There really is no game in the mountains!

[raab]

Whats everyones take on the Bighorn mountain WMU's 418-434? I went out this weekend for a quick look for Sheep again. Got a nice spot where I could glass for miles, with quite a few meadows, and openings I could see. I didn't end up seeing one thing for miles. No sheep, no deer, no elk, no moose. I guess the harvest reports don't lie in these particular WMUs.

If its the case that theres very few animals in these zones. Is the province allowing prescribed burns or logging to help improve the habitat in these areas? Or are there any other options which could be considered to help the area? What are your guys thoughts on the situation?

[41thunder]

Shoot any predator you see
And the hot weather doesn’t help finding game

[slough shark]

There are still animals in pockets, numbers are nowhere close to what there should be, predator hunting needs to become a lot more prevalent in several of those zones. I’ll be trying to do my part this winter on the wolves on my trapline.

[buckman]

Its hungry country alright.Wolves,Cougars ,Bears,Coyotes and hunting have taken there toll for sure.

Combine that with poor management, and you have a recipe for what we have now. It makes me angry and sad to see the prefect game habitat so lacking in the numbers they could,should and used to hold.

Yes the warm weather can be a factor in spotting game, but even in the right conditions some areas that were prime are way down.

I shoot Wolves on sight and have killed my share, however we need a proper cull in order to make a dent in the overall population.

As for the Cougar problem the numbers seem way up judging by the amount of tracks I see. Mule deer have suffered huge declines in the areas I hunt.

[DiabeticKripple]

Been trying to hunt elk out west, found a small pocket of them but I’m seeing more bears and wolves than elk. Also a big ass cougar.

Plan this winter is to go out with a bait site and try and get some wolves, bear is on the radar for fall and spring. If only I could get rid of the grizz too.

[buckman]

Its hungry country alright.Wolves,Cougars ,Bears,Coyotes and hunting have taken there toll for sure.

Combine that with poor management and you have a recipe for what we have now. It makes me angry, and sad to see the prefect game habitat so lacking in the numbers they could,should and used to hold.

Yes the warm weather can be a factor but even in the right conditions some areas that were prime are way down.

[raab]

Yep, predators are definitely an issue. But I think we could be creating more habitat to help the herds through prescribed burns. Lots of overgrown forests in that area that could be burned or logged to improve feed for them. On a side note I'm not as worried about the sheep population I know they're there. But there should be far more deer, moose, elk through that whole area. I think the wild horses are also having an impact on the area.

Was wondering if anyone knows what the government's plans are? Also think that the bighorn dam didn't help by flooding the meadow. Is there any way to remove it? Or does it supply to much of Alberta's energy?

I'll try to plan a few trips during cougar season to see if I cant help out with the predator population. Might even make it into the 300 zones around there as I already saw 1 wolf off the highway east of Nordegg.

[wildwoods]

Burns would go a very long way. I read the people and peaks book about the Willmore. About 120 + years ago, the natives would burn those valleys with prescribed burns. It would keep the willow and scrub brush down so the grass could grow for their horses. That grass was huge for the ungulates population. Lots more game back then. Still seeing deer, ek, moose, grizz, sheep, goats and wolves in that area. Wishing they would burn some of those valleys out again and help the critters though

[Grizzly Adams]

Mountains are never crawling with game, it's just not a highly productive habitat. Then time of day is important, most feeding takes place early in the day and near sunset. Recognize that and you'll see way more.

Grizz

[raab]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Mountains are never crawling with game, it's just not a highly productive habitat. Then time of day is important, most feeding takes place early in the day and near sunset. Recognize that and you'll see way more.

Grizz

O yea, definitely understand that. Just surprised I didn't see a thing and I stayed till sundown. Spent the last 30 minutes of light walking down the mountain because it was steep and I didn't feel like practicing my tuck and roll. There may be animals where I was, but its not holding many. If I did the same thing in some of the 300, and 200 zones I would have saw 20 deer minimum.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Mountains are never crawling with game, it's just not a highly productive habitat. Then time of day is important, most feeding takes place early in the day and near sunset. Recognize that and you'll see way more.

Grizz

I’ve seen the mountains crawling with game, and I’ve seen them void of it because people that were managing it properly are no longer allowed to.

It’s rare to see a moose, deer or elk track in most of the Wilmore these days, but not uncommon to see multiple grizzly everyday of a 10 day hunt.

It’s pathetic what they’ve allowed to happen, too many people are ok with Biologist dictating their own agendas

[roughneckin]

I was in the same area this weekend and saw very little ungulate sign, but did see a lot more burns and clear cuts then most years. Piles and piles of burn piles ready to be lit up this winter. Maybe things will return in a couple years for it.

With the warm weather and it was almost a full moon all weekend (along with Mars visible) it probably had something to do with it.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Mountains are never crawling with game, it's just not a highly productive habitat. Then time of day is important, most feeding takes place early in the day and near sunset. Recognize that and you'll see way more.

Grizz

When I first hunted the mountains of Alberta over 35 years ago game was plentiful.
Mule deer,Elk and Moose were all on general tags in most zones.

