.............

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by trouty

that letter is funny, a group of residents is against us outfitters, what a news flash. The only reason a landowner would support an outfitter, is if they are on his payroll.

Compare that letter to the data residents have collected and presented, embarassing on their part. Good for us though, shows they are now desperate and worried.

It's rather sad they need to rely on their 5 year gov hand out, welfare in it's finest form. No other business in this province has the luxury of government supported 5 year guaranteed income. They need to stand on their own like the rest of us.

Please regale us with your expertise trouty ? What other sector of business in Alberta that depends on our natural resources are you refering too ? and I'm not sure which type of Welfare requires a several hundred thousand dollar investment ? Can you also please explain where an outfitter could sign up for this guarenteed income you speak of ???

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by trouty

that letter is funny, a group of residents is against us outfitters, what a news flash. The only reason a landowner would support an outfitter, is if they are on his payroll.

Compare that letter to the data residents have collected and presented, embarassing on their part. Good for us though, shows they are now desperate and worried.

It's rather sad they need to rely on their 5 year gov hand out, welfare in it's finest form. No other business in this province has the luxury of government supported 5 year guaranteed income. They need to stand on their own like the rest of us.

You would be very surprised to learn that most outfitters are landowners. Not trying take more, just keep what we have. Many wmu's may and should change as shown in
eer hunters "compiled" information, but many need no change. We are simply attempting to provide a service to a client, just like many of you. I agree that there needs to be a good look at apos and some members of the organization, that being said many resident outdoorsmen operate the same way. This is fair in my opinion.

[Lefty-Canuck]

If SRD would proactively manage and make changes on the fly to suit conditions then I think outfitters and residents, archery and rifle hunters could all get along. The problem is they have put up silos that pit groups against one another whether intentional or by accident.

If the outfitters thought they would be able to continue to operate business with a 5 year guarantee then they weren't paying attention to what goes on around the province and if residents figured that wait times weren't going to get longer and tags numbers dwindle then they weren't paying attention either...

LV

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Bowhunter102

SMA is totally different then a WMU. I bet if you show us the SMU and I bet it I within there rules.

You want to bet that they are at 3%?
As the 3% number is my interpretation of ESRD's rules for species under high resident demand (draw).

Outfitters try to hide behind the smoke of SMA's but big picture, they have 15% of the province wide tags. It all equates to too many allocations in some WMU's, as a SMA (species management area) is comprised of several WMU's (wildlife management area).

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Please regale us with your expertise trouty ? What other sector of business in Alberta that depends on our natural resources are you refering too ? and I'm not sure which type of Welfare requires a several hundred thousand dollar investment ? Can you also please explain where an outfitter could sign up for this guarenteed income you speak of ???

so...what you're saying then I think is...that because you over paid "hundreds of thousands of dollars" for your allocation, it is your perennial right to take as many animals as you can???...and to heck with the tax paying residents here??....am I right????

[trouty]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Please regale us with your expertise trouty ? What other sector of business in Alberta that depends on our natural resources are you refering too ? and I'm not sure which type of Welfare requires a several hundred thousand dollar investment ? Can you also please explain where an outfitter could sign up for this guarenteed income you speak of ???

so because you rely on our provincial resources you should get a 5yr guarantee on your allocations? When an o/g company buys a lease do they get a guarantee there is oil there? They drill at their risk, sometimes hit sometimes a dud. Should be no different, allocations reviewed and adjusted every year. There is risk in every business, should be no different. It costs lots of money to start a business with no guarantees, why are you so special?

And maybe outfitters own land, do you think they make a habit of opening it up to residents while they are out there with their clients?

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

You want to bet that they are at 3%?
As the 3% number is my interpretation of ESRD's rules for species under high resident demand (draw).

Outfitters try to hide behind the smoke of SMA's but big picture, they have 15% of the province wide tags. It all equates to too many allocations in some WMU's, as a SMA (species management area) is comprised of several WMU's (wildlife management area).

can't say your wrong but it seems to be more lik %3
to %5

[Rhino81]

Exploration companies generally base land sales on historic data and flow rates of a target formation. They may also explore the possibility of seismic data if a larger drilling program is in the mix. So that may help you understand.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by trouty

so because you rely on our provincial resources you should get a 5yr guarantee on your allocations? When an o/g company buys a lease do they get a guarantee there is oil there? They drill at their risk, sometimes hit sometimes a dud. Should be no different, allocations reviewed and adjusted every year. There is risk in every business, should be no different. It costs lots of money to start a business with no guarantees, why are you so special?

