There really is no game in the mountains!

[NCC]

Originally Posted by raab

So what would your solution be?

There's only one solution; reduce the predator numbers. Bring back the grizzly bear hunt so that the efficient calf killers (the large mature boars that most hunters seek) are reduced in numbers and control the wolf numbers with trapping, poison or heli-hunting.

If you don't believe me, read some of Jim Rearden's work. He was a biologist from Alaska.

Anyone who thinks that the wolves, bears and ungulates will harmoniously exist together in great numbers has read too many Farley Mowat books. Wolves and bears don't just eat the old and sick, they eat the calves and bred cows. Without interference from humans, the numbers will balance out with very few ungulates and very few predators, and none of us will live long enough to see herds of elk in the mountains again.

If it's the fault of man that wolves are living in the old growth forests where they have not historically existed, shouldn't we also be responsible for removing those wolves before they kill all of the caribou?

If human interference and industry are truly to blame for the demise of the ungulates in Alberta, why are elk thriving in the Saddle Hills, moose thriving on the prairie farmland, and why are there more caribou on the Cold Lake Air Weapons range that in the Willmore and national parks?

I would also remove the licensing requirements to shoot wolves and the requirement to salvage the hide. many wolf hides have no value, and even the good ones are barely worth skinning and fleshing. It makes me think twice about shooting a wolf knowing that I have to pack it out of the bush.

[NCC]

By the good old days, are you referring to the days following the three mass poisoning campaigns (last one was in the 60's I think) that the Alberta government did?

Do a little research about the ungulate numbers when whitey first came out here. In Silence of the North (~1910), the author writes about following a moose track for days in Northern Alberta because it was the only one they has seen all winter, and boiling the muskrat hides to make soup as they hadn't seen a living thing in the bush for months. Buffalo and antelope were plentiful on the prairies, but that was about it. Lewis and Clarke found the same thing when they went west.

Currently, the only thing that controls the population of wolves is starvation. If you think that something else does, I'd like to hear it.

There is video evidence of one grizzly bear killing 50 calves in one calving season in BC. I don't think they happened to catch the most efficient calf killer in the history of bears, I think that is a typically activity. Even if 10% of the bears in BC are half as good as that one, that is 37 500 ungulate calves being killed per year. (15 000 x 10% x 25). It doesn't matter how much habitat restoration we do, the predator numbers will grow as the quickly as their food source will allow.

Cutlines and roads have allow wolves to travel faster and find stuff to kill. whitetails, elk, and wild horses in the foothills and mountains provide wolves with nutrition to keep them alive between caribou kills. Fire suppression has led to brush encroachment and less habitat. I get that. But that doesn't explain why the ungulate numbers have crashed in vast areas where there are no people, no poachers, no industry, no wild horses, no roads, and plenty of forage and moose and elk are thriving in every area of the province where there are no wolves and no grizzly bears.

As for the grizzly bear hunt affecting numbers, I saw one grizzly bear in my first 10 sheep hunting trips. The last sheep hunt I was on, I saw 7 in one bowl. That leads me to believe that the hunt has certainly affected the bear numbers.

[NCC]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Have predators not been around as long the deer, elk, moose, goats, and sheep? Everyone talks about the good old days where there used to be lots of game. They have been logging and clear cutting areas for over a hundred years and even with logging the grass still grows as it get sunlight and water. I have seen lots of elk in these areas feeding. As far as predators go if they have been around as long as the ungulates why is it just now that we seem to think we have a problem with them. Do you seriously think that the no grizzly bear hunt has a lot to do with it, now remember when the grizzly hunt was still on it was very limited tags per zone and not all those tags were filled in those zones every year. I’m sure the cat numbers haven’t exploded either as they still have a hunt for them, same with the wolves. Trappers are still trapping are they not? If there were more ungulates back in the good old days wouldn’t that mean more predators, oh and back in the good old days there were also a way fewer hunters out there then there are today. Do you not think human pressure has something to do with the problem, and back in the good old days it was easier to access areas as well. Cutting down the ease of access mean less people going into some of these areas which in turn makes it easier on the predators.

Please see above

[Moosetalker]

In the past I would take all my clients carcasses to a wolf infested spot and make a pile to sit over for a bit after guiding.

