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  #121  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:31 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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The best rifle & cartrage is the units we own.

My cast boolitz loading is underway next month since there the best.

Best at frugal costs, best at cheap plinking, best at learning how to make quality boolitz, best at trying to hit the paper, and best left alone for folks that partake in good times.

The best is only the best to those that strive to achieve goals beyond their own abilities.

That's the best
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  #122  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:59 AM
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If you’re happy with 2000 fps impact velocity for 3rd class game(most are), the factory hornady 147 eld-m holds that to a little over 600 yards with a 10mph wind drift hold of only 18”. (.687 bc and .301 sd at just under 2700 fps rated)

All with about 3.5 ft/lbs less recoil energy than a 308 running 168’s at factory velocities.

Run the numbers on whatever it is you like, or are shooting currently, and see where your 2000 fps impact distance is, what the wind drift is and then recoil energy. Nothing will look better than that creedmoor load considering all three factors, and also that you can buy that off the shelf.
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  #123  
Old 11-14-2018, 12:09 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Next year's harvest is 30/06 lead boolitz.

Either the 210's or wadd-cutter 220's.

Lots of benefits with the 30 cal on up since we get the options of sleek and fast jacketed, or slow and bold door punchers. Ha

Lead rocks. It's the best.

https://youtu.be/k9LnqPSjY1A
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  #124  
Old 11-14-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
Next year's harvest is 30/06 lead boolitz.

Either the 210's or wadd-cutter 220's.

Lots of benefits with the 30 cal on up since we get the options of sleek and fast jacketed, or slow and bold door punchers. Ha

Lead rocks. It's the best.

https://youtu.be/k9LnqPSjY1A
Besides having more recoil than say a .284 bullet, what other benefits does a 30cal+ bullet have for the North American hunter?
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  #125  
Old 11-14-2018, 12:39 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Impressive, but i have a question.

To obtain those down range figures you indicate, what is the mv you would have to start that 147 ELD-M at with a CM?
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  #126  
Old 11-14-2018, 12:58 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Food in the freezer, or general fun plinking.

My rifle is heavy, so not much felt recoil in that department. Ha

The nice thing about the lead cast boolitz is that the 30/06 was designed around them when it first entered service in WW 1, at least they can fill in as a backup plan if the world goes sideways. Ha

The best is the firearm and caliber that each shooter gets to pick from, that's what really counts.
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  #127  
Old 11-14-2018, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Impressive, but i have a question.

To obtain those down range figures you indicate, what is the mv you would have to start that 147 ELD-M at with a CM?
I used hornady factory rated velocity of 2695 fps from a 24” barrel, deducted 35 fps and reduced published bc from .697 down to .687. I did that because when I actually chrony info and collect drop data and back calculate actual bc it’s never quite what is published. (Example I got 30 fps less than publishes from my Grendel and a back calculated bc of .49 instead of published .5)

Being realistic like that...the factory 6.5 cm load would hold a more realistic 2002 fps at 600 yards with 18.3” of wind drift at 10mph.

Hornady ballistic calculator, Calgary elevation and atmospheric plugged in.
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  #128  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:07 PM
Nyksta Nyksta is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
I used hornady factory rated velocity of 2695 fps from a 24” barrel, deducted 35 fps and reduced published bc from .697 down to .687. I did that because when I actually chrony info and collect drop data and back calculate actual bc it’s never quite what is published. (Example I got 30 fps less than publishes from my Grendel and a back calculated bc of .49 instead of published .5)

Being realistic like that...the factory 6.5 cm load would hold a more realistic 2002 fps at 600 yards with 18.3” of wind drift at 10mph.

Hornady ballistic calculator, Calgary elevation and atmospheric plugged in.
Your posts have always been about the effectiveness of bullets and cartridges for hunting shots, and not paper, so in keeping with all your previous energy and ballistics arguments, now you are promoting using non-expanding match bullets on game? Looks like your tunnel vision on getting the best ballistic calculator results has forgotten that an animal is on the other end of the shot when you are hunting. I dont care what your wind drift is or isnt if the bullet isnt ethical to make a kill. Give your head a shake. Maybe you should stop pushing the envelope with testing bullets performance with the animals as your live lab subjects and buy your meat at the grocery store.

