Spear and Atlatl !!!

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Didnt want to hijack another post so I will address this here...

we were discussing a great association here in Alberta that has extremely helped bowhunting for all of us...

an other member stated their opinion..which is great...

they stated "Any group that throws another hunting group under the bus as with the Spear and Atlatl hunters can pound sand."

Thats the posters opinion...which is fair...my opinion is ...just like rifle hunting, crossbow hunting, Muzzle Loader Hunting....yes we are all hunters, I use/used all the above but ...
sooooo not archery so WHY would they defend them...the Association is bowhunting... Spear and Atlatl are a whole other critter !!!


If a Bowhunting association fought for them....who's next... "the running buffalo off cliffs hunters"...

I agree that the Association should not have anything to do with Spear and Atlatl !!! let them form their own association and fight for their own rights...

JMHO
Neil

[dmcbride]

The full quote from the other thread.
While I would love to join a ABA and the ABA has done a lot of good for bow hunters. The ABA will never get anything from me. Any group that throws another hunting group under the bus as with the Spear and Atlatl hunters can pound sand.

I also agree that the association should not have anything to do with Spear and Atlatl hunting. Unfortunately they raised a stink and caused a bunch of issues. This has nothing to do with them defending anybody, they plain and simple threw Spear and Atlatl hunters under the bus.

I am sorry for somewhat high jacking the other thread, but if the ABA wants to throw other hunters under the bus people should know about it.



Here is a thread for anyone interested.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=204267

[Lefty-Canuck]

I heard a different version of events....and that was the ABA was asked to draft up a motion as F&W was looking to add this to the regs and the ABA was requested to bring it to the AGMAG table.

Before the conspiracy theorists start to spin webs....I heard this before I became a member of the ABA.

LC

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I heard a different version of events....and that was the ABA was asked to draft up a motion as F&W was looking to add this to the regs and the ABA was requested to bring it to the AGMAG table.

Before the conspiracy theorists start to spin webs....I heard this before I became a member of the ABA.

LC

I dunno, From Brent.

Hi dmcbride – tried calling your work today but you had left.

this issue popped up a couple of years ago when I had 2 members contact me about the use of spears/atlatls in Alberta, what they had seen on YouTube and one had a friend who had used a spear on a bear. I chked with the head of enforcement in Alberta Pat Dunford and he said there were no laws on the books not allowing them, etc. They had a few negative comments made to them but nothing really more than that. I brought the issue up at an ABA exec mtg June 18 2012 after I raised the question at the AGAMG (Alberta Game Management Advisory Group) mtg in May 2012. The below is from the minutes of our ABA exec mtg that June.

AGMAG mtg (May)
Hunting with spears
Discussion as to issue brought up at AGMAG. Possible public reaction if it became public. How we as hunting groups can defend the practice - very hard. SRD Enforcement will bring issue back to Dec AGMAG with proposal to prohibit hunting with spears. Was no opposition from groups at AGMAG.

ESRD came back to the May 29 2013 AGMAG meeting and explained how there are no rules concerning using atlatls/spears as well as some other weapons out there (high power air rifles, blow guns, even people wanting to run down and kill game with their bare hands). The stakeholder members and ESRD personel at the meeting discussed the issue, how hard if not impossible it would be to defend the use of these weapons based on all the other criteria we use to defend what we use now as hunters, how negative a public response (from hunters and non-hunters both) would likely be when something hit social media (based on past experiences/responses etc on similar issues – examples are coyote hunting with hounds (now illegal after a houndsman did a taped interview and hunt with CTV on the issue) and the Vancouver Canucks player David Booth who legally killed a black bear with his bow in Alberta over bait two years ago). Many were surprised that they could be used for hunting in Alberta. From that I/we drafted up a change proposal on behalf of the AGMAG stakeholders to have it officially put on the agenda, into the processes for discussion etc.

From May 29 2013 AGMAG Minutes:

• ABA – Make use of spears and atlatls illegal for hunting big game in AB.
o Full support from AGMAG to define legal big game hunting equipment.

The next AGMAG Meeting is January 14 2014 and we will know more then what the stakeholders of AGMAG think on the issue. AGMAG stakeholders:
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development, Alberta Tourism, Parks, and Recreation, Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society
Alberta Fish and Game Association, Wild Sheep Foundation of Alberta, Hunting For Tomorrow, Safari Club International
AB Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Alberta Bowhunters Association, Wild Elk Federation , Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Alberta Beef Producers, Alberta Professional Outfitters Society.

At the Hunting For Tomorrow stakeholders meeting December 17 2013 the issue was discussed and all members present were in favor of ESRD looking to define what weapons should be legal to hunt big game. I haven’t got copies of those meeting minutes yet. The stakeholders present at this meeting were Alberta Fish & Game Association, Hunting For Tomorrow, Alberta Bowhunters Association, Alberta Professional Outfitters Society, Alberta Hunter Education Instructors Association. Representatives from ESRD were also there to provide information on issues as questions from the stakeholders came up. Several reps were shocked/surprised to find out there were no rules governing this type of stuff.