And maybe outfitters own land, do you think they make a habit of opening it up to residents while they are out there with their clients?

No oil and gas companies do not get a guarentee there is oil in the ground. They do however get a guarantee they can use said lease. Just like we have to still get clients their animals, no guarentee there.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

No oil and gas companies do not get a guarentee there is oil in the ground. They do however get a guarantee they can use said lease. Just like we have to still get clients their animals, no guarentee there.

So...when you are successful, do you pay the Gov't. a royalty????

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by hal53

so...what you're saying then I think is...that because you over paid "hundreds of thousands of dollars" for your allocation, it is your perennial right to take as many animals as you can???...and to heck with the tax paying residents here??....am I right????

Thousands of dollars maybe. Last I heard no one was paying hundreds of thousands.

And who said anything about taking as many animals as they can?

Lets not exaggerate here, it does nothing for the debate.

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by hal53

So...when you are successful, do you pay the Gov't. a royalty????

if you ever become successful are you going to pay royalties? Give me a brake a moose isn't a mineral for one.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Thousands of dollars maybe. Last I heard no one was paying hundreds of thousands.

And who said anything about taking as many animals as they can?

Lets not exaggerate here, it does nothing for the debate.

My apologies, he claimed the hundreds of thousands paid, my reference was to the allocation numbers as to the amount of animals taken,there are likely some that cut back in poor years, but I seriously doubt an outfitter is going to cancel a hunt when the numbers are low due to a harsh winter, once again, I will bow out of this thread now....

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

No oil and gas companies do not get a guarentee there is oil in the ground. They do however get a guarantee they can use said lease. Just like we have to still get clients their animals, no guarentee there.

Resident Albertans aren't out of oil and gas, sitting on the side of the road empty or freezing in our houses, because the oil companies sell disproportionate volumes to foreigners. There is plenty of oil and gas to go around so we share. There are 10 -20 + year waits for resident tags, so, IMO we need to re evaluate the sharing of these resources. And the policy is in place to deal with these problems, yet it has been ignored by our government.

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Resident Albertans aren't out of oil and gas, sitting on the side of the road empty or freezing in our houses, because the oil companies sell disproportionate volumes to foreigners. There is plenty of oil and gas to go around so we share. There are 10 -20 + year waits for resident tags, so, IMO we need to re evaluate the sharing of these resources. And the policy is in place to deal with these problems, yet it has been ignored by our government.

it is not that long of a wait for most species in 75% of the province. I have said it many times before, some areas need work but most are fine....so change them all just the same. Is that what your view on all this is?

[Bowhunter102]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

You want to bet that they are at 3%?
As the 3% number is my interpretation of ESRD's rules for species under high resident demand (draw).

Outfitters try to hide behind the smoke of SMA's but big picture, they have 15% of the province wide tags. It all equates to too many allocations in some WMU's, as a SMA (species management area) is comprised of several WMU's (wildlife management area).

"the actual % allocation at the SMA level will not normally be :
-Less than 3%
-More than 10% in draw situations"

I am quoting your post. When it comes to any laws or regs we all take full advantage. Resident are no different than outfitters or land owners. Don't sit here and blow smoke to hide reality. Like I said many times you guys keep posting up numbers of the worst year for animals in last 10 years to make it look so bad. I see only 5 zones that need a change.

[Bowhunter102]

Originally Posted by Rhino81

it is not that long of a wait for most species in 75% of the province. I have said it many times before, some areas need work but most are fine....so change them all just the same. Is that what your view on all this is?

He wants all your tags. Looks pretty plain to me. Does it not to you? Heck they want your landowner tag too. Plain greed.

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by Bowhunter102

"the actual % allocation at the SMA level will not normally be :
-Less than 3%
-More than 10% in draw situations"

I am quoting your post. When it comes to any laws or regs we all take full advantage. Resident are no different than outfitters or land owners. Don't sit here and blow smoke to hide reality. Like I said many times you guys keep posting up numbers of the worst year for animals in last 10 years to make it look so bad. I see only 5 zones that need a change.

so its really not that bad. Is it? I'm going to take a stab at this and i may be wrong but it seems like deer hunter and walking buffalo to name a few are bitter. They wait longer because they draw in one of the few zones that need help. So in an attempt to not seem self centered and selfish they are trying to make us all think it is the whole province that is in throuble and outfitters to blame? Am I close you think? If I'm wrong I apologize in advance. If pretty sure I'm right though!!

