Subsistence hunting- OFFICIAL thread

[Winch101]

The time is ripe for massive change in the FN structure . Bring it into
This century at least .

We have to get on our MPs in Ottawa , so that the Conservatives know,
There is opposition to the continuance of Treaty regulations . Change
Is needed . Write to yours today .

Never mind Suffield ,there are a multitude of examples of native
Atrocities committed on Wildlife . No one is or was punished.

Truths ....nobody wants anybody to go hungry in this country

The idea that today's Hunting aboriginals are carrying out
some sort of tradition ...is hogwash

For the most part it is grudge killing .

These are crucial times , if the Liberals are elected federally
Irreparable damage will be done to this country . Remember
The special needs people have the power they have
Because of 30 yrs of Liberal spine less wonders.

Light a fire under those G&F clubs in your area . Tell them
Nap time is over.

Remmy 300,s post # 692 is about as true an example of what
Is going on out there . Donut sucking fish and wildlife
Useless. You pay them ,might as well burn that money
On the ground .

Actually we need a United Canadian Hunter fund to pursue legal
Action against anyone who breeches the Wildlife acts . Natives
The slightest bend , to court . Quit relying on the judicial system
To many left over liberals .

Notice I say nothing about Alberta PC govt . I'm out of synonyms
For useless. They are so sad . I'm tired of writing to Kyle
He won't last a year ....

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Do you think the current harvest is more than what you are suggesting?

I'm not sure but doesn't a certain group in native cultures do most of the hunting for the whole band?

If that is the case would it not make more sense just to give the band X amount of tags per year?

I doubt there is that much taken, and it's the whole premis of my idea. It will not have any effect on the ones who are currently not abusing their rights, only the ones that are. It's not meant as a form of punishment but a form of prevention.

Giving each band x amount of tags is exactly the way I'd do it if I was in charge. This way everyones needs are taken care of. The FN who choose not to live on the reserve can get licenses like the rest of us.

Doesn't seem like an evil plan to me.

[SmokinJoe]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Really? Lol.

The thread is still progressing, I'm still keeping it civil and making valid points. I realize I am casting FN harvesting rights in a bad light, you have to understand that is my intention. As a non FN Canadian I don't agree with unlimited and unregulated hunting. I'm not breaking any rules nor am I being disrespectful to any member. I don't think it's your place to tell me to move on just because I'm making a good case not in your favor.

The only thing you have made a case for is....... Hang on I'm looking for it...... Yup Not a darn thing. You have said the same crap over and over again and there's nothing anywhere to back any of it up, other than a few made up stories. The same 5 people keep backing up your terrible thought process, and it's gotten old,

The mods asked for guys to move on and let others in to take over... Clearly that was a farce,

Next deal is mark my word within the next 10 years you will have to get your tags from an indian controlled outfit. Personally saw the framework for it. This morning... If that thought makes you mad, wait till it kicks in. Look at bc... Trust me it's coming.

[Moderating Team]

If you havent been able to articulate yourself based on writing 12% of the total posts in this 700+ posts thread you never will. You have made your point, now move on!

and no Joe this wasnt a farce.................next post will be tell told now wont it!

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Really? Lol.

The thread is still progressing, I'm still keeping it civil and making valid points. I realize I am casting FN harvesting rights in a bad light, you have to understand that is my intention. As a non FN Canadian I don't agree with unlimited and unregulated hunting. I'm not breaking any rules nor am I being disrespectful to any member. I don't think it's your place to tell me to move on just because I'm making a good case not in your favor.

[Moderating Team]

to add clarity if you did not review previous pages.............
and more chance of someone taking a vacay vs closing thread.

Originally Posted by Moderating Team

This is getting very tiring and to the point of futility. If this is how the thread is going to continue, it would be a shame that is closed down when a person cant get a word in edgewise due to a select few being argumentative and overbearing, so this is you que to move on.......

