Shot placement question

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Long range shooting is a special skill. I can't do it and never will be able to because my hands aren't steady enough. I mean I vibrate. I always have.
With each passing year it gets worse, so much so that now I have trouble picking up small things like a grain of rice, and forget about drawing a straight line, I have always needed a ruler to keep my lines from making a snake dizzy.

You might be surprized keg what you can actually do with a little coaching, technique and specialized gear to help get around those issues. Never say never

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by big-river

Remind me again, where will you be aiming at this doe at the water hole in good light on a relatively calm day in an early hunting season before the water freezes?
Is it going to be a #1, #2 or a #3 hold?
Thats where this thread more or less started, right?

Thread started as "large & potentially dangerous" just for a reminder. And as I have written in several posts, whether it was 50, 100 or 1000yds I would be aiming in the heart / lungs which is neither 1,2 or 3 on the diagrams but just slightly back of #2.

[big-river]

Which is exactly the right place to aim.

[HunterDave]

Largest visible mass that will inflict the most lethal damage.........wherever that may be.

[Okotokian]

Shoot 'em in the azz..... you paid all that money for some excitment, didn't you?

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

So in a condensed version do you need more hunting skill to get to 20yrds than 1000yrds?
Was just stating that hunting skill will get you close, and shooting skill will get it done a great distances.

Like I said a great hunter doesnt need to shoot far and a great shooter doesnt need to be as good of a hunter.
Two very real skills but two very different skills.
SG

Not sure where your going with this one SG.
I would think that most long range hunters didn't go that route outta lack of hunting skill.
Probably more a case of a new challenge maybe?
I still find lots of challenges and excitement without having to add new ones,so I won't be going the route of the long range hunter.
I think one thing that the long range shooters have over most ( or me anyway) is the ability to commit a bunch of time mastering their sport. Thats if they want to be really good at it.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Largest visible mass that will inflict the most lethal damage.........wherever that may be.

Here is a link to shot placement on a Cape Buffalo. http://www.capebuffalo.comlu.com/1_1...placement.html. You will notice that the heart/ lung area is further ahead than in the following Moose Link. This is common among African game when compared to most North American game. The preferred shot is to the "vital organs preferably breaking bone somewhere in the process". As one can see the vital organs are closer to the shoulder which makes a shoulder shot, that takes out the vital organs, easier than on a moose, elk or deer.

Here is a link to an article about shot placement on a moose. I have shot more than 45 moose, 7 or 8 elk, many black bear and numerous smaller animals. While I have used every shot mentioned my preferred shot, and one that I have used most often, is the lung shot or the #$4 shot as one poster called it. It is described in this article and seems to be the authors preferred shot as well.
http://www.mooseheaven.com/best-kill-shot-for-moose.htm

He does describe the shoulder shot and suggests that it should be reserved for dangerous game. There is no real mention of a "High Shoulder Shot" which in reality is a shot through the shoulder blade and into the spine. With the advent of the Berger hunting bullets and shows like "Best of the West" this has become the preferred the shot for "Long Range Hunting". I do think that moving back a bit to the back or just behind the shoulder blade and just below the spine is the preferred shot in this case. This shot is used on all game, at long ranges, including Grizzly, with spectacular results.

The fellow that bought my 6.5 EXTREME, long range hunting rifle, reported shooting a deer at about 100 yards with the 140 Berger Target/Hunting bullet. This bullet, started at about 3010fps, entered behind the shoulder about 4" below the spine and dropped the deer on the spot. There was a small entrance hole, a broken rib and the bullet exploded taking out about 6" of spine and the top of the lungs. Aside from loosing a few rib steaks there was little meat damage and no visible exit wound. All of the bullets energy was expended in the deer and resulted in virtually instant death. Not sure that this would be the preferred shot with bonded or monolithic bullets as missing the backbone and grazing the top of the lungs could result in a wounded animal that you may not recover.

As far as long range hunting goes, I can say that I have shot my share of moose, elk and deer at ranges up to and including over 600 yards. For the most part I used a 270 Win and a 7mm-08 Remington. The ones I shot with a 7mm Rem Mag or 350 Rem Mag really didn't die any faster than they did with the standard calibers nor were the shots any more dramatic. If one is going to shoot long range I suggest that they have their rifle shooting 1/2 MOA with enough terminal energy to ensure a humane kill. I consider 1100 ft lbs to be minimum but less will do with a well placed shot. As well one needs to practice at the ranges that he is expecting to shoot to make sure that the rifle is set up properly.

I do a lot of gopher shooting and have my gopher gun tuned in to shoot sub 1/3 MOA. This makes shooting a gopher in the head at 300 yards an easy task if the wind is either down or in my face or back. If you have your big game rifle tuned in like this, and loaded appropriately, then 1000 yard shots are really a piece of cake if the wind is in your favor. One of my friends reported dropping a coyote at 906 yards with his 7mm mag that we had tuned in last fall.

