Contesting a Photo Radar Ticket

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

When you are talking about the standard radar used by the police,you are correct.However photo radar is set up differently,and the topic of this thread is photo radar.Obviously you didn't read the link that I posted before replying.

http://www.cyberbeach.net/~mtrenout/errors.html

This is from that link.You might read the example before making another incorrect reply.

Radar is radar, and the formula you have posted is for a moving vehicle with a radar unit. Either way, with a stationary unit, cosine is always in favor of the violator. Don't worry I read the whole thing, and I can tell you this won't stand up in court if a technician is brought in to explain the sites errors.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by thundergrey

Nither do you i guess then. Single lanes are fair game
right from: http://www.qp.gov.ab.ca/documents/Re...sbn=0779738624

Ok smart guy define Urban? As in a municipality of some sorts. The story and the picture this was posted about had a truck across double solids on a rural highway. But thanks for trying The have a cookie at the door for you as you leave...............

Rules for traffic lanes

15(1) When operating a vehicle on a highway,

(a) in the case where double solid lines exist between traffic lanes, a person shall not drive the vehicle so that the vehicle or any portion of the vehicle crosses the double solid lines from one traffic lane to another;

(b) in the case of a highway in an urban area where a single solid line only exists between traffic lanes, a person shall not drive the vehicle so that the vehicle or any portion of the vehicle crosses the single solid line from one traffic lane to another except when overtaking and passing another vehicle;

(c) in the case of a highway outside an urban area where a single solid line only exists between traffic lanes, a person shall not drive the vehicle so that the vehicle or any portion of the vehicle crosses the single solid line from one traffic lane to another;

(d) in the case where a single solid line and a broken line exist together between traffic lanes, a person

(i) shall not, except as permitted under subclause (ii), drive the vehicle so that the vehicle or any portion of the vehicle crosses the solid line from the traffic lane next to which the solid line is located, and

(ii) may only drive the vehicle so as to cross to the left over the broken and solid lines from the traffic lane next to which the broken line is located for the purpose of and when overtaking and passing another vehicle in that traffic lane and shall, as soon as that other vehicle is safely passed, recross both lines and return to the traffic lane on the right in which that person’s vehicle was originally travelling;

(e) in the case where

(i) the roadway consists of only 2 traffic lanes that carry traffic in opposite directions, and

(ii) only one or more broken lines exist between the 2 traffic lanes,

a person may only drive the vehicle so as to cross to the left over the broken line from that person’s traffic lane into the traffic lane carrying the oncoming traffic for the purpose of overtaking and passing another vehicle that is travelling in the right traffic lane and shall as soon as that other vehicle is safely passed return to the traffic lane in which that person’s vehicle was originally travelling;

Use of the Highways Rules of the Road Regulations of Alberta

[elkhunter11]

Radar is radar, and the formula you have posted is for a moving vehicle with a radar unit. Either way, with a stationary unit, cosine is always in favor of the violator.

Apparently you can't seem to comprehend:

For a stationary photo radar van one of the most important of these errors is the cosine error. The Gastonomer units used in Ontario, had its beam offset at a 22 degree angle. The unit would correct the returned signal to take into account the frequency shift caused by the 22 deg angle. If the vehicle is not parked exactly parallel to the target vehicles it will affect the accuracy of the unit since the unit blindly assumes that the angle is always 22 degrees. Lets look at how a simple 10 degree shift in alignment can affect the reading, either way.

We will assume that the vehicle in question is traveling at 100km/h, the cosine of 22 ° is .9272 and the photo radar unit will add 7.28 km/h to get the correct reading for speed.
1) 100 X .9272 = 92.72km/h + 7.28km/h = Readout is 100km/h
If the van is parked with the front of the vehicle parked 10 ° away from the direction of the road, the angle would increase to 32 °. The cosine of 32 ° is .8480
2) 100 X .8480 = 84.80km/h + 7.28km/h = Readout is 92.72km/h
You get a break and your speed is lowered by 7.92km/h
Now the opposite will happen if the front of the vehicle is pointing towards the road at a 10 ° angle. The cosine of 12 ° is .9781.
3) 100 X .9781 = 97.81km/h + 7.28km/h = Readout is 105.09km/h
Your vehicle has 5.09km/h added to the actual speed and if they are operating at zero tolerance, you get a ticket.