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Next deal is mark my word within the next 10 years you will have to get your tags from an indian controlled outfit. Personally saw the framework for it. This morning... If that thought makes you mad, wait till it kicks in. Look at bc... Trust me it's coming.

Who's going to enforce your plan?

You coming on my land and telling me I can't hunt would be like me going on your reserve and telling you you can't hunt.

Good luck with that.

I've proved that unlimited and unregulated harvesting rights are no longer needed and are an outdated part of the treaties no longer needed for the survival of the FN people or vital to the preservation of their culture. If they truely were worried about preserving their culture, hunting wouldn't consist of a jacked up ford and a high powered rifle, that kinda blows that theory out of the water.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by Moderating Team

If you havent been able to articulate yourself based on writing 12% of the total posts in this 700+ posts thread you never will. You have made your point, now move on!

and no Joe this wasnt a farce.................next post will be tell told now wont it!

I think he has made his point, but there is still a few things to be worked out and or answered, at least he was trying to offer solutions, as opposed to just complaining, it unfortunate that he was suspended when Joe said he was out but keeps coming back to stir the pot some more. It's to bad this thread is dieing because a select few have complained about where it is heading.

[wwbirds]

Not sure anything will be accomplished. if wildlife is endangered to the point of restricting harvest as Walking Buffalo mentioned 18 pages ago all meat and sport hunting will be shut down before native restrictions can be implemented. It is entrenched in the charter and we will probably see the implementation in Manitoba soon. Many other reasons it will not happen.

A cull hunt at Suffield or even cypress hills is not considered true hunting. I have seen a native hunting party come to cypress in orange coveralls and they were some of the most efficient hunters I have seen. While many other hunters lined the roads on Graburn and other coulees these guys were in and all around the various coulees in a push and block formation. Nothing was wasted and they filled a trailer with elk. Probably 8-12 young hunters hunting for the whole band. Suspect Suffield is exactly the same scenario maybe same players. Not the norm for sustenance hunting, this is a cull.

We have many indications on this forum that some non natives consider the natives inferior so will not discuss or negotiate what they feel is rightfullly something they are equally or rightfully entitled to.
Treaty rights werent written by natives but they sure arent going to sit down to assume the position they should lose anything.

If you think everyone in Canada is born equal you are either naive or uneducated. Natives women people with disabilities and visible minorities have been affected by societies prejudice for over a century.
People money get educated, people without money have to work harder tpo get an education and people in poverty seldom get an education without a hand up (not to be confused with a handout. Most natives are borninto poverty or at the very least the working class. Even with an education getting employment in the past has been difficult due to the "stigma" of being native. Many inherent native customs make it difficult for natives to do well at job interviews or even resumes.

We have another difficulty in negotiating. Every time a group of people sit down with natives and say we want to negotiate they get taken so there is an inherent distrust that negotiations will only better only the other sides positon. yes it is a us and them situation because that is what history has shown will happen.
Giving and taking is truly according to ones perspective. natives have been given the shaft on reserves, indian act, prejudiced indian agents, residential schools, abusive priests and nuns, small pox infected blankets and many other situations where someone said taking your children 700 miles away will be good for you.

natives have been taken for their land, customs, in many causes their language, religion and social values etc etc etc so federal payments and rights are not negotiable.
If you doubt this check into Temagami band claims in Ontario where the Federal government funded the band with 10 million dollars a year to fight the Province of Ontario for ancestral hunting and fishing grounds.
Like Walking Buffalo said many pages ago "we dont want to open some cans of worms"

[Diesel.1974]

Much of the argument is in relation to FN "right" to hunt vs non FN's "privilege" to hunt. So my question is, If an FN is convicted of an offences under the wild act can their sentence include a hunting suspension? Or will a provincial suspension be in contradiction of the federal treaty? But if a suspension is possible in these circumstances what makes an FN's "right" so different than a "privilege" if they can be both removed by a court order.