[Bowhunter102]

Originally Posted by Rhino81

so its really not that bad. Is it? I'm going to take a stab at this and i may be wrong but it seems like deer hunter and walking buffalo to name a few are bitter. They wait longer because they draw in one of the few zones that need help. So in an attempt to not seem self centered and selfish they are trying to make us all think it is the whole province that is in throuble and outfitters to blame? Am I close you think? If I'm wrong I apologize in advance. If pretty sure I'm right though!!

Bingo.... We have a winner. Your grand prize is two stirring the pot with all residents to take away all land owner/outfitter tags and make it so no non tridents can come here to give a 0.01% difference in draw stats.

[Lefty-Canuck]

You 2 clearly have a lack in reading comprehension skills...lol.

Point out where folks said ban outfitting and nonresidents altogether....if you have numbers to counter deerhunter then please post and explain them.

No one is saying ban outfitting and ban nonresidents, they are saying allow it in areas and for species where it can be sustained and it fits within the proper percent allocations.

Also a 5 year time frame before an allocation reset is way too long. No business operates with a 5 year guarantee....that is old school thinking.

LC

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Bowhunter102

Bingo.... We have a winner. Your grand prize is two stirring the pot with all residents to take away all land owner/outfitter tags and make it so no non tridents can come here to give a 0.01% difference in draw stats.

you bet Bingo!!!...nice to have it finally explained. The landowners can outfit and charge for access, while the resident waits 3-5 years to get a tag, Thank You!!!

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Bowhunter102

"the actual % allocation at the SMA level will not normally be :
-Less than 3%
-More than 10% in draw situations"

I am quoting your post. When it comes to any laws or regs we all take full advantage. Resident are no different than outfitters or land owners. Don't sit here and blow smoke to hide reality.

What you quoted is from the Alberta Outfitter-Guide Policy, not just my post.

Originally Posted by Bowhunter102

Like I said many times you guys keep posting up numbers of the worst year for animals in last 10 years to make it look so bad. I see only 5 zones that need a change.

Here are some more 10 year resident/nr draw numbers for you :

Trophy Antelope Draw, Applied in 2002: 10,636 applications
Trophy Antelope Draw, Applied in 2012: 27,631 applications

Antlered Mule Deer Draw, Applied in 2002: 37,909 applications
Antlered Mule Deer Draw, Applied in 2012: 64,780 applications

Antlered Moose Draw, Applied in 2002: 44,490 applications
Antlered Moose Draw, Applied in 2012: 62,691 applications

Do you see a trend here?

Im curious as to which 5 zones you think need a change?

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Bowhunter102

SMA is totally different then a WMU. I bet if you show us the SMU's numbers it Will be within there percentages.

Not if it is 15% overall it won't be.

[elkhunter11]

you bet Bingo!!!...nice to have it finally explained. The landowners can outfit and charge for access, while the resident waits 3-5 years to get a tag, Thank You!!!

I take is more as resident hunters don't matter, and game populations don't matter either, as long as the APOS members make their money. I didn't see APOS protesting when the resident tag numbers were cut drastically for some species, but now that they themselves are facing cuts, it is suddenly a huge tragedy. The residents did their part to conserve our game populations, by taking those cuts, now it time for APOS to accept some responsibility themselves, by taking some cuts.

[Bowhunter102]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

You 2 clearly have a lack in reading comprehension skills...lol.

Point out where folks said ban outfitting and nonresidents altogether....if you have numbers to counter deerhunter then please post and explain them.

No one is saying ban outfitting and ban nonresidents, they are saying allow it in areas and for species where it can be sustained and it fits within the proper percent allocations.

Also a 5 year time frame before an allocation reset is way too long. No business operates with a 5 year guarantee....that is old school thinking.

LC

While I was joking about all nr. I was and am not about them wanting to take and get rid of outfitter tags and landowner tags.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Rhino81

Exploration companies generally base land sales on historic data and flow rates of a target formation. They may also explore the possibility of seismic data if a larger drilling program is in the mix. So that may help you understand.

This made me chuckle. Rhino is going to help Hal understand oil exploration.

[Bowhunter102]

Originally Posted by hal53

you bet Bingo!!!...nice to have it finally explained. The landowners can outfit and charge for access, while the resident waits 3-5 years to get a tag, Thank You!!!

You are a special person Hal. Keep whining as you are gaining more access as you speak.

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

This made me chuckle. Rhino is going to help Hal understand oil exploration.

how is that funny I ask?

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by Bowhunter102

You are a special person Hal. Keep whining as you are gaining more access as you speak.

he does seem special!

[Lefty-Canuck]

If you guys would back your claims with numbers rather than insults I think we could have a more meaningful discussion. All you are doing is making yourselves look worse so please carry on.

LC