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  #31  
Old 07-22-2017, 06:43 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Robmcleod82 View Post
Your son must eat his wheaties! Do you load some lighter ammo for him?
Nope. He is funny. He likes to shoot and will shoot whatever is handy. My oldest isn't that way and I'm careful how much recoil I let him deal with.
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  #32  
Old 07-22-2017, 08:24 PM
huntingfamily huntingfamily is offline
 
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Great post again, 260 Rem.
That helps a lot of us with shooting techniques off the bench.
Thanks!
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  #33  
Old 07-22-2017, 08:56 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 270person View Post
Do you play with barrel harmonics at all 260? I've read some interesting articles about why we typically get those triangular patterns and I've spoken to folks who swear by tuners.
Never tried a tuner. Have a buddy that has tried them on RimFire and think he would say they are not a substitute for a good barrel. I have looked at the theory for using them, and settled on ...it is just as easy to tune a load that works. I suspect most of my triangular patterns are the result of something I was responsible for ...be it with the loading, the hold, just a bad guess on a bit of wind.
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  #34  
Old 07-22-2017, 09:06 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Originally Posted by huntingfamily View Post
Great post again, 260 Rem.
That helps a lot of us with shooting techniques off the bench.
Thanks!
Still hoping to ferret out the successful techniques that others use. Another "tip" for benching sporters is to make sure the forestock sling stud is well forward of the rest ... and that the rear stud is not sitting up on the bag. Also a good idea to insure the sling is not between the stock and front rest when setting up.
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  #35  
Old 07-22-2017, 11:14 PM
AlbertaAl AlbertaAl is offline
 
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Default Bench shooting SPORTERS

Most sporter rifle stocks don't have a FLAT forestock bottom and are instead rounded making them easily roll in a sandbag or pedestal style front system.
I use a "benchrest" (LOW model) HARRIS bi-pod which is attached to the front swivel stud and keeps the rifle square on target.

I've fitted almost all my stocks with under forestock aluminum rails. These have been installed professionally by REMPLE.
In conjunction with the rails I purchased the REMPLE aluminum bi-pod.
Again, the bi-pod keeps the rifle square to target.

My postioning on the bench includes positioning the rifle as low as possible to the table top. I NEVER touch the forestock. The rear stock is in a quality firm sandbag, I use a hard hold by leaning into the rifle stock and securing it with my my spread out thumb and forefinger with the loose hand. The palm of my shooting hand is "very lightly" wrapped around the pistol grip. I found a tight grip causes poor groups.

I always shoot one or two fowlers at the start since I always go with a freshly cleaned barrel. During the shooting process I avoid over-heating the barrel.
My ammunition is kept away from the direct sun. I seldom go to the range with just one rifle...rotating rifles keeps me from being bored and gives rifles ample time to stay cool.

Vertical groups are my biggest dilemna... lots of variables to choose from and can be frustrating but that's just another reason to go back to the range with new reloads and do more testing !
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  #36  
Old 07-22-2017, 11:56 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Some really good points made AlbertaAl...the first being the rounded shape of the typical sporter which indeed, makes the rig more sucestible to torque roll. This can be mitigated to some extent by "shaping" the saddle on the front rest to conform to the shape of the stock. Sand filled saddles work much better than the less compact "corn" type fillers. Attention also needs to be given to insure the saddle sits firmly on the front rest and resists "tipping" as the forestock moves back under recoil. If the Velcro fasteners do not hold it absolutely solid....use black electrical tape to secure it against tipping.
Or, get a Rempel bipod
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2017, 06:10 AM
AlbertaAl AlbertaAl is offline
 
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Default SPORTER Rifles at the BENCH

Frontal sandbags are excellent - if you're shooting just one rifle.

I rotate my shooting time at the gunrange with different rifles. Too much time can be wasted forming the sandbag to the different stock contours.Hence, I prefer the use of a mechanical bi-pod.

Takes 30 seconds at the most reloacte a bi-pod from one rifle to the next.
Or, each rifle sits with one already attached.
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:15 AM
AlbertaAl AlbertaAl is offline
 
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Default practice with rimfire

I credit my improved benchrest shooting by practicing with a scoped target .22rimfire @ 50 yards. When those 5 or 10 shot groups start getting tighter then I know I'm on the right track.
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  #39  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Regarding forearm hold. Not touching the forearm eliminates the potential for varying hold pressures to result in inconsistency down-range. I have found that in order to keep groups to about 1/2 MOA, I need to stay off the forestock. For me, that degree of consistency is necessary for load development and Range practice. Many do not consider that level of Range consistency as a requisite for hunting applications. To each their own.
Any "tips" on what works?
This ^^^^^^

I have lots of sporter rifle in various calibers and I never use any pressure at all on the forend just the trigger......The guys on TV with their hands on the scopes are NOT doing it correctly...JM2C
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:45 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Know...at+Forend.html
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  #41  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:09 AM
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Dick284 Dick284 is offline
 
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I think the confusion is around what does "benching a gun" mean to you?

If you've ever watched a benchrest shooter or an ftr shooter you'd understand where 260 Rem is coming from.

If all you're exposed to is flogging rounds over a pack or truck hood you'll see where Chuck is coming from.

Two separate rest off a prepared bench from a controlled setting is where 260 Rem is coming from. It's great for wringing out that last little bit of accuracy to truely see if "load A" is better than "load B", but in no way is it anything you'll ever do out in the field, it's actually about as far from anything you'll ever do while out in the field(except some gopher fields I'd suspect).

I'm a cross arm shooter while on the bench except for a couple fairly heavy kicking lighter weight sporters I've owned. But in no way is it a definative must do. I've watched fellows like Bushrat and Rugersingle shoot some pretty amazing groups utilizing fore end gripping while on the bench, or even a hand over top of the scope holds as well.