When my ancestors land in the maritimes in the late 1600's hunting and fishing was neither a "right" or privilege", it was a way life required for survival. All of our cultures come from a background of hunters and gathers and when my ancestor guaranteed the Native people that they could maintain their heritage and rituals, no where in those treaties did it say we would give up ours. There has to be a fair and equal solution somewhere but I don't think we are there yet. Let's hope we find it before it is too late.

[Winch101]

While looking at American treaty rights hunting situations
I found this little gem .....about Canada

I am all straight now ..


http://canadian-lawyers.ca/Understan...ng-Rights.html

Important to note the first lawyer highlighted bottom of page
Has likely been counsel for most Indian Band versus any Govt
Didputes in the west , the firm likely has millions of your tax dollars
Squirrelled away . Enjoy

[billie]

Take out the abuses as examples and a point can be made. Focusing on only the sensational incidents does not amount to much IMO. It isn’t acceptable by the MSM but I guess it’s OK when you want to win.

As far as I know, there is no mention of sustenance hunting within the treaties. The right to hunt is “priority access” to the resource. That, to me, can mean meat to eat, a hide to cure and process into a product to sell, and even antlers to sell. Meat alone is not the only value in the animal and exchanging the balance for “sugar & flour”, the other things required to prosper, is part of that right. Maybe even a TV, or is that considered too much prosperity? Boy, those FN people really got the best side of the Canada deal, didn’t they.

Does anyone even have an idea of the prices of vegetables in the northern part of the country? Does anyone know what the average incomes are for typical FN peoples, not just the over-publicized chief salaries? A new truck, god forbid, maybe they should only get second hand trucks. Maybe the lifted truck is one of the young guys from the rigs coming home to hunt for Gramma & Grampa?

WWB just reiterated the case for a team of hunters hunting for the band. Not for a minute would I think that would be abuse. I would organize the same way to feed a large group. You cannot focus only on the optics without knowing all the facts. But that is the AO way.

This thread is the definition of what AO has become. The “playground” mentality is alive and well. One person gets on a rant and a few add their support so the first believes the majority of the land agrees with them. The arguments are predominantly taken from the worst scenarios that can be raised while ignoring the fact that very similar situations exist from their side of the discussion. The actual issue is lost.

The moderators made a decision to allow this topic, with warnings, and I have to wonder, if they still think it was a good idea. I watched and read this thread for 2 reasons.

I don’t think many really caught what Catinthehat stated in his exit. IMO, he wasn’t pushed out by bullies, he escaped the members of AO because by staying he was endorsing the content here.

I have one more post to make.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Kurt. Mods said it was getting old. Move on, I did

Lol. No you didn't, you're still here!

[Don K]

Originally Posted by crownb

I think he has made his point, but there is still a few things to be worked out and or answered, at least he was trying to offer solutions, as opposed to just complaining, it unfortunate that he was suspended when Joe said he was out but keeps coming back to stir the pot some more. It's to bad this thread is dieing because a select few have complained about where it is heading.

X2! I didn't see a single thing Kurt did wrong to justify a time out... Kind of a joke! Seems that if there was any mud slinging it wasn't by him. To bad...

[Smokinyotes]

X3. I feel Kurt had some very valid points. Unless I missed something, which I don't think I did I don't think he deserved a time out.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Don K

X2! I didn't see a single thing Kurt did wrong to justify a time out... Kind of a joke! Seems that if there was any mud slinging it wasn't by him. To bad...

Did Kurt get banned??????

[Winch101]

What part of .......the greater per centage of Canadians believe
130 year old treaties shouldn't be valid . FN people should live like other
People in this country ,get an education , get a job , get on with life .
Own a house .....join a civilized society . What the price of vegetables
In the north has to do with the squandering of billions of dollars provided
By the brunt of hard working Canadians ,is beyond me . Citizens of this country
Are tired of bring spat on by aboriginals who feel hard done by .
As some of their smarter chiefs say .....take a little responsibility
For yourself .
I sincerely doubt people are going to stand by and watch the wildlife
In this country be slaughtered under the guise of sustenance hunting
Which is a crock of bull in this day and age .
They are just a part of the huge entitlement problem in this country .
There doesn't seem to be a cure for the apathy of Canadian hunters
When they are being robbed blind . I agree with Joe , this will come to a
A head ,and you know Canada's international reputation in dealing with
Aboriginals is not good ......ask any UN observer .