This link to shot placement on a leopard emphasizes a shot to the "boiler room" as well.
http://www.africahunting.com/firearm...placement.html

Hopefully this will answer the OP's original question and put the BS, that this post has generated, to rest. Perhaps some of the wrath will be redirected at me but I am prepared to accept that as it seems to have become the norm on this forum.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Not sure where your going with this one SG.
I would think that most long range hunters didn't go that route outta lack of hunting skill.
Probably more a case of a new challenge maybe?
I still find lots of challenges and excitement without having to add new ones,so I won't be going the route of the long range hunter.
I think one thing that the long range shooters have over most ( or me anyway) is the ability to commit a bunch of time mastering their sport. Thats if they want to be really good at it.

I agree 100% that LD shooting takes dedication and practise in most cases. But if you watch Best Of The West and beleive their hype it pretty easy to see that with the right set up and coaching almost anyone can shoot LD. And that is what many hunters are seeing and is what is getting many guys into trying LD shots on game.

I simply stated that it takes more skill in stealth and such to stalk in close than it does to set up 1000yrds out and shoot an animal.

My biggest amazment is how many guys here think its just as hard to get 1000yrds as 200yrds. LOL
How many trophy animals do guys see on the opposite side of a quater section from their truck. Animals arent as spooky at that distance. Put a LD shooter there and he has an 880yrd shot. Take Joe hunter and he has to sneak almost 3/4 the way across that quarter to get to around 200yrds.
Tell me it requires the same hunting skill!
The LD shooter didnt need to read the lay of the land, cover his scent, keep quiet, avoid other game, get the distance covered before the animal moves or any other stalking skills.
He just determined wind and distance. Made calculated adjustments to aim and shoots. Yes he must be a good shot! But not neccessarily a good hunter!
SG

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

Hopefully this will answer the OP's original question and put the BS, that this post has generated, to rest. Perhaps some of the wrath will be redirected at me but I am prepared to accept that as it seems to have become the norm on this forum.

Great post Iclund! Very well thought out and presented. You weren't expecting that eh?

Did you see where the shot placement was on a giraffe? Right where I thought it'd be.

[Okotokian]

Shoot 'em in the shoulder or shoot 'em in the vitals. Two choices... 15 pages later.... LOL

[HunterDave]

Okay, if a shoulder shot is a better over a boiler room shot for dangerous game, where would you shoot a snake?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Okay, if a shoulder shot is a better over a boiler room shot for dangerous game, where would you shoot a snake?

Low tail !!!!!!!!!

[decker]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Low tail !!!!!!!!!

Thats a waste of tail isn't

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by decker

Thats a waste of tail isn't

But "Ethicaly" the snake will "bang flop" this way.

[diamonddave]

Darcy, I think you put the final cap on this thread, thank you

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I agree 100% that LD shooting takes dedication and practise in most cases. But if you watch Best Of The West and beleive their hype it pretty easy to see that with the right set up and coaching almost anyone can shoot LD. And that is what many hunters are seeing and is what is getting many guys into trying LD shots on game.

I simply stated that it takes more skill in stealth and such to stalk in close than it does to set up 1000yrds out and shoot an animal.

My biggest amazment is how many guys here think its just as hard to get 1000yrds as 200yrds. LOL
How many trophy animals do guys see on the opposite side of a quater section from their truck. Animals arent as spooky at that distance. Put a LD shooter there and he has an 880yrd shot. Take Joe hunter and he has to sneak almost 3/4 the way across that quarter to get to around 200yrds.
Tell me it requires the same hunting skill!
The LD shooter didnt need to read the lay of the land, cover his scent, keep quiet, avoid other game, get the distance covered before the animal moves or any other stalking skills.
He just determined wind and distance. Made calculated adjustments to aim and shoots. Yes he must be a good shot! But not neccessarily a good hunter!
SG

It is possible that one could be both.

In the Peace River Valley, and its tributaries, where I grew up hunting it is nearly impossible to stalk up close to animals in the thick aspen/willow covered hills. In the mornings the moose and deer tend to be found standing on grass covered ridges which represent a very small portion of the terrain. Just happens that most of these ridges are 400-700 yards from the top or bottom of the valley.

I recall one moose that was standing on one such ridge where the Montagnuse river meets the Peace river. I was near the boat launch and ranged the moose at 600 yards. As he was about 400 feet up and quartering slightly away I adjusted my elevation for 575 yards and aimed a bit low and a bit ahead of the back of the rib cage. The 140 Nosler SB bullet, started at 3000fps from my Rem 700V, entered through the ribs, took out both lungs and exited after passing through the shoulder blade (high shoulder shot in reverse or lung shot?). Moose took 10 or 12 steps, grunted and fell down dead. A neighbor asked me "how did you shot that moose up there"? When I told him he didn't believe me.