What part of stationary photo radar van don't you understand?

I can tell you this won't stand up in court if a technician is brought in to explain the sites errors.

Try another source

http://www.sense.bc.ca/equipmnt.htm

Notice :

The unit is designed to be aligned at a 22.5° angle to the direction of travel.

And as a result.

However, the accuracy will vary depending upon site alignment conditions because of the 22.5° cosine correction factor applied.

Yet another source

http://www.photocop.com/speed.htm

Notice

Cosine Effect

Since it is impractical to place a photo-radar unit in same vector as the vehicle being measured, a correction must be made to account for any displacement. A normal deployment frequently set the radar at a 20° angle relative to the direction of travel. The technique for calculating the correction is called the cosine effect.

The cosine effect is used to determine the actual speed of a vehicle given the indicated speed and the angle of the beam. This relationship is expressed as: True Speed = Indicated Speed/Cosine q

There are three sources,and all verify the built in angle compensation that is present on photo radar units but not on the normal radar unit used by police.With the normal radar unit used by police,the cosine error always results in a lower than actual speed being displayed,because there is no built in angle compensation.However due to the built in angle compensation used in photo radar units,cosine error can also result in higher than actual speeds being displayed.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Apparently you can't seem to comprehend:




What part of stationary photo radar van don't you understand?



Try another source

http://www.sense.bc.ca/equipmnt.htm

Notice :



And as a result.



Yet another source

http://www.photocop.com/speed.htm

Notice



There are three sources,and all verify the built in angle compensation that is present on photo radar units but not on the normal radar unit used by police.With the normal radar unit used by police,the cosine error always results in a lower than actual speed being displayed,because there is no built in angle compensation.However due to the built in angle compensation used in photo radar units,cosine error can also result in higher than actual speeds being displayed.

Alright, you seem to have yourself stuck on the 20-22 issue. Yes the radar (same as all radar units in a Patrol Car) are designed to give true reading on an offset. That is because if the calculation is not entered a radar unit would have to be directly in front of you to give a true reading. Not practical as you would get run over. All modern units have this same true reading set-up. None of this has anything to do with the fact that cosine error in stationary mode radar always is in the favor of the violator. You might want to do some research on plain old radar first, before you begin tackling this.

I read everything you posted and nothing you linked proved anything I said wrong. Thanks for the info anyway.

[elkhunter11]

Yes the radar (same as all radar units in a Patrol Car) are designed to give true reading on an offset.

You are the one not getting it.

Regular radar guns as used by the police do not have a built in offset.However,since the police car is either driving or parked on the same road as the oncoming vehicles,the oncoming vehicles are at a very small angle,so the cosine error is so small that it isn't significant enough to matter.And without the built in 22 degree correction,the cosine error always favors the motorist being monitored.I have used the same radar guns that the police use to measure speeds of watercraft,and there is no built in 22 degree correction.The highest readings are always produced when the craft is going directly towards the gun,or directly away from the gun.

See the link below,and you will see no mention of any correction for cosine error built into the police radar.

http://www.1stradardetectors.com/sup..._History_.html

From that link.

So, police will almost always trigger the radar gun at 400 to 1000 feet to keep the Cosine angle as near zero as possible.

On the other hand,photo radar is often parked off of the road,or on a service road,where the angle is large enough to be a significant factor,hence the built in 22 degree correction.Because of that built in 22 degree correction factor,the cosine error does not always favor the motorist being monitored.

Yet one more link.

http://www.motorists.org/photoenforc...into-question/

From that link.

As you probably know, photo radar is deployed at an angle to the flow of traffic. When any radar device is deployed at such an angle, the measured speed is less than the actual target speed. This is known as "cosine error" and can be calculated:

Measured Speed = Target Speed (cos t)

where t is the radar beam's angle to the direction of travel.