At the ABA AGM March 29 2014 in Lethbridge we will bring this up for discussion and give everyone the background info etc and see what the members think. There will be a report in the next newsletter (should be out in a month or so) outlining this and a couple of other things we are working on (archery season draw proposal, Cooperative Game Mgt survey, the Mule Deer management Review process and our ABA questionnaire for feedback on the state of our mule deer).

I have personally seen the spear and atlatl videos on YouTube. Pretty distasteful and not what we need to be shown portraying how we are as hunters etc. I know of a fellow who used a spear on a bear – bit of a circus it ended up. My son in law has an atlatl (present from son David from ATBA Jamboree in Hinton) and I have used it. I have been to 2 ATBA Jamborees and seen lots of people using the atlatl – even watched the guy who makes/sells them demonstrating how they work etc. Are a fun thing but in this day and age not something I would promote/endorse as a hunting tool.
In this day and age we are under a microscope in what we do as hunters and things are around the world in a blink of an eye. We can effectively argue effective range, practice makes perfect, quick/humane kills, etc but some things are hard to defend. None of us stakeholders could apply our arguments to the use of these weapons. Every legal weapon out there has wounded something at one time but we can defend their use in that these incidents are few in nature (when using archery equipment the fatalities from a “wound” is very small) and not the norm.

Hope that brings you up to speed on this. Any other questions just let me know.

brent

[Lefty-Canuck]

"Discussion as to issue brought up at AGMAG. Possible public reaction if it became public. How we as hunting groups can defend the practice - very hard. SRD Enforcement will bring issue back to Dec AGMAG with proposal to prohibit hunting with spears. Was no opposition from groups at AGMAG"

SRD initiated the proposed "prohibition". ABA does not run AGMAG, they are a minority partner within the group.

Other stakeholders in AGMAG will have/have had their say...

No need to single out the ABA as they do not make nor do they have final word on this.

If you want to persecute them based on starting a discussion....I guess that's your prerogative.

You could always join the ABA and discuss things with the executive about your thoughts on the issue, you are making assumptions they "they raised a stink"...

LC

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

First didnt mean you were hijackin the thread dmcbride...it was I kinna with ABA...

Maybe one of us is reading this wrong..All Brent said was " not something I would promote/endorse as a hunting tool" "...and In this day and age we are under a microscope in what we do as hunters"


All hunters not just bowhunters!!!

and its under discussion not an ABA or group that throws another hunting group under the bus...

I have to agree...like I said there are those that would like to run Buffalo off cliffs also...jump off skidos on coyotes...kill chit with knifes...

There has to be a line drawn somewhere with a bowhunting group or association...


Neil

[RayM77]

The use of different weapons and methods of hunting should be addressed and discussed by hunters. We should not support everything blindly. As the saying goes police yourself or someone else will. If spear and atl hunting can be shown to be humane, ethical and effective by those that take part in it I would fully support it. But it is up to that user group to defend it. Would you be up in arms if the ABA opposed hunting out of helicopters or using dogs to hunt deer? Groups are in place to promote ethics and conservation and sometimes hunting methods will be challenged.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

I could not get a clear definitive answer from Brent when I emailed him. What I would like to know is if the ABA intentionally went out of their way to get the ball rolling to ban Spears. Which from what I undertsand they did?

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

The full quote from the other thread.
While I would love to join a ABA and the ABA has done a lot of good for bow hunters. The ABA will never get anything from me. Any group that throws another hunting group under the bus as with the Spear and Atlatl hunters can pound sand.

I also agree that the association should not have anything to do with Spear and Atlatl hunting. Unfortunately they raised a stink and caused a bunch of issues. This has nothing to do with them defending anybody, they plain and simple threw Spear and Atlatl hunters under the bus.

I am sorry for somewhat high jacking the other thread, but if the ABA wants to throw other hunters under the bus people should know about it.



Here is a thread for anyone interested.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=204267

Absolutely we need to stand united as hunters NOT by the legal method we wish to hunt with and than run the others down.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Absolutely we need to stand united as hunters NOT by the legal method we wish to hunt with and than run the others down.

I agree with that statement.... But funny how rifle guys have done just that, and are literally trying, and succeeding in reducing Bow hunting opportunity in this province!

Just like I have said about other groups, if some weapon wants to be heard they need to start their own association, and work their way up the ladder !

[wasteland.soldier]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I agree with that statement.... But funny how rifle guys have done just that, and are literally trying, and succeeding in reducing Bow hunting opportunity in this province!

Can you expand on this? I'm not aware.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I agree with that statement.... But funny how rifle guys have done just that, and are literally trying, and succeeding in reducing Bow hunting opportunity in this province!