Another thing Id like to see is an incentive/bonus $$ to trappers for wolves being as the fur market is depressed would go a long way towards Trappers being supported.

Bears tho need the Grizz hunt re instated and Target the big black boars too.

[calvin]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Have predators not been around as long the deer, elk, moose, goats, and sheep? Everyone talks about the good old days where there used to be lots of game. They have been logging and clear cutting areas for over a hundred years and even with logging the grass still grows as it get sunlight and water. I have seen lots of elk in these areas feeding. As far as predators go if they have been around as long as the ungulates why is it just now that we seem to think we have a problem with them. Do you seriously think that the no grizzly bear hunt has a lot to do with it, now remember when the grizzly hunt was still on it was very limited tags per zone and not all those tags were filled in those zones every year. I’m sure the cat numbers haven’t exploded either as they still have a hunt for them, same with the wolves. Trappers are still trapping are they not? If there were more ungulates back in the good old days wouldn’t that mean more predators, oh and back in the good old days there were also a way fewer hunters out there then there are today. Do you not think human pressure has something to do with the problem, and back in the good old days it was easier to access areas as well. Cutting down the ease of access mean less people going into some of these areas which in turn makes it easier on the predators.

I’ve been thinking similarly to this. I have no doubt that there are many predator issues but if there are predators, there is game there. Those wolves etc are eating something. I truly believe that the recreational vehicles kill more ungulate offspring than anything. In these eastern slopes Rockies, there needs to be a season on access. May and June should be off limits to all ohvs, helicopters, rvs, mining/drilling etc. In the NPs I see way more game including predators and it appears to me that the only difference there is no recreational vehicles in large terrritories.

[NCC]

Originally Posted by Moosetalker

In the past I would take all my clients carcasses to a wolf infested spot and make a pile to sit over for a bit after guiding.

Another thing Id like to see is an incentive/bonus $$ to trappers for wolves being as the fur market is depressed would go a long way towards Trappers being supported.

Bears tho need the Grizz hunt re instated and Target the big black boars too.

In our little hunting area, we kill a couple of mature boar black bears every spring, and trap/snare/shoot every wolf we can, and the elk population seems to be increasing.

If there was value in a wolf hide, that would certainly encourage more people to target them.

[Keeleclimber]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Hebblewhite's telemetry study in Yaha and adjacent areas would dispel the notion as myth.

Predators did influence small bands to relocate relatively short distances to new range, but still well within the mountains.


The same is true from the top of Alberta's rockies down south to the Bow River. And now predators are significantly reducing deer, elk and moose numbers south of the Bow.

Quite simply, predators have wiped out mountain elk to a degree of more than 90%. Some herds including the previously famous Yaha/Banff migratory herd are now extirpated.

I've been saying this for years now...
It is an absolute dereliction of duty by Alberta biologists to allow these native animals to be wiped out for the sake of a few temporary politicians maintaining peace with the anti-predator management voters.


Habitat enhancement would be great if and only if predator reductions are also enacted.

You nailed it buddy!
The lack of game is very sad. But the predator hunting is world class!
Forest managers need to let naturally occurring wildfires in the mtns burn!!! Stop wasting tax money putting these fires out, unless of course human life, industry infrastructure are in danger.

Also, there are lots of efforts addressing these concerns we share by the Alberta Wild Sheep Foundation, I encourage everyone to join this group, great way to get informed and help out.

[NCC]

Originally Posted by calvin

I’ve been thinking similarly to this. I have no doubt that there are many predator issues but if there are predators, there is game there. Those wolves etc are eating something. I truly believe that the recreational vehicles kill more ungulate offspring than anything. In these eastern slopes Rockies, there needs to be a season on access. May and June should be off limits to all ohvs, helicopters, rvs, mining/drilling etc. In the NPs I see way more game including predators and it appears to me that the only difference there is no recreational vehicles in large terrritories.

Please explain how RV's have killed all of the game in the Willmore, Blackstone, Siffluer, White Goat, Wapiabi, Ya Ha Tinda, Sheep River, or even the areas where quads are allowed.