Last edited by Nyksta; 11-14-2018 at 02:14 PM.
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  #129  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyksta View Post
Your posts have always been about the effectiveness of bullets and cartridges for hunting shots, and not paper, so in keeping with all your previous energy and ballistics arguments, now you are promoting using non-expanding match bullets on game? Looks like your tunnel vision on getting the best ballistic calculator results has forgotten that an animal is on the other end of the shot when you are hunting. I dont care what your wind drift is or isnt if the bullet isnt ethical to make a kill. Give your head a shake. Maybe you should stop pushing the envelope with testing bullets performance with the animals as your live lab subjects and buy your meat at the grocery store.
Quick question here,


Did you see the picture of his dead moose on the other thread?
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  #130  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:41 PM
Bubs11 Bubs11 is offline
 
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I believe the ELD-M are made with a thinner jacket than the ELD-X which actually may expand well at longer ranges not sure I'd want them close up though. Get facts right then talk trash
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  #131  
Old 11-14-2018, 03:17 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
What’s worse, the guy who always talks highly about the Creedmoor or the guy who alway has to say my gun is better? Same/Same, catch my drift?
What really gets tiring to me is the guy that always has to prove that his pet cartridge is better than yours or the 6.5 CM no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary. Or worse yet when he gets his nose out of joint when you present facts showing the truth about the down range ballistics or Point Blank Range of the pet cartridge.

I have taken flack on this and other sites when I presented my 20 EXTREME cartridge by people who get their nose out of joint because the facts I present seem to make them believe that I am running down their pet 20 Caliber. The fact is that it is what I claim it to be and I guess the design is too much like the modern 6.5 CM design for them to accept.

In 2009 I saw the potential of a 6.5 in the new 300 RCM as it had what I thought to have just the right capacity to get a 140 VLD bullet to 3000 fps+ with fairly low pressures compared to the 6.5 X 284. A few years later GAPercision came out with the 6.5 SAUM which had slightly more capacity but had the rebated rim which did not feed as well as the RCM case. In fact George Gardner states that for these reasons he should have used the 300 RCM case instead of the SAUM case. With his help Hornady designed the PRC on the 338 RCM case which is about 0.080" shorter at the shoulder. Ironically when the 6.5 PRC was first mentioned, on Accurate Shooter, the poster actually posted the dimensions of the 6.5 300RCM/6.5 EXTREME that Pacific Tool did for me. I can actually use the 6.5 PRC dies to "shoulder bump" a fired 6.5 EXTREME. If you go back over the posts I made on this forum you will see that comments by certain individuals are very similar to those made about the 6.5 CM. To those that still cling to the more powder =more pressure= more velocity concept I find it ironic that the 2-3 grain less capacity of the 6.5PRC is working better than the 6.5 EXTREME. Small changes in case design can make quite a difference in performance and who would have thought that smaller is better. Ironically the 6.5 PRC is going to become the darling of the PRS and other long range shooting disciplines, likely at the expense, of the 6.5 CM.

For those of you that cling to the belief that the 6.5 CM falls somewhere in between the 243 and 7mm-08 which are all smaller than the 308/30-06/300 win Mag and that 150 grain 30 caliber bullets are great performers I present the facts on this chart. If muzzle energy and recoil are the criteria they do win hands down but how many animals or enemy soldiers are killed by blast. If down range energy and mild recoil are the criteria than the 6.6 CM falls somewhere between the 30 calibers and the 7mm08/6.5 PRC. Yes even the 300 Win mag does not out perform the 6.5 PRC with Factory Ammunition in the under 150 grain class. George Gardner claims to have gotten 3100 fps with 147 ELD-X handloads in a 6.5 PRC with 26" barrel and I have posted my best handload for the 7mm-08 which is almost a ballistic twin to the 6.5 CM.
[IMG][/IMG]
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  #132  
Old 11-14-2018, 03:23 PM
Wrongside Wrongside is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Nyksta View Post
Your posts have always been about the effectiveness of bullets and cartridges for hunting shots, and not paper, so in keeping with all your previous energy and ballistics arguments, now you are promoting using non-expanding match bullets on game? Looks like your tunnel vision on getting the best ballistic calculator results has forgotten that an animal is on the other end of the shot when you are hunting. I dont care what your wind drift is or isnt if the bullet isnt ethical to make a kill. Give your head a shake. Maybe you should stop pushing the envelope with testing bullets performance with the animals as your live lab subjects and buy your meat at the grocery store.
The ELD-M has been building a very successful track record as a hunting bullet, especially so the 6.5 147. Pushed at 6.5CM/260/6.5x55 speeds, even in close, it holds up quite well.
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  #133  
Old 11-14-2018, 03:57 PM
Nyksta Nyksta is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Quick question here,