Commerce City has contracted with American Traffic Systems who has deployed their Autopatrol™ PR-100. According to a PR-100 spec sheeet that I obtained from ATS's attorney, the PR-100 is to be deployed at a 22.5 degree angle to the flow of traffic.

This angle is specified because the system internally compensates for this angle when calculating the "actual" speed. So if this angle is not exact, the measured speed will be incorrect.

If they read the links that I posted,and the quotes from those links,I think that most people now understand the difference between police radar and photo radar,and the significance of the 22 degrees in photo radar,

And if you post that you still don't understand the difference between police radar and photo radar,and the significance of the 22 degrees in photo radar,there are only two possibilities.The first is that you simply have no grasp of physics or geometry,and the second is that you simply don't want to see a difference.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You are the one not getting it.

Regular radar guns as used by the police do not have a built in offset.However,since the police car is either driving or parked on the same road as the oncoming vehicles,the oncoming vehicles are at a very small angle,so the cosine error is so small that it isn't significant enough to matter.And without the built in 22 degree correction,the cosine error always favors the motorist being monitored.I have used the same radar guns that the police use to measure speeds of watercraft,and there is no built in 22 degree correction.The highest readings are always produced when the craft is going directly towards the gun,or directly away from the gun.

See the link below,and you will see no mention of any correction for cosine error built into the police radar.

http://www.1stradardetectors.com/sup..._History_.html

From that link.



On the other hand,photo radar is often parked off of the road,or on a service road,where the angle is large enough to be a significant factor,hence the built in 22 degree correction.Because of that built in 22 degree correction factor,the cosine error does not always favor the motorist being monitored.

Yet one more link.

http://www.motorists.org/photoenforc...into-question/

From that link.




If they read the links that I posted,and the quotes from those links,I think that most people now understand the difference between police radar and photo radar,and the significance of the 22 degrees in photo radar,

And if you post that you still don't understand the difference between police radar and photo radar,and the significance of the 22 degrees in photo radar,there are only two possibilities.The first is that you simply have no grasp of physics or geometry,and the second is that you simply don't want to see a difference.

And I do, quite well thank you. And what band of radar are the police using? And what band does photo radar use? Can you describe the difference between the two for us? Could you please tell me what the ruling is on an acceptable amount of cosine error in Alberta?
Ya, thanks............................................ .........................................
Oh and physics is the science of interaction between matter and energy. Geometry is the mathematics of place, lines, curvature, and surfaces. My grasp is very firm. You have still failed to explain how anything you have posted disproves the fact that cosine angle and "error" always give a lower speed reading when the radar is stationary. I believe that a few of the sites you posted even say that. But keep pumping links, it is interesting to see what some people believe.

[elkhunter11]

And what band of radar are the police using?

According to my radar detector,they are using either Ka or K when patrolling the highways.I haven't encountered X band in a while.

And what band does photo radar use?

My radar detector indicates Ka.

And since I haven't had a speeding ticket in over 20 years,I do trust my radar detector.

[rem338win]

And how fast does Ka band travel? Fast enough that your detector is too slow. Nice talking to you............................................... ..

[elkhunter11]

duplicate.

[elkhunter11]

And how fast does Ka band travel? Fast enough that your detector is too slow.

I could care less how fast Ka band travels,since my detectors have always alerted me in time to slow down and avoid tickets.
I don't depend on the detector alerting me when it is my vehicle being monitored.A radar detector is of the most use when it detects radar being used to monitor a vehicle in front of me.A high quality detector like the one that I currently use,is even able to detect POP radar in this way.That is the great thing about technology,as soon as a new improved radar is developed,a detector that detects it soon follows.

Fast enough that your detector is too slow.

I have been proving that theory wrong for over 20 years,by updating my radar detectors as the radar technology has improved.The nice part about today's radar detectors,is that you can easily update the software for a very small fee,rather than having to buy a new unit.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have been proving that theory wrong for over 20 years,by updating my radar detectors as the radar technology has improved.The nice part about today's radar detectors,is that you can easily update the software for a very small fee,rather than having to buy a new unit.