[Full Curl Earl]

Did mods seriously ban Kurt? After Smokinjoe uses the term "crap", calls him a liar and threatens him with having to get tags from First Nations?
Can someone provide some reasoning? This has a bad smell to it, maybe something was said and removed that we can no longer see here?
If not, somethings amis?
Smokinjoe just drew a line in the sand that is unacceptable, he needs to go away.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Winch101

What part of .......the greater per centage of Canadians believe
130 year old treaties shouldn't be valid . FN people should live like other
People in this country ,get an education , get a job , get on with life .
Own a house .....join a civilized society . What the price of vegetables
In the north has to do with the squandering of billions of dollars provided
By the brunt of hard working Canadians ,is beyond me . Citizens of this country
Are tired of bring spat on by aboriginals who feel hard done by .
As some of their smarter chiefs say .....take a little responsibility
For yourself .
I sincerely doubt people are going to stand by and watch the wildlife
In this country be slaughtered under the guise of sustenance hunting
Which is a crock of bull in this day and age .
They are just a part of the huge entitlement problem in this country .
There doesn't seem to be a cure for the apathy of Canadian hunters
When they are being robbed blind . I agree with Joe , this will come to a
A head ,and you know Canada's international reputation in dealing with
Aboriginals is not good ......ask any UN observer .

Not sure what this post has to with the topic of this thread......you're lucky I'm not a mod..

[sakogreywolf]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Did Kurt get banned??????

No not banned.......apparently a suspension. (I think)

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

X3. I feel Kurt had some very valid points. Unless I missed something, which I don't think I did I don't think he deserved a time out.

I did not see anything suspension worthy either. In fact, I thought Kurt did his absolute best to present his points in a respectful matter.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Seriously, I was told by a few of the mods in private message as well as in person the reason that it's taking 20 of you to argue with me is because collectively...... Posts like this confirm that

A hint?

LC

[boonie]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Next deal is mark my word within the next 10 years you will have to get your tags from an indian controlled outfit. Personally saw the framework for it. This morning... If that thought makes you mad, wait till it kicks in. Look at bc... Trust me it's coming.

If this does come to be I bet poaching will become rampant because how will they enforce that? They can't stop all the poaching going on now. Also I think that might bring some court cases for discrimination if someone really wants to pursue it.

Also if there is actual framework for that I think it would be nice if "Alberta Outdoorsmen" would do a story on it.

I too believe that there should be some way of keeping track of the game taken by subsistence hunters. How can you manage wildlife without it?

I have been following this thread very closely and I too did not see any reason for Kurt to be banned. I agreed with lots of his points as I think so do a lot of other people. Maybe we should have a survey on who wants changes and who doesn't.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Not sure anything will be accomplished. if wildlife is endangered to the point of restricting harvest as Walking Buffalo mentioned 18 pages ago all meat and sport hunting will be shut down before native restrictions can be implemented. It is entrenched in the charter and we will probably see the implementation in Manitoba soon. Many other reasons it will not happen.

A cull hunt at Suffield or even cypress hills is not considered true hunting. I have seen a native hunting party come to cypress in orange coveralls and they were some of the most efficient hunters I have seen. While many other hunters lined the roads on Graburn and other coulees these guys were in and all around the various coulees in a push and block formation. Nothing was wasted and they filled a trailer with elk. Probably 8-12 young hunters hunting for the whole band. Suspect Suffield is exactly the same scenario maybe same players. Not the norm for sustenance hunting, this is a cull.

