Baiting In Alberta

Originally Posted by bobbypetrolia

So are these sitting experiences with outfitters or just personal bait sites?

Oh, and BTW, I didn't call you a liar. You should re read your signature.

LOL...when you say something is not true you are accusing them of lying...lol I know it wasn't malicious....I was just explaining why I came back to post after saying I was done. No harm done.

The majority were with outfitters yes.

[pottymouth]

The difference between a field and a bait pile, is. One the leaves or seeds are eaten off the stem/stock there is no reason for a deer to revisit that said stem. Keeps them moving.

I thought grain spills and faulty storage bins were supposed to be cleaned up and maintained, with fines levied against those that fail to do so. There shouldn't be any excuses.

And it isn't just cwd that's detrimental to our animals and land from baiting. The introduction of non native grasses and seeds in non traditional areas could have huge environmental impacts.

Here's my assumption, in a thread full of them. There's a lot more guys on AO, already baiting and hunting over it, than I originally thought.....

[bobbypetrolia]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...when you say something is not true you are accusing them of lying...lol I know it wasn't malicious....I was just explaining why I came back to post after saying I was done. No harm done.

The majority were with outfitters yes.

And these were all for whitetail in Saskatchewan?

Originally Posted by bobbypetrolia

And these were all for whitetail in Saskatchewan?

Primarily yup.....atleast 60 of the days...perhaps more....never really counted.

[bobbypetrolia]

Great. Thanks. Answered my questions.

Originally Posted by bobbypetrolia

Great. Thanks. Answered my questions.

No problem!

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

The difference between a field and a bait pile, is. One the leaves or seeds are eaten off the stem/stock there is no reason for a deer to revisit that said stem. Keeps them moving.

I thought grain spills and faulty storage bins were supposed to be cleaned up and maintained, with fines levied against those that fail to do so. There shouldn't be any excuses.

And it isn't just cwd that's detrimental to our animals and land from baiting. The introduction of non native grasses and seeds in non traditional areas could have huge environmental impacts.

Here's my assumption, in a thread full of them. There's a lot more guys on AO, already baiting and hunting over it, than I originally thought.....

X2, especially on the last paragraph

Originally Posted by pottymouth

The difference between a field and a bait pile, is. One the leaves or seeds are eaten off the stem/stock there is no reason for a deer to revisit that said stem. Keeps them moving.

I thought grain spills and faulty storage bins were supposed to be cleaned up and maintained, with fines levied against those that fail to do so. There shouldn't be any excuses.

And it isn't just cwd that's detrimental to our animals and land from baiting. The introduction of non native grasses and seeds in non traditional areas could have huge environmental impacts.

Here's my assumption, in a thread full of them. There's a lot more guys on AO, already baiting and hunting over it, than I originally thought.....

Pretty well said for an ESL poster

You nailed it Potty.

[bobbypetrolia]

The thing I found the most interesting as well was how many people are pro baiting. The thing that gets me are the ones that say they are against baiting, yet will not hesitate to hunt over bait.

Originally Posted by bobbypetrolia

The thing I found the most interesting as well was how many people are pro baiting. The thing that gets me are the ones that say they are against baiting, yet will not hesitate to hunt over bait.

I suppose it is a bit hypocritical for sure. In my defence it's something I haven't done for a number of years and it was 100% legal where I did it. Would I hunt bait where legal again? Can't honestly say but I do know there is sufficient evidence in my mind to say that allowing baiting for hunting in Alberta is not a good idea. I'm not advocating a bait ban in areas where legal but preventing an increase in the practice seems prudent.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Nimby

lc

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Nimby

lc

Perhaps to some degree but not really. I don't have a stake in the other jurisdictions like local hunters do and likely don't totally grasp everything involved there so likely best for me to keep my nose out of it. I do have a stake in what happens in Alberta and feel I have a good grasp on it. NIMBY implies something is going to happen and you are happy as long as it's not in your backyard....that's not the case here. NIMBY...not guilty.....Hypocritical...possibly. Like I said too...its something I've chosen not to do for several years as well.