Did you see the picture of his dead moose on the other thread?
I did. I read the self proclaimed story that it was shot in the guts twice and then once in the head. And then a brag about how it was possibly the first moose in history to be killed by a 6.5 Grendel. So much for low recoil cartridges creating perfect non-flinching shooters who have better vital shot accuracy than magnumitus hunters. This self gratification cartridge headstamp ego trip is ridiculous.

Last edited by Nyksta; 11-14-2018 at 04:16 PM.
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  #134  
Old 11-14-2018, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
What really gets tiring to me is the guy that always has to prove that his pet cartridge is better than yours or the 6.5 CM no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary. Or worse yet when he gets his nose out of joint when you present facts showing the truth about the down range ballistics or Point Blank Range of the pet cartridge.

I have taken flack on this and other sites when I presented my 20 EXTREME cartridge by people who get their nose out of joint because the facts I present seem to make them believe that I am running down their pet 20 Caliber. The fact is that it is what I claim it to be and I guess the design is too much like the modern 6.5 CM design for them to accept.

In 2009 I saw the potential of a 6.5 in the new 300 RCM as it had what I thought to have just the right capacity to get a 140 VLD bullet to 3000 fps+ with fairly low pressures compared to the 6.5 X 284. A few years later GAPercision came out with the 6.5 SAUM which had slightly more capacity but had the rebated rim which did not feed as well as the RCM case. In fact George Gardner states that for these reasons he should have used the 300 RCM case instead of the SAUM case. With his help Hornady designed the PRC on the 338 RCM case which is about 0.080" shorter at the shoulder. Ironically when the 6.5 PRC was first mentioned, on Accurate Shooter, the poster actually posted the dimensions of the 6.5 300RCM/6.5 EXTREME that Pacific Tool did for me. I can actually use the 6.5 PRC dies to "shoulder bump" a fired 6.5 EXTREME. If you go back over the posts I made on this forum you will see that comments by certain individuals are very similar to those made about the 6.5 CM. To those that still cling to the more powder =more pressure= more velocity concept I find it ironic that the 2-3 grain less capacity of the 6.5PRC is working better than the 6.5 EXTREME. Small changes in case design can make quite a difference in performance and who would have thought that smaller is better. Ironically the 6.5 PRC is going to become the darling of the PRS and other long range shooting disciplines, likely at the expense, of the 6.5 CM.

For those of you that cling to the belief that the 6.5 CM falls somewhere in between the 243 and 7mm-08 which are all smaller than the 308/30-06/300 win Mag and that 150 grain 30 caliber bullets are great performers I present the facts on this chart. If muzzle energy and recoil are the criteria they do win hands down but how many animals or enemy soldiers are killed by blast. If down range energy and mild recoil are the criteria than the 6.6 CM falls somewhere between the 30 calibers and the 7mm08/6.5 PRC. Yes even the 300 Win mag does not out perform the 6.5 PRC with Factory Ammunition in the under 150 grain class. George Gardner claims to have gotten 3100 fps with 147 ELD-X handloads in a 6.5 PRC with 26" barrel and I have posted my best handload for the 7mm-08 which is almost a ballistic twin to the 6.5 CM.
[IMG][/IMG]
Awesome data, add a recoil energy column!
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****1000 Club****

The Unofficially Official DEER CLUB for BOWHUNTERS.
Any combination of deer species
P&Y measuring standards, Net Inches Only
Meeting the P&Y minimums to qualify
Up to 7 deer totalling 1000" or higher
1000 is Level 1, 2000, 3000...is attainable!