The increase in predators especially Wolves on the Elk and Moose, and Cougars on the Mule deer decreased the numbers substantially.

Whitetails are found in areas they were unheard of in years ago. A testimate to their ability to avid carnivores as well as hunters better than other game.

And yes you will see more of whats left early and late.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by roughneckin

I was in the same area this weekend and saw very little ungulate sign, but did see a lot more burns and clear cuts then most years. Piles and piles of burn piles ready to be lit up this winter. Maybe things will return in a couple years for it.

With the warm weather and it was almost a full moon all weekend (along with Mars visible) it probably had something to do with it.

They would still leave sign Moon or no Moon.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by roughneckin

I was in the same area this weekend and saw very little ungulate sign, but did see a lot more burns and clear cuts then most years. Piles and piles of burn piles ready to be lit up this winter. Maybe things will return in a couple years for it.

With the warm weather and it was almost a full moon all weekend (along with Mars visible) it probably had something to do with it.

I thought he was talking about the mountains and sheep country ? There’s no clear cuts or burn piles in the alpine.

I’m talking about burning valleys so the grass grows, not burning cut piles.

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I thought he was talking about the mountains and sheep country ? There’s no clear cuts or burn piles in the alpine.

I’m talking about burning valleys so the grass grows, not burning cut piles.

Yep me too. Easy baby step for the bio’s. Not sure why this solution went the way of the dodo bird...

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I thought he was talking about the mountains and sheep country ? There’s no clear cuts or burn piles in the alpine.

I’m talking about burning valleys so the grass grows, not burning cut piles.

Sorry was just talking in the general sense not specifically the alpine as he spoke about ungulates and horses too later down the posts. Just seeing lots of new disturbance that might’ve drove some animals further afield.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I thought he was talking about the mountains and sheep country ? There’s no clear cuts or burn piles in the alpine.

I’m talking about burning valleys so the grass grows, not burning cut piles.

Yep, x3. I'd like to see some of the valleys or parts of the valleys cleared of coniferous trees in that area. It would give the animals more feed and hopefully increase numbers. It'd be a win for everyone really. It's a win for the tourist as they now see more game, its a win for the animals as they now don't starve, its a win for the forest as it increases forest biodiversity.

[OL_JR]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Mountains are never crawling with game, it's just not a highly productive habitat. Then time of day is important, most feeding takes place early in the day and near sunset. Recognize that and you'll see way more.

Grizz

I agree with this for the most part but the elk and mule deer have taken a real beating in numbers just going by what folks tell me that use to hunt the west country in the old days.

I don't think it would ever be realistic though to see the numbers of deer out in the hills that you would see in the parkland.

Sheep on the other hand seem to be doing well imho but they aren't hanging around on every mountain and never have, there has been a lot of great sheep taken this year again and not just squeakers.

[NCC]

There used to be 150 elk in the Blackstone in the 90's and now there are zero. Plenty of grass, no poachers, no subsistence hunters, no industrial activity and no cow tags.

Same thing in the National Parks and the Willmore. The grass is stirrup high, virtually no hunting pressure, and there are very few ungulates.

These are just two examples of the many mountain areas that don't see much hunting pressure and have no game animals left. The ungulates aren't starving to death, they're being killed by predators. When a herd of 30 cow elk has no calves by fall, it's not a nutritional problem.

The bio in BC that had video of a single gbear killing 50 caribou calves should be enough evidence to convince SRD that predators are the problem but no one wants to believe it.

[pikeman06]

Mules are hurting for sure. Elk are a myth. Looks like prime country but you are right, numbers down, waste of time unless you got a month to hunt.

[raab]

Originally Posted by NCC

There used to be 150 elk in the Blackstone in the 90's and now there are zero. Plenty of grass, no poachers, no subsistence hunters, no industrial activity and no cow tags.

Same thing in the National Parks and the Willmore. The grass is stirrup high, virtually no hunting pressure, and there are very few ungulates.

These are just two examples of the many mountain areas that don't see much hunting pressure and have no game animals left. The ungulates aren't starving to death, they're being killed by predators. When a herd of 30 cow elk has no calves by fall, it's not a nutritional problem.

The bio in BC that had video of a single gbear killing 50 caribou calves should be enough evidence to convince SRD that predators are the problem but no one wants to believe it.

So what would your solution be?

[Stinky Coyote]

Lol, manage the predators. Good luck Lucy.

We keep dogs and cats as pets, then the Disney factor, ya...what needs to happen won’t. But what needs to happen is predators need to become scarce for awhile and then the ungulate numbers will start to come back.

As it stands we are supposed to level pred/ungulate swings somewhat...wildlife management. But we aren’t really allowed due to the climate of in-equal love for the predators. So we have been and will remain predator high for a long long time.

[41thunder]

Originally Posted by raab

So what would your solution be?

Bring back the grizzly hunt and start poisoning the wolves

[Stinky Coyote]

Yup, some aerial culls also.

Love them all the same. No favorites.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

I agree with this for the most part but the elk and mule deer have taken a real beating in numbers just going by what folks tell me that use to hunt the west country in the old days.