[ishootbambi]

ok, i have a break from the hectic schedule and i have calmed down some.

as i said, i spoke with trent bollinger the other day. he is a hunter, a biologist, and the leading guy dealing with cwd in canada right from day one. i asked him a few direct questions and he gave me a few direct answers.

i asked him if he felt that cwd is spreading at an alarming rate. he answered no, but that he is afraid that in the future....like several decades that there is indication that mule deer bucks will be most affected, and there may be a decrease in the number of older age class deer available and that it will affect hunting oppotunities. i pointed out that hasnt been the case in colorado which has had the disease the longest...already over 30 years in the wild...and they have deer herds that have expanded in number statewide with plenty of older age class bucks available. i further pointed out that elk numbers grew by quite a bit more since 1981. his response was that his research shows that he is correct, but the results wont be seen widely for several decades.

i have to show that what he is saying is guesswork. the proven facts for the future can be seen in colorado. the state has a deer density many times what we have in alberta, and given that density plays a role, it is safe to say that the evidence available shows a much lower actual prevalence than what is being projected. for the life of me, i cant understand why this evidence is being ignored.

next question is where does trent stand on culling as a cwd management tool. he said that once it is established, culling is futile as the prions that transmit the disease are already in the environment. he does believe that in newly infected areas, that culling can be used to slow the spread of the disease. his reasoning was that there are few animals shedding prions and by killing them, they will stop spreading them to more deer. give his reasoning of culling being ineffective in established areas, i dont see the logic in using it in new areas for the same reasons he stated. in his own words....at best he hopes to slow the spread, and conceded it is impossible to stop the spread.

he also informed me of some research ongoing right now near cabri sk. there are 70 mule deer wearing collars there. they are congregating around a leaking grain bin and are bedding in a small coulee within 100 yards of the bin. it is in his words a miniature game farm with no fence. live tests have indicated that there are 35 of the 70 infected with cwd currently. when i asked him about the validity of the live test for cwd, he conceded that accuracy isnt as good as researchers would like, but stopped short of saying how inaccurate the live test might be. at any rate, he is reporting a 50% infection in a tiny isolated area. they are intending to let the disease run its course and monitor these deer for the time being. ill try to get an update on that in a few months.

when i asked him if he felt comfortable reporting that an area of saskatchewan is seeing 50% infection, he said that yes, he would, but would be specific in his findings, and mention the isolation.

my view is that you can make stats look like anything you want them to. kinda like someone saying that 3 deer were introduced into a game famr and 100% infection occurred. i hardly think the number is a good indication of a representative sample. remember someone else reported the 470ish tested heads with 0 infection in the hot area near chauvin alberta....again a sample too small to come to any conclusion.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

he also informed me of some research ongoing right now near cabri sk. there are 70 mule deer wearing collars there. they are congregating around a leaking grain bin and are bedding in a small coulee within 100 yards of the bin. it is in his words a miniature game farm with no fence. live tests have indicated that there are 35 of the 70 infected with cwd currently. when i asked him about the validity of the live test for cwd, he conceded that accuracy isnt as good as researchers would like, but stopped short of saying how inaccurate the live test might be. at any rate, he is reporting a 50% infection in a tiny isolated area. they are intending to let the disease run its course and monitor these deer for the time being. ill try to get an update on that in a few months.

when i asked him if he felt comfortable reporting that an area of saskatchewan is seeing 50% infection, he said that yes, he would, but would be specific in his findings, and mention the isolation.

.

Interesting. I think the infection rate in a typical wild population that has had CWD present for a long time span is around 2-5% and can range as high as 20%. Add a concentrated source of feed and that number does seem to skyrocket, even if you allow for error in the live test. Interesting

asked him if he felt that cwd is spreading at an alarming rate. he answered no, but that he is afraid that in the future....like several decades that there is indication that mule deer bucks will be most affected, and there may be a decrease in the number of older age class deer available and that it will affect hunting oppotunities. i pointed out that hasnt been the case in colorado which has had the disease the longest...already over 30 years in the wild...and they have deer herds that have expanded in number statewide with plenty of older age class bucks available.