LOL....I can just imagine all the money you've saved on speeding tickets, keeping up with the newest high tech radar detectors.....

[elkhunter11]

LOL....I can just imagine all the money you've saved on speeding tickets, keeping up with the newest high tech radar detectors...

Actually I sold radar detectors,so they actually made money for me.They were hard to get in Alberta,but a relative was a dealer in Saskatchewan,so I sold dozens for him.

You quoted this yourself,but must have neglected to read the last part.

The nice part about today's radar detectors,is that you can easily update the software for a very small fee,rather than having to buy a new unit.

Since I bought my last unit in 2002,my total cost in software updates has been less than $100.

[Rackmastr]

I have a cheaper solution......though I'm sure you have some idea of what it might be. I hear it also saves lives of innocent people who decide to obey the posted speed limit.....

Personally, I'm just enjoyin watching rem338win beat you at every corner.....continue!

[geezer55]

Just to inject a little humour.

[DairyMan7]

I regards to the registered owner thing, that fellas right. Lets say you lent your vehicle out to a friend and he was driving like a maniac. Some person calls in and says this. Then the registered owner is issued a careless or dangerous driving ticket. no questions ask.. And you have to pay it.

A guy i know sold his truck (it was just a junker sold it for like 100 bucks) some kids stole it from a yard rolled it on the highway and then just left it there. The cops issued my buddy a ticket because the last registered owner was him, he got like 4 tickets totaling over 1000 bucks. Then he said no it wasn't me. He still fought it then didn't show up for court and now has a WARRANT out for his arrest!!!! go figure...thats how the law is i guess.
I don't believe they can issue speeding tickets through the mail though only if its photo radar.
That photo radar is a great thing i think, how many times are we saying we need more cops out there to patrol, well they are more eyes for those cops that are dealing with more inportant stuff like murders/impaireds...etc

Another thing is the photo radar machince takes a pic of a fraction of a sec....i think they got the right truck my friend just pay it.

The thing on the photo radar is people are ****ed because they get caught...just man up and pay I say.
If i get a ticket i just say a **** you caught me!!!

[ckipfer]

So I Just received a nice letter in the mail from Edmonton Police Service, inside is a lovely ticket for $220.00, According to the ticket enclosed It states I was traveling 77km per hour in a 60 construction zone where workers were present.

In the picture you can clearly see 2 things that would make me wonder if it is worth fighting the ticket or just paying it.

1.) You can clearly see another vehicle in the picture, though you can not see the whole vehicle it is clear there is another vehicle in the picture so how can I be sure that this did not affect the accuracy of the radar

2.) In the not so far distance in the picture, but right ahead of my car is a piece of equipment working on an overpass in the area Again how can I be sure that the radar was not reading him moving?

I would normally consider fighting a ticket but in this instance I do not believe I was speeding, as I very very rarely speed even on back roads. I know I can't afford the ticket therefore I just don't do it.

[peonu2]

hi someone in calgay help me please i got 2 photo tickets a week apart and they both have the same address on them. can someone tell me where 10800 16 ave nw. when i do a google serch it shows me down 16 ave. but the problem is i was driving down stoney trail no where near that address. 2 one week apart. one for 102 klms in a 80. the other 97 in a 80. they have a picture of my bus but not at the rite address. also anyone know of a photo lawyer. thanks

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by peonu2

hi someone in calgay help me please i got 2 photo tickets a week apart and they both have the same address on them. can someone tell me where 10800 16 ave nw. when i do a google serch it shows me down 16 ave. but the problem is i was driving down stoney trail no where near that address. 2 one week apart. one for 102 klms in a 80. the other 97 in a 80. they have a picture of my bus but not at the rite address. also anyone know of a photo lawyer. thanks

So you were speeding and you want to try and get off on a technicality?

LC

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by hunterbyheart

From an insurance stand point, photo radar does NOT count against you, so you won't be double dinged there.

I wondered about that. If you don't self declare your vehicle had a ticket...can they void your insurance if you needed it?

I thought the insurance agent asks...have you had any speeding tickets. Do you say yes...or no? Interesting. Any agents on AOF?

