive for the most part. It isn't perfect, but it does reflect that the majority of the herds are doing well.

We want all of the herds to be doing well, of course, but significant improvements have been made in the last ten years. Instead of saying "we can't keep doing this" what we really need to say is "How can we build on the improvements we've made, and keep improving?"

Those of us who work in oil and gas are certainly aware of the environmental impact, but we also have a deep understanding of how things are changing and evolving to protect and restore the environment. This understanding could very well be why many of us just aren't as worried as laymen: we're not turning a blind eye to the situation, we're casting an educated eye on it.

Here's something I find pretty exciting:
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/mark...ntent=b4529338

It is a giant step in a great direction, and while it may not be perfect . . . let's keep moving forward and learn how to build and improve on it.

[unclebuck]

I live in the Lac La Biche area, and have been offered caribou, shot behind the "gates", by our indigenous brethren. Don't give me the horse manure that they are conservation minded. The Conklin crowd really give a rat's patoot what happens to the woodland caribou. Reality, "shoot what is on the road, day or night"!