I've seen quite a bit of research to support his position that you rarely see an overall decline in population but you do in the upper age class. What reasearch are you basing your conclusion on that Colorado has "plenty" of older age class bucks?

Sounds like you had a very informative talk with someone very knowledgeable on the subject of CWD....good info!

[ishootbambi]

and then yesterday i spoke with albertas cwd expert. i asked the same questions, and got answers a little different.

when asked if culling is a good idea in alberta, i was told emphatically yes. she said that once the disease is established it wont be eliminated, but she feels that the spread can be controlled. i asked how thats possible when prions exist in the environment, and the response was that the less animals that are present will result in a slower spread of the disease.

so we are back to killing deer to save deer? culls in this province have killed thousands of deer, yet the number of positives are 127. i asked how that arithmetic makes sense? i was told it is unknown if any slowing effect had happened, and was met with silence on how killing thousands of deer to save a few made sense.

i asked if we are going to be facing more culling in the future. the answer was that culls havent happended since 2008. i pointed out that more than 400 antlered mule tags in 200 and 234 and several hundred more in surrounding zones coupled with unlimited supplemental tags are simply a cull by another name. she disagreed, and insisted it was simple herd management. she then pointed out that the december seasons and early primitive seasons had been ended. i pointed out that she already said that wasnt called culling.....and was again met with silence. i asked if we can expect an increase in tag numbers in any new mwus where cwd will be found. she replied it was likely.

i asked if she was who wrote the page on cwd found in our hunting regs. she said yes it was her who had prepared the report. i asked why she printed some very incorrect statements. she denied any errors. i specifically read paragraph 2 on page 29 of the regs. it says....

Local deer populations in Colorado and Wyoming, where the disease has existed for decades, display dramatic population declines, with up to 50% mortality and significantly lower birth rate over the last 10 years. The declines are attributed directly to the effects of CWD. Infected populations now have younger deer, lower productivity, and fewer trophy males.

as i was on the phone, i had my computer open to the CDOW website that directly refuted these claims. i posted links to most of it in post 341 in this thread.

i asked what was considered a local population and the answer was a DMZ (deer management zone) which is the equivalent of a wmu in alberta. i said there is no way...i am looking at the info right now and the highest DMZ ifection rate is 12.8%, and that much of colorado is to this day CWD free. she then changed her mind and went with the words, "its a local population".

i then asked where she got the info for lower birth rates and population decline as the info i posted in post 341 shows growth in the mule deer herd, and significant growth in the elk herd over the last 10 years. there was a one year drop in mule deer numbers, and the website i quoted says that was due largely to habitat loss...not cwd. again she said it referred to a "local" population. she refused to say what that meant, but i can only guess it must be similar to trent bollingers findings on a group of 70 deer. i think to report the info in the regs the way it was as a significant scientific finding is pretty misleading.

i asked for an email address for her so i could send her the links to the info i was reading. the response i got was "im not giving you my info or any of my colleagues. we have better things to do than look at websites you provide". i asked how she can ignore the information from the colorado division of wildlife and their information regarding cwd? again....silence. i asked where i could find the info she was telling us about the 50% infection and reduced birthrates and low older age class males etc......i was told it isnt available on the internet as the researchers have better things to do than to update websites. i offered that the website i was referring to was updated in august of 2012.....again silence. i offered to give my contact info so she could send me the info she was reporting....the data used to write the report on page 29 of the regs. i was told no.

one other question i asked was if she still believed the reports from computer modelling showing 100% infection of deer in alberta. she said that srd never made such a claim. i was there when it was said at the landowner meetings back in 2005. that reminds me very much of jean chretien and his flat out lie "i never said we would scrap da gst".....

