CBC radio report on the state of mountain caribou in AB

[NCC]

I caught the tale end of a CBC report on caribou this morning. The host seemed to be intent on diverting attention away from wolves when the bios mentioned that they ate caribou, but it other than that, it seemed pretty balanced. I always thought the importance of the loss of old growth forest was exaggerated, but these bios changed my thoughts of the subject. The points that stood out to me were:

Caribou have existing in North America much longer than deer, elk and moose, surviving several ice ages.

The major decline of mountain caribou is a result of logging in the high mountains. Before modern logging operations, caribou inhabited the mountains in low density populations. The population densities of caribou were low, and there were no elk, moose or deer in these old growth forests. This made it uneconomical for any predators to live in the old growth forests, so the caribou were pretty much unmolested. Once large scale logging started to occur, the caribou were concentrated into smaller areas, and the new grasslands that resulted from the removal of the old growth forests created habitat that supported deer, elk and moose. The wolves, bears and cougars followed the deer, elk and moose up the mountain, and found the caribou much easier to catch and kill than other ungulate species.

One of the bios also mentioned unregulated hunting as a major cause of the decline prior to 1950.

The segment is worth listening to, if it can be found in the archives.

[thumper]

Absolutely amazing! A 'relatively' balanced show on CBC ?

[Talking moose]

Spot on in regards to opening up Old growth to allow the other ungulates in to graze.

[Salavee]

.... which makes absolute sense as to the Mtn Caribou's demise.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Sorry, no logging in National parks, caribou gone wolves and bears ate them then pooped them out for fertilizer. Logging and cutlines are red herrings with respect to caribou.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Sorry, no logging in National parks, caribou gone wolves and bears ate them then pooped them out for fertilizer. Logging and cutlines are red herrings with respect to caribou.

As many bears and wolves in northern B.C. but still caribou. Honestly why is that?

[CritterCommander]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

As many bears and wolves in northern B.C. but still caribou. Honestly why is that?

Once they finish up in the parks they're headed north....for sure.

Honestly, the northern Caribou are also suffering, predation is also a huge factor as is habitat change.

And it's going to be waaay expensive to save them, that's the way it goes in todays world.

[walking buffalo]

Where is the evidence that "Old Growth" habitat loss is a factor in Caribou population reductions?


How did these caribou prosper before humans idolized Smokey the Bear?

How could the Michipicoten Island caribou herd prosper in sub par habitat, before wolves colonized the island?
Why do the researchers at Michipicoten now recognize that Old Growth may not be so important....

I suspect we are being fed a mantra here....


The research into Woodland caribou likes to say "old Growth" is a necessity, yet there is no evidence that this is correct.
Where is the evidence of starving caribou?

Predators and human disturbance have been shown to negatively effect caribou, but I strongly question the assertion that Caribou must have Old Growth to survive. It just doesn't make sense that this species could prosper for millennia over a vast and wide range of ecotypes yet is somehow so fragile.


Anyone remember the Spotted Owl?

Turns out Spotted Owls prosper in regenerating cut-blocks.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

As many bears and wolves in northern B.C. but still caribou. Honestly why is that?

Sarcasm?

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Sarcasm?

No. Is there not as many bears and wolves in northern B.C.? Is there more mtn caribou in Alberta than B.C.?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

No. Is there not as many bears and wolves in northern B.C.? Is there more mtn caribou in Alberta than B.C.?

Caribou populations are crashing all over northern BC....

Wolves and Grizzlies are doing great.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Caribou populations are crashing all over northern BC....

Wolves and Grizzlies are doing great.

Ahhhh. Thought they were still doing ok over there...

[NCC]

If the science shows that caribou populations thrived in the mountains because there were few predators around, the easy conclusion should be that the predator populations in the foothills and mountains need to be reduced to pre-settlement numbers. Open a general g-bear season, extend cougar seasons, offer some incentives for trappers to remove wolves, and the caribou will likely recover.

[Suzukisam]

Can’t be the bears. There are no grizzleys in Alberta maybe that’s because no caribou to eat. Wait on month new study will show its the pipelines in bc

[dustinjoels]

Originally Posted by NCC

If the science shows that caribou populations thrived in the mountains because there were few predators around, the easy conclusion should be that the predator populations in the foothills and mountains need to be reduced to pre-settlement numbers. Open a general g-bear season, extend cougar seasons, offer some incentives for trappers to remove wolves, and the caribou will likely recover.