It boils down to doing it the same way every time you do pull the trigger.

Thumb position on the grip must be consistent, pressure into your shoulder must be consistant, forearm of the stock starting the same on the front rest every time. No sling swivel interference on the front or rear rest every time, talcum powder on the front and rear rests to give a consistent slide during recoil, same grip with the same down pressure on the fore end or the scope every time.

And if all you do is shoot from the bench that takes a certain mind set and even for me a lot of trigger time to ease back into the "groove"

It's the same for every aspect of shooting, try getting back to your form shooting unsupported offhand, when it might have been 2 or 3 months without a lot of trigger time, you'll drive yourself bonkers trying to find your "groove" once again.... it frustrates to no end.


My best suggestion is spend more time shooting and less time typing, but alas something's are easier said than done.
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Last edited by Dick284; 07-24-2017 at 02:27 AM.
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  #42  
Old 07-24-2017, 07:57 AM
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https://youtu.be/4yo6IkplgqU
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  #43  
Old 07-24-2017, 08:00 AM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Good article. Thanks for posting.
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  #44  
Old 07-24-2017, 08:38 AM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Pretty much everything that works in "formal" front rest also works in modified form from the top of a fence post or over a pack. Every shooter wants to do their best or they wouldn't bother putting up paper or looking for a rock. And there is no doubt that understanding/practicing "bench" techniques improves field positions whether they be from the top of a fence post or over a pack. OK, back on track to share some bench tips?
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  #45  
Old 07-24-2017, 09:45 AM
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Thumb position on the grip must be consistent, pressure into your shoulder must be consistant, forearm of the stock starting the same on the front rest every time. No sling swivel interference on the front or rear rest every time, talcum powder on the front and rear rests to give a consistent slide during recoil, same grip with the same down pressure on the fore end or the scope every time(if you hold this way).

Proper bags and rests, with proper fill, soft and sloppy adds frustration, full and hard is the way to go.

Caldwell bags and rest are poorly filled with the wrong material, and I've seen guys shrink their groups when using firm sand filled bags and rest tops(and that's just regular sand imagine if it was the heavy stuff the br guys use)
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  #46  
Old 07-24-2017, 10:24 AM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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A big "second that" make'em hard rear bag advice given by Dick. Would add that it is important to make sure you do something with the bottom of the bag to make sure it sits flat ... to avoid any "rocking" motion under recoil. And, as importantly, to make it possible to get a consistant re-set.
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  #47  
Old 07-24-2017, 12:17 PM
qwert qwert is offline
 
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Default parallax error

Consistency is the foundation of accuracy.
The body and support to firearm interface is an important variable.
However, the most basic factor of accuracy is target alignment with bore, (actually ballistic trajectory) and this is totally dependent on the proper use of alignment aids (sighting system).
A shooter cannot hit what they cannot accurately see.

Open iron sighting system accuracy is largely dependant on sight radius, and the shooter’s ability to see, acquire and maintain an accurate hold of front sight position on the target.

Optical sighting systems vastly increase what a shooter can see, and facilitate accurate shooting at much longer ranges, but they introduce other variables that have large effect on target alignment with the ballistic trajectory.
Optical sighting systems are necessarily positioned some distance from the bore, which increases the effect of improper sight alignment (ie cant error) with the ballistic trajectory.
Optical quality varies widely but none is perfect, and in addition to optical distortion of the target image, parallax error from improper optical alignment of target image with the optical reticle (equivalent of the front sight) can be very problematic..
Better quality optical systems provide means to manually adjust and correct parallax error, but these add complexity, cost and weight, can increase the opportunity for operator error, and are frequently disfavoured by hunters whose target ranges do not vary much or require much accuracy.

Parallax error can be easily checked by varying the shooters eye position relative to the scope tube and observing how the reticle moves on the target image. This sight alignment error is often a large contributor to POA vs POI, and especially with typically average quality hunting scopes, can easily be several inches at 100 and much more at longer ranges.

When shooting with a scope without parallax adjustment, it is vitally important to achieve consistent and repeatable eye to scope alignment. IMHE the best way to do this is to ‘center the image in the tube’. I suggest using a scope to eye distance that produces a consistent (there is that word again) thin black ring between the scope image and the inside of the scope tube.

Good Luck, YMMV.
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  #48  
Old 07-24-2017, 09:50 PM
AlbertaAl AlbertaAl is offline
 
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Default trigger ?

Reduce "flinching" with a quality trigger.
All my rifles have upgraded triggers being 2lbs or less or having a SET trigger.
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  #49  
Old 08-11-2017, 06:23 AM
AlbertaAl AlbertaAl is offline
 
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Default "groups" vertical stringing

I've had "bullet groups" result in vertical stringing problems with numerous rifles and have found the problem to be with my set-up.
Controlling front rifle jump reduces vertical stringing.
I've looked closer at my placement of the front bag which should be located rearward as possible so that the front of the rifle is balanced well over the bag.
In my case I use mechanical front rests. The HARRIS bi-pod attaches to the swivel stud so I have no opportunity to choose a different mount location.
I found that leaning into the rifle (loading the bi-pod with shoulder pressure) has really helped as compared to no shoulder pressure.
Problem with the HARRIS bi-pod is that it will slide forward on the bench with too much shoulder pressure so I've clamped a crossbeam to my shooting table that is a stopper for the bi-pod.
In the case of my REMPLE bi-pod, it attaches to an under rail on the forestock allowing me to mount it as far rearward as I want. Much better ....
I'm also reducing the amount of sand in my rear bag as it's too hard and doesn't conform to the bottom of the stock well enough.
Hope my thoughts might help somone else.
-AL
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