I also recall a time where I stalked right into the middle of a herd when I was bow hunting elk. I had stalked to within 15 yards of an elk that was totally unaware that I was there. Just as I was pulling back on the bow a cow behind me got my wind and that was the end of that hunt. Got one later during rifle season that was totting along at 300 yards. Didn't give quite enough lead and got a liver shot which generally causes an animal to stop and hump up at that distance. Dialed the old Rem 700 V in at 300 yards and finished her with a head shot. That old rifle would shoot three into 0.19" from my varmint rest and likely still will. It was about 20 years ago that I worked up that load and I still have the target I shot with it.
[IMG][/IMG]

It is best to be good at both types of hunting. Best to be good at hand loading as well.

[Redfrog]

Which is better, the right shoulder or the left?

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Which is better, the right shoulder or the left?

Redddddddddddddddddddddd...... LOL

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Which is better, the right shoulder or the left?

All depends if the animal is left footed or right as the muscle texture will be different depending on which foot they use the most. You need to know which shoulder is used less so the muscle mass is lower so as to allow better penetration.

SG

[209x50]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I recall one moose that was standing on one such ridge where the Montagnuse river meets the Peace river. .

Now that is some beautiful country!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

All depends if the animal is left footed or right as the muscle texture will be different depending on which foot they use the most. You need to know which shoulder is used less so the muscle mass is lower so as to allow better penetration.

SG

It's easy enough to determine which leg he uses the most for daily activities, unless he's ambidextrous, because it'll be the longer leg. They always keep the longer leg on the downhill side of their body and the short leg on the uphill side in order to even themselves out. The trick is to stay downhill of the critter but if you get into a bad position and have to shoot it in the off-shoulder then it should work out fine.............but a boiler room shot would be better.

I should add that this is only true for animals in the mountains. If flatland animals were designed like that they would spend their day walking around in circles.

As for shooting snakes, a lower tail shot would in fact be the most ethical because if you pouch the shot and don't recover the snake his tail will simply grow back. A rib shot on a snake is the preferred shot taken by most professional snake hunters though.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

.....but a boiler room shot would be better.

That has to be a judgment call though! If his boiler doesnt have the proper PSI head of steam or is low on PH then the shot could be iffy!!!!!

SG

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Now that is some beautiful country!

My former backyard. Thought you might be familiar with the area. Montagnuse River where it meets the Peace River with the Clear Hills in the Background. My 100 yard target in bottom center of picture.
[IMG][/IMG]

[KegRiver]

Beautiful country iclund.

I tramped around that country a bit last summer, looking for something to photograph after work, but I didn't get quiet that far west.
Spent a good part of my time around Lake George. It was close and had lots of wildlife.

[big-river]

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrious.

[HunterDave]

Last year there was a guy with one arm arrested out on the lake for constantly rowing in circles and bothering other boaters.

[bb356]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Last year there was a guy with one arm arrested out on the lake for constantly rowing in circles and bothering other boaters.

How did he pick his nose ???

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Beautiful country iclund.

I tramped around that country a bit last summer, looking for something to photograph after work, but I didn't get quiet that far west.
Spent a good part of my time around Lake George. It was close and had lots of wildlife.

Too bad you didn't get further west and south Keg. If you go south and west of George Lake there is a beautiful area of Pine covered sand hills right over to the Hines Creek which runs into the Peace at Dunvegan. The area in between the Hines Creek and the Montagnuse was my main hunting area when I was on the farm. Would see at least 11-12 moose every morning and possibly 100 mule deer. Whitetail and elk were late comers to the area but numbers were quite good when I left. Unfortunately the wolves have moved in from the Clear Hills and are doing a number on the ungulate population. The Grizzly bears have moved south as well but are still north of the Montagnuse and working on the elk in that area.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

My former backyard. Thought you might be familiar with the area. Montagnuse River where it meets the Peace River with the Clear Hills in the Background. My 100 yard target in bottom center of picture.
[IMG][/IMG]

Built a house back in the early 80's for a fellow that had a horse ranch not far from the Monty. I couldn't believe he was selling out of that country. He had a metal valve in his heart that clicked so loud you could hear it when you talked to him.

Originally Posted by lclund1946

My former backyard. Thought you might be familiar with the area. Montagnuse River where it meets the Peace River with the Clear Hills in the Background. My 100 yard target in bottom center of picture.
[IMG][/IMG]

Wow, talk about a million dollar view.