Thoughts on copper bullets?

[Andrzej]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/2969364...an+17+2013.pdf

Got this sent to me a couple days ago. Don't know what to make of it? Sorry if it is allready been posted.

Thanks for posting link I was not aware about this publication but this what this forum is all about ...may help many members here to open their mind to Canadian approach.

[sns2]

I know some may think Andrzej is going too far, but it's hard to argue his general line of thinking. Our food is laced with crap that we have no idea what it is. If they work out of your gun, they ain't a bad idea.

[FallAirFever]

Originally Posted by chuck

I wonder if a "beverage" is better for you than eating the south end of an Elk shot on the north end with a leaded bullet?

Not too sure which is better for me. But both sound good to me. A couple beers, a med-rare grilled chunk of south end elk, and a good buddy sounds like a great evening to me!!

Not too sure what ur getting at chuck?

[Andrzej]

Originally Posted by M70

Practicing with the TSX is a little too expensive for me. I normally practice with the tried and true Gamekings but come hunting season, I only have to make a few scope adjustments to be able to use the TSX. I find their in-flight and terminal performance to be pretty impressive. Being lead free is a bonus.

This is what I do as well I like Hornady SST as they are ballistically (BC) very close to TTSX.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by TomCanuck

http://www.nrahuntersrights.org/LeadIssues.aspx

I don't think lead poses a SIGNIFICANT risk to human health when used in hunting bullets.

Thinking is a matter of opinion, knowing is a matter of fact. Lead is an element with weak bonds, you couple that with a high concentration of applied energy you end up with a bullet that loses mass. The only way I would feel safe with lead bullets is if I could recover 100% of its mass. If you can't recover it all, then where does the rest reside and how far does it travel from the main wound channel? I don't know, therefore i eliminate lead from the equation. Whether lead in hunting bullets poses a risk to human health is a good question, but it does pose a risk, the alternative does not.

[a little redneck]

I shot my elk with a barnes ttsx blue polymer tip bullet. It was a one shot kill with the bullet going through the elk from 487 yds. I have full confidence in this ammo, it is accurate out of a 30.06 and efficient. Will definitely be hunting large game with it again. I'm not so sure this would be good ammo for a deer.

[32-40win]

Considering the number of bullets I have cast and handled and shot over 25 yrs,
I kind of tend to think that, maybe, these types of studies, may possibly have some backing, from someone who has an agenda against guns period, trying to work thru the back door. It has been proposed to the US gov't and rejected every time , so far, to have lead bullets banned, period. So, I tend to take these types of studies with a grain of salt. Studies can be skewed in any direction desired, lead is toxic, no doubt about it, but, we breath and eat worse things in life, without ever knowing it, according to "studies".
I have no issues with trying/using monometals, if they work , great. I think they have a ways to go yet, to replace lead core bullets.
Be careful what you wish for.

[TomCanuck]

Originally Posted by Traps

Thinking is a matter of opinion, knowing is a matter of fact. Lead is an element with weak bonds, you couple that with a high concentration of applied energy you end up with a bullet that loses mass. The only way I would feel safe with lead bullets is if I could recover 100% of its mass. If you can't recover it all, then where does the rest reside and how far does it travel from the main wound channel? I don't know, therefore i eliminate lead from the equation. Whether lead in hunting bullets poses a risk to human health is a good question, but it does pose a risk, the alternative does not.

I feel safe knowing not a single case of lead poisoning has been linked to eating game meat. This tells me that lead bullets don't pose any significant risk to human health.

[silver]

I think the rumour about lead poisoning in game meat from lead bullets was started by the guys selling monometal bullets.

[TomCanuck]

Originally Posted by 32-40win

Considering the number of bullets I have cast and handled and shot over 25 yrs,
I kind of tend to think that, maybe, these types of studies, may possibly have some backing, from someone who has an agenda against guns period, trying to work thru the back door. It has been proposed to the US gov't and rejected every time , so far, to have lead bullets banned, period. So, I tend to take these types of studies with a grain of salt. Studies can be skewed in any direction desired, lead is toxic, no doubt about it, but, we breath and eat worse things in life, without ever knowing it, according to "studies".
I have no issues with trying/using monometals, if they work , great. I think they have a ways to go yet, to replace lead core bullets.
Be careful what you wish for.

I agree, the first time this, "issue" was raised was in 2008 by a dermatologist who is also an environmentalist. Reminds me of a certain washed up geneticist who claims the sky is falling on the CBC for a living.

One article on the subject claimed their was a KARMIC aspect to hunters being poisoned by their own bullets LOL. Given no case of lead poisoning has been attributed to lead bullets, I guess karma ain't that much of a b-word.

While I see no problem with using copper bullets, I don't see it as an existential issue.

[Jordan Smith]

We've been over all this before, and we've hashed and re-hashed it. There are extremist supporters of the anti-lead theology, and there are those that question its validity.

I love Barnes bullets, and use TTSX bullets for nearly all my hunting. Having said that, let's not get fanatical and build straw men when there's no scientifically conclusive evidence that supports the idea that there's a problem with eating game shot with lead-cored bullets.