1000 Club w/6, also 700 Muley Club(w/bow), 1 deer away from 2000 Club!
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  #135  
Old 11-14-2018, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrongside View Post
The ELD-M has been building a very successful track record as a hunting bullet, especially so the 6.5 147. Pushed at 6.5CM/260/6.5x55 speeds, even in close, it holds up quite well.
Yes and before they called them eld-m they called them a-max and have been working great for the long range guys for quite awhile. The creedmoor and grendel run velocity ranges good for these bullets. If you’re a delayed expansion fan maybe go eld-x.

Nyksta reads what he wants to read apparently lol. I have witnesses to that liver damage but by that point no cameras were coming out, uncle wasn’t the type for pics and I was a little messy getting the liver for his cats at the end of gutless quartering duty. You can assume what you like but that moose wasn’t going anywhere and not to take away anything away from another killed just days before it also took a few shots and I believe all magnums and it not only went further but got in a bad spot and made for a bit of a recovery. Another friend shot a draw muley last week at 400, twice, 7 Weatherby and got two ends of it but neither fatal, out of bullets and a drive around to come in another way finished with a friends 264 win mag at more suitable ranges and still took two in boiler to finally drop. So count them...7 shots with two magnums to haul down a bull moose and a muley buck. My little bull was down in 15...the other bull was dead on his feet with exact same placement as mine so the other shots simply just trying to anchor as many do. Mine was going to lay down where it stopped. The other bull moose had a two hole group through liver so clearly not a lot of expansion. Mine looked like it was shot with a shot gun at 6’. Interestingly it seemed the bigger animal drew a lot more damage from my bullet than the small whitetail did. There’s definitely a balance there somewhere.
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The Unofficially Official DEER CLUB for BOWHUNTERS.
Any combination of deer species
P&Y measuring standards, Net Inches Only
Meeting the P&Y minimums to qualify
Up to 7 deer totalling 1000" or higher
1000 is Level 1, 2000, 3000...is attainable!

1000 Club w/6, also 700 Muley Club(w/bow), 1 deer away from 2000 Club!
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  #136  
Old 11-14-2018, 04:43 PM
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Just checking in again to see if the age old question “Which is better, 308 or 270” has been decided .....looks like maybe not. I’ll go out on a limb and suggest that almost every bottleneck design cartridge can be made to shoot with impressive accuracy ... assuming it is properly prepped and fired from a properly twisted, good barrel chambered by a competent “smith”. What may have been overlooked in the equation is that some bullets perform best within a given range of velocity / barrel time. Sometimes an extra (or less) 50-100fps MV results in degrading the “accuracy”. Sometimes, there is another positive node higher up, sometimes not. I have load tested a fair number of bullets and anecdotally can say that more often than not, best accuracy was not found at max muzzle velocity.
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  #137  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:41 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Just checking in again to see if the age old question “Which is better, 308 or 270” has been decided .....looks like maybe not. I’ll go out on a limb and suggest that almost every bottleneck design cartridge can be made to shoot with impressive accuracy ... assuming it is properly prepped and fired from a properly twisted, good barrel chambered by a competent “smith”. What may have been overlooked in the equation is that some bullets perform best within a given range of velocity / barrel time. Sometimes an extra (or less) 50-100fps MV results in degrading the “accuracy”. Sometimes, there is another positive node higher up, sometimes not. I have load tested a fair number of bullets and anecdotally can say that more often than not, best accuracy was not found at max muzzle velocity.
I had to pick the 308 over the 270 for good reasons,,, mind you I liked the 270's I've owned over the years. Both are awesome cartrages with nill for recoil like my 30/06.

Any how, I could of gone the 6.5 route since the reviews looked good on it, but my F Class rig is built on a 308 winchester format. Plus they are pretty close over all at shooting critters and paper V rings at distance,,, the 18 lb fun gun is very capable for competion matches.

So I picked up a extra 308 to help keep everything the same, when the 30/06 barrel is burnt out,,, it gets a 308 barrel to,,, nothing like owning 2 long distance shooting with 1 hunter class to the mix.

All Three 308's use the same powder, bullets, cases, primers all at the same ft-per seconds,,, deffinatly a win win when keeping everything the same.

Plus they will be collecter items worth millions of dollars once they become obsolete next year.