Just like I have said about other groups, if some weapon wants to be heard they need to start their own association, and work their way up the ladder !

Ya I know what your saying, politics and BS runs thick everywhere.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I agree with that statement.... But funny how rifle guys have done just that, and are literally trying, and succeeding in reducing Bow hunting opportunity in this province!

Just like I have said about other groups, if some weapon wants to be heard they need to start their own association, and work their way up the ladder !

Agree, and it's funny how we can't go 2 years in a row without someone attacking Bowhunting for some perceived slight. I don't blame the ABA one bit for being "confrontational" considering their entire experience has been being constantly attacked by rifle hunters/the old boys Afga club.

I don't agree with Brent failing to bring the issue to the ABA membership. That was a serious mistake, and he will wear it on his reputation for likely as long as he hunts in Alberta. But it hardly represents the entire organization.

Why is no one critisizing the AFGA for failing to oppose the matter? Oh that's because they are mostly rifle hunters and didn't care until they realized they could use it against the ABA (hint-Payback for keeping bolt&string guns out of archery season, the inclusion of which was sheephumpers pet project. He has been in full-on attack mode since then, and is instigating most of this)

[wasteland.soldier]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me which rifle hunters are restricting opportunity for bowhunters, although two people have since chimed in saying they agree.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by 3blade

So why pick on Spear and Atlatl hunters? What did they do to the ABA?

I don't agree with Brent failing to bring the issue to the ABA membership. That was a serious mistake, and he will wear it on his reputation for likely as long as he hunts in Alberta. But it hardly represents the entire organization.

But it does represent the whole organization. If it didn't we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Why is no one critisizing the AFGA for failing to oppose the matter? Oh that's because they are mostly rifle hunters and didn't care until they realized they could use it against the ABA (hint-Payback for keeping bolt&string guns out of archery season, the inclusion of which was sheephumpers pet project. He has been in full-on attack mode since then, and is instigating most of this)

Quite frankly, I think they were a little caught of guard as with most of the hunting community. (No one expected a hunting group to go after another hunting group especially since the same arguments to ban spears and atlatls could be used against archers.) As for the backlash the ABA is getting, what did they expect?

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Agree, and it's funny how we can't go 2 years in a row without someone attacking Bowhunting for some perceived slight. I don't blame the ABA one bit for being "confrontational" considering their entire experience has been being constantly attacked by rifle hunters/the old boys Afga club.

I don't agree with Brent failing to bring the issue to the ABA membership. That was a serious mistake, and he will wear it on his reputation for likely as long as he hunts in Alberta. But it hardly represents the entire organization.

Why is no one critisizing the AFGA for failing to oppose the matter? Oh that's because they are mostly rifle hunters and didn't care until they realized they could use it against the ABA (hint-Payback for keeping bolt&string guns out of archery season, the inclusion of which was sheephumpers pet project. He has been in full-on attack mode since then, and is instigating most of this)

Wow, somebody's sure got an inferiority complex. News flash buddy, neither rifle hunters nor AFGA are out to get you so chill with your accusations.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I agree with that statement.... But funny how rifle guys have done just that, and are literally trying, and succeeding in reducing Bow hunting opportunity in this province!

Just like I have said about other groups, if some weapon wants to be heard they need to start their own association, and work their way up the ladder !

I'll be clear, I am not promoting one group or the other. But I fail to see what rifle guys has to do with this topic or politics.

Was it Brent's idea to just to throw spear and Atlatl guys under the bus because there are a few and they are starting to form there own association? Threat to the split draw because of a few spear and atlatl hunters after they define a weapon? (define a weapon for all seasons) Does he just have a hate on for spear and atlatl hunters? Was Brent the scape goat for the ABA?

What does the ABA have to gain by this? I don't know of any instances of spear or atlatl hunters attacking the ABA prior to there proposal.

Tell me a story of why I might not be able to spear hunt this season. Maybe sit down and think if it was bow hunting that was on the chopping block. Like I said the ABA has done lots for bow hunters but this simply wasn't one of them and that is why I won't join there organization.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Dmcbride....I will repeat the ABA did not act alone they are part of AGMAG, the other stake holders collectively have more say than the ABA if a proposal is off base to the majority of the user groups, they can band against a single group and shoot down an idea they do not want to move forward.

For the record, I know spears and atlatl's have a very small following and the influence is going to be minimal....BUT as other hunting methods have rules/regs/ and minimums so should these methods.

LC

[Lefty-Canuck]

^^^^^
Exactly,

People are doing the same thing they are criticizing the ABA for

You can always join...and be active and help make changes you see as being positive. Easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize a situation when no one was there or was involved....the proposal was in 2013, it was an AGMAG decision to whether it sinks or floats.

Like I said I heard that SRD already had this on the radar.

Haters gonna hate, but I wanted to know what goes on in the ABA so I joined to see.

LC