I don't think it would ever be realistic though to see the numbers of deer out in the hills that you would see in the parkland.

Sheep on the other hand seem to be doing well imho but they aren't hanging around on every mountain and never have, there has been a lot of great sheep taken this year again and not just squeakers.

I think the elk have moved east, much easier living on agricultural land with the option of retreating back to the hills, Mule deer were always a vulnerable species, in fact, like elk, they were reintroduced to the province in the 1920s, after a massive decline. White Tailed deer seem to do well about everywhere, given half a chance. A lot of factors at play when it comes to game numbers. In my experience, moose have just about disappeared from the mountain and foothills areas.

Grizz

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

I think the elk have moved east, much easier living on agricultural land with the option of retreating back to the hills, Mule deer were always a vulnerable species, in fact, like elk, they were reintroduced to the province in the 1920s, after a massive decline. White Tailed deer seem to do well about everywhere, given half a chance. A lot of factors at play when it comes to game numbers. In my experience, moose have just about disappeared from the mountain and foothills areas.

Grizz

Hebblewhite's telemetry study in Yaha and adjacent areas would dispel the notion as myth.

Predators did influence small bands to relocate relatively short distances to new range, but still well within the mountains.


The same is true from the top of Alberta's rockies down south to the Bow River. And now predators are significantly reducing deer, elk and moose numbers south of the Bow.

Quite simply, predators have wiped out mountain elk to a degree of more than 90%. Some herds including the previously famous Yaha/Banff migratory herd are now extirpated.

I've been saying this for years now...
It is an absolute dereliction of duty by Alberta biologists to allow these native animals to be wiped out for the sake of a few temporary politicians maintaining peace with the anti-predator management voters.


Habitat enhancement would be great if and only if predator reductions are also enacted.

[hunterngather]

Originally Posted by raab

Yep, predators are definitely an issue. But I think we could be creating more habitat to help the herds through prescribed burns. Lots of overgrown forests in that area that could be burned or logged to improve feed for them. On a side note I'm not as worried about the sheep population I know they're there. But there should be far more deer, moose, elk through that whole area. I think the wild horses are also having an impact on the area.

Was wondering if anyone knows what the government's plans are? Also think that the bighorn dam didn't help by flooding the meadow. Is there any way to remove it? Or does it supply to much of Alberta's energy?

I'll try to plan a few trips during cougar season to see if I cant help out with the predator population. Might even make it into the 300 zones around there as I already saw 1 wolf off the highway east of Nordegg.

Is this not a prime example where the GOA could provide numbers via drones on numbers of predators? I cant think it would be that expensive?

Why cant we have a cull in strategically determined areas via drone data?

[cody j]

Originally Posted by NCC

There used to be 150 elk in the Blackstone in the 90's and now there are zero. Plenty of grass, no poachers, no subsistence hunters, no industrial activity and no cow tags.

Same thing in the National Parks and the Willmore. The grass is stirrup high, virtually no hunting pressure, and there are very few ungulates.

These are just two examples of the many mountain areas that don't see much hunting pressure and have no game animals left. The ungulates aren't starving to death, they're being killed by predators. When a herd of 30 cow elk has no calves by fall, it's not a nutritional problem.

The bio in BC that had video of a single gbear killing 50 caribou calves should be enough evidence to convince SRD that predators are the problem but no one wants to believe it.

The trend seems to be to make management decisions on predators based on feelings,emotions and politics rather than facts and science

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by NCC

There used to be 150 elk in the Blackstone in the 90's and now there are zero. Plenty of grass, no poachers, no subsistence hunters, no industrial activity and no cow tags.

Same thing in the National Parks and the Willmore. The grass is stirrup high, virtually no hunting pressure, and there are very few ungulates.

These are just two examples of the many mountain areas that don't see much hunting pressure and have no game animals left. The ungulates aren't starving to death, they're being killed by predators. When a herd of 30 cow elk has no calves by fall, it's not a nutritional problem.

The bio in BC that had video of a single gbear killing 50 caribou calves should be enough evidence to convince SRD that predators are the problem but no one wants to believe it.

Have predators not been around as long the deer, elk, moose, goats, and sheep? Everyone talks about the good old days where there used to be lots of game. They have been logging and clear cutting areas for over a hundred years and even with logging the grass still grows as it get sunlight and water. I have seen lots of elk in these areas feeding. As far as predators go if they have been around as long as the ungulates why is it just now that we seem to think we have a problem with them. Do you seriously think that the no grizzly bear hunt has a lot to do with it, now remember when the grizzly hunt was still on it was very limited tags per zone and not all those tags were filled in those zones every year. I’m sure the cat numbers haven’t exploded either as they still have a hunt for them, same with the wolves. Trappers are still trapping are they not? If there were more ungulates back in the good old days wouldn’t that mean more predators, oh and back in the good old days there were also a way fewer hunters out there then there are today. Do you not think human pressure has something to do with the problem, and back in the good old days it was easier to access areas as well. Cutting down the ease of access mean less people going into some of these areas which in turn makes it easier on the predators.