Nope. The bios have decided to kill all the deer and moose in caribou country so as to starve out the predators. Ludicrous

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Ahhhh. Thought they were still doing ok over there...

25 years ago you could drive up the Alaska hwy to Ft. Nelson and see numerous caribou along the hwy. Haven't seen one for years up there now....

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

25 years ago you could drive up the Alaska hwy to Ft. Nelson and see numerous caribou along the hwy. Haven't seen one for years up there now....

That’s about the time I worked up at pink mountain/muncho lake/Watson lake. Seen quite a few.

[SlimChance]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Where is the evidence that "Old Growth" habitat loss is a factor in Caribou population reductions?


How did these caribou prosper before humans idolized Smokey the Bear?

How could the Michipicoten Island caribou herd prosper in sub par habitat, before wolves colonized the island?
Why do the researchers at Michipicoten now recognize that Old Growth may not be so important....

I suspect we are being fed a mantra here....


The research into Woodland caribou likes to say "old Growth" is a necessity, yet there is no evidence that this is correct.
Where is the evidence of starving caribou?

Predators and human disturbance have been shown to negatively effect caribou, but I strongly question the assertion that Caribou must have Old Growth to survive. It just doesn't make sense that this species could prosper for millennia over a vast and wide range of ecotypes yet is somehow so fragile.


Anyone remember the Spotted Owl?

Turns out Spotted Owls prosper in regenerating cut-blocks.

I'm not up to speed on any caribou debates but the OP reads as saying that old growth forest kept other ungulates out of caribou habitat which kept predator numbers low.

In my mind, that dovetails with the Michipicotin herd in that the old growth created a largely predator free area for caribou just like the island created a predator barrier.

I guess I'm not seeing a rejection of the idea that predators are a major cause of declining caribou numbers among the biologists interviewed.

But, without those predator buffers (which are probably not feasible to recreate) we'll have to keep predators from moving into caribou habitat somehow.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by SlimChance

I'm not up to speed on any caribou debates but the OP reads as saying that old growth forest kept other ungulates out of caribou habitat which kept predator numbers low.

In my mind, that dovetails with the Michipicotin herd in that the old growth created a largely predator free area for caribou just like the island created a predator barrier.

I guess I'm not seeing a rejection of the idea that predators are a major cause of declining caribou numbers among the biologists interviewed.

But, without those predator buffers (which are probably not feasible to recreate) we'll have to keep predators from moving into caribou habitat somehow.

I won't disagree with you, as we are kind of saying the same thing. the population decline in either scenario (old growth or not) is caused by predators. Lower predator numbers equal lowered caribou mortality.

Biologists know this. Getting the authorization from governments to deal with the predators is another matter.


OK, these caribou are done.

Can we now focus on saving our "Rocky Mountain" Elk.
Their populations in the Alberta mountains has decreased 90% in the last decade. When will the public and hunters in particular take notice and demand that we take action Now!?

[SlimChance]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I won't disagree with you, as we are kind of saying the same thing. the population decline in either scenario (old growth or not) is caused by predators. Lower predator numbers equal lowered caribou mortality.

Biologists know this. Getting the authorization from governments to deal with the predators is another matter.


OK, these caribou are done.

Can we now focus on saving our "Rocky Mountain" Elk.
Their populations in the Alberta mountains has decreased 90% in the last decade. When will the public and hunters in particular take notice and demand that we take action Now!?

Yeah, I wasn't sure where you were coming from but that's a pretty reasonable response.

It seems like the only real solution for caribou is to create an artificial low-predator area for them. Encourage or relax restrictions on predator hunting in wmu's that are designated as caribou zones or something like that.

What are the major pressures on elk population?

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by SlimChance

Yeah, I wasn't sure where you were coming from but that's a pretty reasonable response.

It seems like the only real solution for caribou is to create an artificial low-predator area for them. Encourage or relax restrictions on predator hunting in wmu's that are designated as caribou zones or something like that.

What are the major pressures on elk population?

Cougars, wolves, and during calving, black and grizzly bears.