in short, it seems that we can look forward to more culling in the future even though it has been proven ineffective everywhere it has been tried, and the only way to get to the truth might be to research this disease yourself. my advice is that if you want to learn the truth.....go to the sources that have dealt with the disease the longest....colorado. it disgusts me that some mistruths have been told to us here in alberta. page 29 of the regs is a good example of that. i find it disturbing that the most thorough and reliable sources of information on cwd are found on an outdoors forum.....

well, there are some exceptions...like this thread...http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=85207

and from that thread this quote

The disease is heading westward at an alarming rate.

knowledge is power people. we all need to stay informed. cwd is going to have a drastic effect on hunting in this province....but not because it will wipe out deer. the mismanagement seen along the border wmus is coming soon to a wmu near you.

oh, and one question that keeps coming to me in pm is "why do you know so much and care so much about this disease?" the answer is that the very first wmu to be destroyed by poor decisions was one of my favorite places to bowhunt mule deer. it is no coincidence that i havent bow killed a mule deer since day 1 of the cwd fiasco.....and i hate to think this will happen province wide...

[ishootbambi]

im not ignoring you david...been busy with work, and yesterday i was too angry to be posting.

Originally Posted by Speckle55

[/B]



i also have given my opinion where i stand on these issues what are yours on what i posted

if you had read the report they put 3 animals into the pen and all three died from prion infection,, if any animal is in a pen and another is infective then most likely they will get it too and die

ive already said it....3 animals is not anywhere close to a conclusive indicator. the report i mentioned was where they let cwd run its course over a few years. infection peaked at 60% indicating some animals may be naturally immune. in fairness, infection may have grown if left for a decade or more....jsut reporting what was found. similar results are in with cattle and BSE. no herd of cattle has shown 100% infection either.

so where do you stand on these issues

i dont think baiting needs to be allowed in alberta. the disease issue to me is unproven. its known that concentrating animals increases risk, yet saskatchewan next door allows it and has very similar infection rates in their deer herds. im ok with making the error on the sdie of caution, but the bigger reason for not allowing it is the conflict between hunters that is sure to arise.

i do not agree with Deer or Elk farming or hunt farms in Sask or anywhere ..

neither do i. it is clearly proven that game farms imported cwd to canada, and our wild herds have been infected becasue of it. there is no market for meat, there is no market for velvet...the only market for farmed animals is for shoot farms. thats something else i am completely against for reason already stated in other threads.

to be clear though...testing on farms has all but eliminated the thread of cwd there, so to say game farms are causing the spread of cwd today would be misleading.


it all started in 1 GMU in Col now look where it is ... so don,t do anything and it will be in most wmu in Alberta in 30 years as it has spread all ready ..

if we don,t make some hard choices as in Europe then it will spread

wrong david. i already showed you where it is in colorado. about half the state is cwd free.....

http://wildlife.state.co.us/SiteColl...bMap2010MD.pdf

and consider the size of colorado as well as the deer density there vs here. all known info says we will never see the infection rates they have. it has also been proven that so far any and all efforts to stop the spread of the disease have failed. the most common method used for control has been culling, and the only thing that does is guarantee a reduction in deer numbers. cwd has not reduced populations anywhere it exsists, but mismanagement through culling sure has.

the sad thing is, you may get your wish. if a positive is found in your neighbourhood, you can expect culling to effect you shortly after. when you see your hunting area decimated for no good reason, you will have a change of heart....i promise....

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I've seen quite a bit of research to support his position that you rarely see an overall decline in population but you do in the upper age class. What reasearch are you basing your conclusion on that Colorado has "plenty" of older age class bucks?

given that hunters are consistently after those older age class bucks, its not an exact science to say that any one thing is having a noticeable effect on older age class bucks in wild populations. hunters killing them reduce their numbers as well....but the fact they still are killing them says they are there in good supply. i posted a link to the article once before on this forum, it was from one of the hunting mags that had shown several mature bucks taken from the cwd hotspots in both colorado and wyoming. state record keepers, B&C entries, and hunter submitted stories have shown no decrease in mature bucks from these areas of higher concentrations of cwd. i concede the evidence for what im saying is anecdotal and not scientific....but there is no scientific proof there are less mature bucks in these areas either. i have only seen studies done on captive deer showing what you are saying....and that is not a fair comparison.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Dale....I want to thank you for sharing this information with us here. I think this is something we all need to be aware of.