We have many indications on this forum that some non natives consider the natives inferior so will not discuss or negotiate what they feel is rightfullly something they are equally or rightfully entitled to.
Treaty rights werent written by natives but they sure arent going to sit down to assume the position they should lose anything.

If you think everyone in Canada is born equal you are either naive or uneducated. Natives women people with disabilities and visible minorities have been affected by societies prejudice for over a century.
People money get educated, people without money have to work harder tpo get an education and people in poverty seldom get an education without a hand up (not to be confused with a handout. Most natives are borninto poverty or at the very least the working class. Even with an education getting employment in the past has been difficult due to the "stigma" of being native. Many inherent native customs make it difficult for natives to do well at job interviews or even resumes.

We have another difficulty in negotiating. Every time a group of people sit down with natives and say we want to negotiate they get taken so there is an inherent distrust that negotiations will only better only the other sides positon. yes it is a us and them situation because that is what history has shown will happen.
Giving and taking is truly according to ones perspective. natives have been given the shaft on reserves, indian act, prejudiced indian agents, residential schools, abusive priests and nuns, small pox infected blankets and many other situations where someone said taking your children 700 miles away will be good for you.

natives have been taken for their land, customs, in many causes their language, religion and social values etc etc etc so federal payments and rights are not negotiable.
If you doubt this check into Temagami band claims in Ontario where the Federal government funded the band with 10 million dollars a year to fight the Province of Ontario for ancestral hunting and fishing grounds.
Like Walking Buffalo said many pages ago "we dont want to open some cans of worms"

Good post. Kind of puts things in perspective.

[Mulehahn]

Granted I have not read every single post on this thread I think that it could be compressed to a few, with most issues being resolved. The biggest step is prosecution. I fully support subsistence hunting, but there are abuses, just as there are abuses by non-natives. The only difference is that non-natives are charged and punished. I often think the punishment is too light but it is handed down. However, when Natives clearly waste game meat (I have personally seen 5 deer rotting in a garage and reported), or animals wounded but not recovered, or huge amounts of fish caught then dumped on the shore, and full video or pics is submitted, with license plates, IDs and more the answer is not enough evidence or charges never come. Any other group would be charged on less.

Another example is the R v. Morris case mentioned in this thread. The SCC ruling on granted Pit Lamping to one specific Band near Saanich, based on 1 specific treaty and proof. Another band has since won similar rights but it is not Canada wide. If subsistence hunting is to be viable it must be held accountable.

The other issue is, if this a hunt is truly about food then cut the antlers off about six inches above the base, then again at the G2. Something similar for moose.

Most of the issues people have would be resolved with these 2 steps

[crownb]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

Did mods seriously ban Kurt? After Smokinjoe uses the term "crap", calls him a liar and threatens him with having to get tags from First Nations?
Can someone provide some reasoning? This has a bad smell to it, maybe something was said and removed that we can no longer see here?
If not, somethings amis?
Smokinjoe just drew a line in the sand that is unacceptable, he needs to go away.

Yeah I agree Kurt was extremly respectful about the whole thing, at one point he even thanked smokinjoe for engaging with him as he was gaining some insight from the other side. Did he say something that was deleted, it would surprise me if he did because he was very respectful, if he was suspended because he kept posting well smokinjoe did the same.

[Talking moose]

Smoking joe had said the mods were in contact with him to rein it in, I would venture a guess that perhaps the mods had been in contact with Kurt as well via pm.... Who knows what happens behind the scenes. Can't think of any of his posts being the culprit of his suspension.... Who knows though...

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Mulehahn

Granted I have not read every single post on this thread I think that it could be compressed to a few, with most issues being resolved. The biggest step is prosecution. I fully support subsistence hunting, but there are abuses, just as there are abuses by non-natives. The only difference is that non-natives are charged and punished. I often think the punishment is too light but it is handed down. However, when Natives clearly waste game meat (I have personally seen 5 deer rotting in a garage and reported), or animals wounded but not recovered, or huge amounts of fish caught then dumped on the shore, and full video or pics is submitted, with license plates, IDs and more the answer is not enough evidence or charges never come. Any other group would be charged on less.