Here's a scientific study in which no results were found that support the hypothesis that lead-shot game is materially harmful to one's health. Click on the Full Text image to see the full article:

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225671870_Intake_of_lead_from_game_meat_-_a_risk_to_consumers'_health

And another from John Barsness:

"Here's a quote from the EUROPEAN FOOD REASEARCH AND TECHNOLOGY journal (Volume 15, No. 5, pp. 375-379), concerning eating game meat. The study tested both the level of lead in game shot with lead projectiles, and the blood lead-level of hunters:

"The blood lead concentrations [in the game meat] ranged from 21-171 ng/mL with a geometric mean of 57 ng/mL (n=25). However, the individual blood lead concentrations of the hunters did not correlate with the number of their weekly game meat meals (r=0.046). The blood lead levels were compared with a control group (n=21), which consisted of voluntary blood donors from the same region. Analysis of variance, adjusted for age, did not reveal a significant difference between the two populations (p=0.89). Thus, it was concluded that frequent consumption of wild game meat has no significant effect on blood lead levels."

There's more evidence of the same sort from other European studies, where consumption of game meat is often studied because game is sold in stores and restaurants.

Just because game meat MIGHT have higher levels of lead (butchering techniques have a lot to do with it) doesn't necessarily mean frequent consumption of game meat elevates blood levels in humans.

In fact a lot of recent research about all sorts of food indicates that just because the food itself has high levels of something, doesn't necessarily mean that "something" gets into our bodies. For instance, the long-time advice about preventing gout was to avoid foods with high levels of purines.

But recent research that tested blood levels of purines after eating various foods shows that some (not all) foods with high levels of purines don't elevate purines in the blood, so don't cause gout.

Research on lead in the blood indicates that some level is unavoidable, since lead is so common on earth. Thus the noble goal of zero lead levels in children and pregnant women is unattainable.

The major causes of elevated lead are (1) old paint and (2) lead in manufacturing, which mostly affects factory workers. There is zero evidence that eating game killed with lead-cored bullets or lead shot significantly increases lead levels in the blood."

And another from JB:

"My wife and I eat wild game all the time. With the exception of eating out maybe 2-3 times a month, we eat game every day, including gamebirds rather than chicken. We have been doing this since we were married, 27 years ago--and I was doing it for at least a decade before that.

Last year Eileen was having what turned out to be a mionor problem with numbness on the soles of her feet, and as a result had some blood tests that included lead content, whch turned out to be lower than the average American's. None of the blood tests I've had done in the past 5 years (including one last year for life insurance purposes) have shown the slightest elevation in lead levels either.

Of course, we do shoot some of our animals with lead-free bullets and non-toxic shot, but the majority are still killed with lead-core bullets and lead shot."

I think Chuck's point is this- guys seems to be jumping on board the fanatic train and losing their heads about all this lead-in-meat stuff, but they don't stop to think about the issues in life which are much more conclusively hazardous to one's health like alcohol, tobacco, lack of exercise, etc.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by TomCanuck

I feel safe knowing not a single case of lead poisoning has been linked to eating game meat. This tells me that lead bullets don't pose any significant risk to human health.

That is a large statement.....do you have proof? - rhetorical question. If your good with it I am good with you being good with it.

Jordan, the half life of lead in blood is weeks, it also gets stored in your organs and bones where it's half life is months and years respectively, it just so happens that blood is easier to test and do so quickly.

Fellas I don't know whether it poses a significant risk, but it is edible meat that your losing lead into...........given a choice it's a real easy one for me to make.

YMMV

[Leeper]

I'm 64 years old and have been fed game shot with lead since I grew teeth. I have no reason to think I've been adversely affected although I have, in the past, had a rather cavalier attitude in my handling of lead. At this point, I think it's unlikely I will ingest enough lead to suffer greatly.
For those who have such concerns, I guess those copper bullets are the answer.
I think Chuck was pointing out that we each choose our poison. If one guy can caution others about the use of lead cored bullets, there is no problem with another cautioning about the effects of alcohol consumption. Both are poisons which are ingested by choice (though lead is not usually ingested on purpose) and which are usually not harmful if reasonable restraint and/or caution is exercised. Leeper

[covey ridge]

I am 64+ years and have been eating game all my life and I have done a ton of loading using lead shot. As a kid I used to keep lead pellets in my mouth to keep them handy for my .177 single shot I once spent a week at a battery factory cleaning lead and dust off lighting fixtures. No mask! No gloves! I have lead or mercury fillings in some of my teeth. Come to think of it, in the last 15 years I have been suffering from many ailments that my doctor has not been able to determine cause. One thing I have read is that once in body flesh, lead never leaves. I have never heard that lead is harmless and most sources agree that lead is not good. If lead has damaged me, it has allready been done. If this topic would have been discussed 50+ years ago and there were alternatives I may have went the alternative route. I would encourage those just comming into the sport to give it some serious thought and study.