[calvin]

Originally Posted by NCC

Please explain how RV's have killed all of the game in the Willmore, Blackstone, Siffluer, White Goat, Wapiabi, Ya Ha Tinda, Sheep River, or even the areas where quads are allowed.

thats a very good point i didn't thoroughly consider other than my experience in 402 in which there has been a steady decline in elk populations during the last 30-40 years. that happens to coincide with large amounts of logging, introduction of trikes, then quads, now side by sides using the trails. not to mention the hordes of rv's setting up camps all along the Oldman system during the summer. a massive migration towards the end of november had hundreds of elk moving through that area to get out onto the A7 grazing. that in my experience is largely no more. i think the ungulates are still there, just not the numbers we used to see them as they may have become more widely dispersed according to the pressures of man and predators. another factor is the mining operations on the BC side of the divide might have a large factor in this area. just my thoughts.

[Dean2]

Yellowstone before wolves and after wolves. No more needs to be said. In the rest of the Province, add unlimited heavy hunting by the Stewards of the Land and it is pretty easy to see why game is disappearing.

[Big Grey Wolf]

You can have large numbers of apex predators (Wolves, bears and cougar). Or you can have large numbers of elk,moose, deer and caribou in our mountains and foothills. However you can not have both, pick your choice.

[slough shark]

It’s really very simple wolves decimate elk/moose/caribou tans to a lesser extent deer, cats do a number on deer, bears hit everything as fawns/calves. If it came down to feed/carrying capacity of the habitat we would see huge increases in ungulate populations, with all the logging/fires we have an abundance. It’s almost to the point that I’d almost suggest if someone wants to hunt moose or elk in the mountains they should almost be required to shoot a Wolf first, or perhaps set a a system where harvesting a wolf gives you a priority point in the draw.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

You can have large numbers of apex predators (Wolves, bears and cougar). Or you can have large numbers of elk,moose, deer and caribou in our mountains and foothills. However you can not have both, pick your choice.

Once the carnivores start to starve from the lack of game and die off the game may rebound. Like you say you cant have both,at some point we may have very few of either.

Managing the large predators is not something our government has the stomach or the budget for,unless its to save the Woodland Caribou which are probably going to fade away, with or without help.

Alberta was once world famous for its mountain hunting,its still there in a few pockets, if you have the ways and means to reach it. For the most part its gone, and the hills and valleys are empty of HUNTABLE numbers of Mule deer,Moose and Elk.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

You can have large numbers of apex predators (Wolves, bears and cougar). Or you can have large numbers of elk,moose, deer and caribou in our mountains and foothills. However you can not have both, pick your choice.

Exactly

Every city slicker thinks that they should see wolves and grizzlys as soon as the pavement ends.

[raab]

Originally Posted by buckman

Once the carnivores start to starve from the lack of game and die off the game may rebound. Like you say you cant have both,at some point we may have very few of either.

Managing the large predators is not something our government has the stomach or the budget for,unless its to save the Woodland Caribou which are probably going to fade away, with or without help.

Alberta was once world famous for its mountain hunting,its still there in a few pockets, if you have the ways and means to reach it. For the most part its gone, and the hills and valleys are empty of HUNTABLE numbers of Mule deer,Moose and Elk.

I saw the Wild Sheep foundation met yesterday with Nixon's Chief of Staff Tim Schultz. Said they talked about basically what were talking about in this thread. Prescribed burns, and predator management. They specified Grizzly's in the facebook post. Lets hope we see a return to world class mountain hunting. I can see why O'Connor loved it, and hope that one day in my lifetime I can see Elk and Sheep in good numbers throughout the Big Horn area.

[Dubious]

The funny thing about wolf hunting is when you ask for tips people always say go burn some boot leather and then complain about no one shooting them and how low the deer populations are. Or people posting online how much success they have had in 4xx zone for elk and then are upset when half of Calgary shows up. 🤷🏼 Can’t make this stuff up it’s a tuff community.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Dubious

The funny thing about wolf hunting is when you ask for tips people always say go burn some boot leather and then complain about no one shooting them and how low the deer populations are. Or people posting online how much success they have had in 4xx zone for elk and then are upset when half of Calgary shows up. 🤷🏼 Can’t make this stuff up it’s a tuff community.