[bezner]

your getting bent over with no lube

[Tezma]

IF YOU SPEED, THEN MAYBE YOU NEED TO GET A RADAR DETECTOR.

They are good at picking out photo Radar, 9500 IX IMO is the BEST.
for 499.99 it has saved me several time.

[Digger1]

Originally Posted by james_m

Lies....I got 2 this past summer and one picture had 2 vehicles...one in each lane.

X2 Got one on Beddington in Calgary. The other car was actually closer to the camera. Can't afford to lose $45 per hour to fight it! Bah

[Tezma]

OH YEA, If you guys don't have a radar detector, Turn your Radio to 660 AM and every 10 mins on the 1s they tell you where they are sitting... Really help full!!!!

[Tezma]

Originally Posted by rem338win

And I do, quite well thank you. And what band of radar are the police using? And what band does photo radar use? Can you describe the difference between the two for us? Could you please tell me what the ruling is on an acceptable amount of cosine error in Alberta?
Ya, thanks............................................ .........................................
Oh and physics is the science of interaction between matter and energy. Geometry is the mathematics of place, lines, curvature, and surfaces. My grasp is very firm. You have still failed to explain how anything you have posted disproves the fact that cosine angle and "error" always give a lower speed reading when the radar is stationary. I believe that a few of the sites you posted even say that. But keep pumping links, it is interesting to see what some people believe.

I did some research for you and everyone on here, To stop the debate about radars and Lasers.

Here is the thread I made Just now,

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...59#post1113259

"One question that often comes up is in regard to droppler shift is “if the officer is not directly in front of me when he shoots me, is his reading accurate?”

If the officer shooting you with either a radar or laser gun is at an extreme angle, no, the speed that is displayed on his device is NOT ACCURATE, however this inaccuracy is in your favor, not the officers, let me explain.

If you approach the officer at an angle and maintain the same speed as you approach, your relative speed that was first measured will be the most accurate. However as you approach the officer and your angle increases thus the relative speed that will be measured by the gun will decrease.

Typically an officer’s angle should be less then 11 degrees from his target for him to get an accurate reading. But again, if he exceeds this angle the odds are in your favor, not the officers.

Another common question that we are asked is: How far police radar can travel and why is the sensitivity of a radar detector is so important?

Because police radar uses the microwave bands, which are high frequency, the distance traveled is line of sight. However; terrain, buildings, and objects such as signs, electrical lines will effect the range.

Also police radar is directional, meaning if the officer is aiming his radar antenna toward the front of his vehicle and if your approaching from the rear, you may not detect his radar gun until you are very close to his location."

[Kim473]

Would'nt it be cool if a couple of hundred people installed a switch in there cars to disable the ignition and stop infront of these photo radar units. They could not take there pictures and you could just say it just died, and prove that it would not start by turning the starter on. LOL. If you did it in working car they could give you a ticket for a parking violation, but if it would not start. I have parked infront of them before when they are parked legaly on certain roads and it is realy funny when they have to move. They get all peed off and try telling you to move but if your legaly parked they can not a thing. LOL.

[Ken07AOVette]

Or you could try not speeding

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Or you could try not speeding

Where is the fun in that. This thread was semi-epic though, dragged from the depths.

[NBFK]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

So you were speeding and you want to try and get off on a technicality?

LC

I had a four demerit ticket that the officer couldn't provide the pre and post calibration report for his radar gun when I asked if I could view it in court. He also didn't have any notes on where he was set up. There fore I smiled, he glared and I got off on a technicality.

[Dakota369]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Or you could try not speeding

Says the man with a corvette........... that this is governed at 110 kph right?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by natural.born.fawn.killer

I had a four demerit ticket that the officer couldn't provide the pre and post calibration report for his radar gun when I asked if I could view it in court. He also didn't have any notes on where he was set up. There fore I smiled, he glared and I got off on a technicality.

That's good! I have taken tickets to court too and won, not speeding tickets but some goofball signage ticket.

You were flying if your speeding ticket was 4 demerits....very lucky! I just find it funny how everyone wants to fight tickets when they are speeding....

LC