Another example is the R v. Morris case mentioned in this thread. The SCC ruling on granted Pit Lamping to one specific Band near Saanich, based on 1 specific treaty proof. Another band has since won similar rights but it is not Canada wide. If subsistence hunting is to be viable it must be held accountable.

The other issue is, if this a hunt is truly about food then cut the antlers off about six inches above the base, then again at the G2. Something similar for moose.

Most of the issues people have would be resolved with these 2 steps

I am lost as to the desire to have Treaty hunters cut up the antlers.

I'll suggest that this repeated suggestion is based on a modern appetite for trophy bones, a flavour that is not as desired in the native community as it is within the non-treaty hunting community. Heck, go back 50 years and almost every hunter would be shaking their heads as to the current worrying about antlers. ...

Maybe if we all stopped focusing our attention on antler size then wildlife would be much easier to manage for all.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

The only thing you have made a case for is....... Hang on I'm looking for it...... Yup Not a darn thing. You have said the same crap over and over again and there's nothing anywhere to back any of it up, other than a few made up stories. The same 5 people keep backing up your terrible thought process, and it's gotten old,

The mods asked for guys to move on and let others in to take over... Clearly that was a farce,

Next deal is mark my word within the next 10 years you will have to get your tags from an indian controlled outfit. Personally saw the framework for it. This morning... If that thought makes you mad, wait till it kicks in. Look at bc... Trust me it's coming.

I have been quite aware of the concept of licences being issued by the regional Nations. I mentioned this quite early on in this thread.

Please refrain from unjust scare tactics. We both know that this concept is currently inapplicable within the Treaty 6, 7, 8 framework. Yes there is talk and some desire to go down this path. But implementing such changes will effect everybody, including every Indian and Inuit, Metis and will not be an easy goal to achieve.

Under this concept, Nations would control and issue ALL hunting licences within their traditional territory.First off the Nations would have to determine who controls what. This will not be an easy arrangement to make. Second, ALL Treaty hunters would also require a licence and tag to hunt within the different areas. This will also be very difficult to arrange a concencus on within the individual nations. In essence this concept would eliminate the individual hunting rights of aboriginal peoples and put control with their governments.

Hmmmmmm.... are Indians really going to want to give up their individual rights to their chief and coucil for distribution?

[Diesel.1974]

Much of the argument is in relation to FN "right" to hunt vs non FN's "privilege" to hunt. So my question is, If an FN is convicted of an offences under the wild act can their sentence include a hunting suspension? Or will a provincial suspension be in contradiction of the federal treaty? But if a suspension is possible in these circumstances what makes an FN's "right" so different than a "privilege" if they can be both removed by a court order.

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

Thanks

[M shooter]

When one group of people has an advantage for sego thing over another group of people there is always jealousy. It goes both ways, wether it's non-natives jealous of being able to hunt without tags, or natives jealous about how non-natives have managed to run businesses and profit from natural resources.

In my views th only way to stop some of this is to stop subsidizing it. its just perpetuating the us vs them attitude.

[dgl1948]

Maybe Alberta should adopt one of the ideas that has been brought up in Manitoba. As the province od Alberta struggles to find way to deal with a 7 billion dollar shortfall in tax revenue they are going to have to cut programs. Do they realy need a department to look after fish and wildlife? Lets do away with it and use their budget elswhere.
As the Metis claim their rights to hunt and fish they also claim that they harvest in means that will protect and insure the resource for future generations. Their population only had an increase of 45% in the last cencus.The Natives of the province are also making similar statements. If these two groups of people can hunt and fish in a sustainable means why cannot others follow suit. Lets do away with licensing systems, enforcement, and seasons. We should be follow the example of the Metis and Natives. If they are harvesting in a sustainable means all other can as well. There would not be any need for infrigement on treaty rights as some people want to see.That should work well for all parties eh!!