I have never once seen people on this forum fail to give wolf and bear hunters all the help they possibly can. There have even been lots of offers to take guys out and show them how and where to take them. Just check out the most recent two threads on bears. There is a big difference between asking for help on bear or wolf and asking what cutline a guy should stand on to shoot an elk. Try not to confuse the responses.

[Backwoods Runner]

Not sure where all ya guys hunt but there’s tons of game west of sundre and Rocky. No elk or abundance of deer but loads of horses. Wolves will eventually develop a taste for them.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Backwoods Runner

Not sure where all ya guys hunt but there’s tons of game west of sundre and Rocky. No elk or abundance of deer but loads of horses. Wolves will eventually develop a taste for them.

I concur, the wolves, bears and cats will take the easy game first and leave the horses for last. Horses can run full tilt for miles, will fight back, stomping, kicking and biting. Horses are a much higher risk takedown for predators. I think that's why they have thrived at the same time moose, elk and deer have been hit hard by the predators.

[Dubious]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I have never once seen people on this forum fail to give wolf and bear hunters all the help they possibly can. There have even been lots of offers to take guys out and show them how and where to take them. Just check out the most recent two threads on bears. There is a big difference between asking for help on bear or wolf and asking what cutline a guy should stand on to shoot an elk. Try not to confuse the responses.

I would love any tips for calling wolves. Like what habitat is the most productive slashes creek bottoms funnels pines scrub? What calls are most effective I have a fox pro is this a good tool? How often to call? Any other tips? Ground blinds? What time of year is most productive winter? Fall? Been trying to break into wolves and coyotes for a year now and have had limited success.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Dubious

I would love any tips for calling wolves. Like what habitat is the most productive slashes creek bottoms funnels pines scrub? What calls are most effective I have a fox pro is this a good tool? How often to call? Any other tips? Ground blinds? What time of year is most productive winter? Fall? Been trying to break into wolves and coyotes for a year now and have had limited success.

So first step, at least take the time to read the dozens of threads that already exist on here about wolves and calling them. There is even one on the second of the 11 pages that is specific to using a Fox- Pro. Then if you still have specific questions guys will be happy to answer.


http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...t=Wolf+calling



http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/searc...rchid=17946412

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Dubious

I would love any tips for calling wolves. Like what habitat is the most productive slashes creek bottoms funnels pines scrub? What calls are most effective I have a fox pro is this a good tool? How often to call? Any other tips? Ground blinds? What time of year is most productive winter? Fall? Been trying to break into wolves and coyotes for a year now and have had limited success.

Biggest problem with wolves is for the most part they are a ton of work and low success. The reason you find limited help regarding wolf hunting is not that hunters are not willing to share but instead very few are good at wolf hunting

I am not a wolf hunter so I can’t give a lot of advice on them. What I do know from spending a lot of time in the bush is they are always on the move and can be found in all habitats because they follow the game. I have no problem telling people where I hear or see wolves and areas with fresh sign but that doesn’t mean they will be around by the time I tell someone

That is why you are commonly told go burn boot leather or cover ground

I can tell you there is a healthy wolf population in 337 and 339.

[Big Grey Wolf]

I still remember the "Good old Days" for moose when their was an American hunter camped on almost every cutline in North Western Alberta. We had so many moose and no wolves, we only charged then $20 for a license and said have at it. Wolf poision in 50's did work but not nice way to reduce their numbers.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Dubious

The funny thing about wolf hunting is when you ask for tips people always say go burn some boot leather and then complain about no one shooting them and how low the deer populations are. Or people posting online how much success they have had in 4xx zone for elk and then are upset when half of Calgary shows up. 🤷🏼 Can’t make this stuff up it’s a tuff community.

Re Wolf hunting.

This has worked for me while hunting Elk. Find a vantage point overlooking a large area (river valleys) works well.

Get the wind right and use your cow elk call. Any wolf in hearing range should come and take a look.

Problem with wolves is that they are transient and follow the game,especially elk. I have found if the elk are around the wolves are close by.

[Dean2]

So I am curious, did you find all the info from the previous posts useful and a good basis of a starting point to effectively hunt wolves?