Vintage class firearms only incress in value. Ha

I can load them hot, cold or medium pet load,,, I do this alot since burning powder, launching boolitz is what I do pretty much ever day.

Day 160 of hunting the North this year.

Had I not jumped into the 30 caliber category, then I would of most likely ended up in the 7mm line up since it was my second on the list. 3rd was the 270.

The old school 30 is nothing special, it gets the job done, not the best nor the worst,,, its an ok round for good times,,, just like every other cartrage out there.

Would it make sense to add a 6.5 to my shooting needs when I already own 3 other 30 caliber rifles,,, for some people yes,,, for me is a no.

Why would I want a odd ball in my gun room when I just cleaned house 3 years ago to standardized everything.

Ain't going to happen in my world.

And,,,, what can I not do with my 30/06 that I can't do with both of my 308's or any other cartrage out there.

Can I harvest critters up close or a bit past that mark,,, sure I can.
Can I shoot long range and hit the 5" V ring at 900 meters, yes'er, very do-able.
Can I have fun at our local gun range with "ALL" the other shooters that stop in,,, you bet yha.
And can I spend all year hunting in Northern Alberta for the full season and some,,, Yuppers.

The only gun that works for me is the one in my hands, I could care less what unit it is.
So long as I have 400+ rounds,,, guaranteed I'm going to have some fun. LOL.

Whoops, we just heard Thunder in the Valley an hour ago, got to run since good times happen to those that spend time in the wilds

Captain 308 on my waaaaay. Ha
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  #138  
Old 11-14-2018, 08:12 PM
marky_mark marky_mark is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Nyksta View Post
I did. I read the self proclaimed story that it was shot in the guts twice and then once in the head. And then a brag about how it was possibly the first moose in history to be killed by a 6.5 Grendel. So much for low recoil cartridges creating perfect non-flinching shooters who have better vital shot accuracy than magnumitus hunters. This self gratification cartridge headstamp ego trip is ridiculous.
Don’t forget the shot in the ass
So that makes it 4/4 for poor shot placement

At 125 yards
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  #139  
Old 11-14-2018, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyksta View Post
I did. I read the self proclaimed story that it was shot in the guts twice and then once in the head. And then a brag about how it was possibly the first moose in history to be killed by a 6.5 Grendel. So much for low recoil cartridges creating perfect non-flinching shooters who have better vital shot accuracy than magnumitus hunters. This self gratification cartridge headstamp ego trip is ridiculous.
I read the same story. Incredulous here their take-away was how effective the cartridge is????
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  #140  
Old 11-14-2018, 09:10 PM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is online now
 
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Don’t forget the shot in the ass
So that makes it 4/4 for poor shot placement

At 125 yards
Probably someone wrote someplace that “ it is so accurate that the user don’t even have to aim, just point and shoot”.
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  #141  
Old 11-14-2018, 09:32 PM
marky_mark marky_mark is online now
 
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Probably someone wrote someplace that “ it is so accurate that the user don’t even have to aim, just point and shoot”.
Who cares about bullet hits.

As long as the B.C. and sd are good. You know to the ounce how much your gun weighs with your sling and ammo. And as long as it has less than 10 ft/lbs of recoil.

Bullet placement is irrelevant. That’s for us magnum users to worry about.
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  #142  
Old 11-14-2018, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by marky_mark View Post
Don’t forget the shot in the ass
So that makes it 4/4 for poor shot placement

At 125 yards
Lol, only 3, first one did the trick, went 15 yards, stopped, came back a couple yards, unsteady. Moose are not elk, I could have easily just watched him go down. Responsible was to shoot till down...you don’t agree with that eh? Nine year tag, was not messing around just to come here and say one and done. I’ll happily and quietly go away and keep on killing just fine as nothing more needs to be said. It’s ok guys, someone walked the walk...the relentless butt hurt is all I’m hearing now. I’m sure you’ll get over it.✌️
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Any combination of deer species
P&Y measuring standards, Net Inches Only
Meeting the P&Y minimums to qualify
Up to 7 deer totalling 1000" or higher
1000 is Level 1, 2000, 3000...is attainable!

1000 Club w/6, also 700 Muley Club(w/bow), 1 deer away from 2000 Club!
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