LC

[NIKON]

[QUOTE=ishootbambi;1751238]im not ignoring you david...been busy with work, and yesterday i was too angry to be posting.




wrong david. i already showed you where it is in colorado. about half the state is cwd free.....

http://wildlife.state.co.us/SiteColl...bMap2010MD.pdf

and consider the size of colorado as well as the deer density there vs here. all known info says we will never see the infection rates they have. it has also been proven that so far any and all efforts to stop the spread of the disease have failed. the most common method used for control has been culling, and the only thing that does is guarantee a reduction in deer numbers. cwd has not reduced populations anywhere it exsists, but mismanagement through culling sure has.

the sad thing is, you may get your wish. if a positive is found in your neighbourhood, you can expect culling to effect you shortly after. when you see your hunting area decimated for no good reason, you will have a change of heart....i promise....[/QUOTE]

Well put Dale, thanks for your research .... like i said all along if they aren't testing ( 1000's of mandatory head submissions it doesn't exist , right?) If they were to find cwd west of edmonton or north it would blow this cwd thing wide open and I know for a fact some posters would change their tune in a hurry , it's a known fact cwd existed in Deer and Elk farms west of the border.....It exists in the soil, fact

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

given that hunters are consistently after those older age class bucks, its not an exact science to say that any one thing is having a noticeable effect on older age class bucks in wild populations. hunters killing them reduce their numbers as well....but the fact they still are killing them says they are there in good supply. i posted a link to the article once before on this forum, it was from one of the hunting mags that had shown several mature bucks taken from the cwd hotspots in both colorado and wyoming. state record keepers, B&C entries, and hunter submitted stories have shown no decrease in mature bucks from these areas of higher concentrations of cwd. i concede the evidence for what im saying is anecdotal and not scientific....but there is no scientific proof there are less mature bucks in these areas either. i have only seen studies done on captive deer showing what you are saying....and that is not a fair comparison.

I'd actually suggest there is some science on the age structure of wild populations.

A few pics of a few big bucks really doesn't tell too much...unless of course some one said that there were no big bucks left and I've never heard that.

One of the things that people seem to be struggling with is that CWD is not and all or nothing disease. It affects a percentage of the population...in some cases a small percentage. Many factors contribute to this, far too many to make a direct comparison of a particular population to Alberta. Heck, I suspect the infection rate among populations could vary widely in Alberta. So to say a certain population has plenty of big bucks really means nothing. In an area with a low infection rate, the age structure may not be severely affected, likely not enough for a guy that doesn't live there reading a magazine to notice. In areas with a high infection rate....perhaps the magazine pictures might be indicitive or perhaps not.

Pretty well everything I've tried to say here has been blown way out of perspective but being the glutton for punishment I am, I'll say it again. Baiting/concentrating deer could very likely increase the infection rate of CWD in Aberta. That's enough for me to say no. The sky isn't falling and we aren't going to likely see a population difference in the province in our lifetime but as we increase the risk factors, we will increase the rate of infection. That rate may only increase a percentage or two every decade but make no mistake it will increase. It will likely be imperceptable to most but 100 years from now, it will likely be obvious. "I don't personally see a difference" really means squat in regards to CWD and the very short time it's been present in our cervid populations. As I've said many times....give it time.

Will culls slow its progress across the province? Absolutely. Do the number of deer being killed justify the rate at which we are slowing the progress of CWD? That is certainly wide open for debate. I suspect these words will also be twisted into pretzles but that's expected on this board. Hopefully some people read what it is I'm actually saying

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'd actually suggest there is some science on the age structure of wild populations.

i would like to think that by now it is obvious that i have read the links and info from EVERY person that has posted anything to do with this disease every time it comes up on this forum. i have learned a ton of information due to this forum, and i have even learned a few things this round as well.

if you have links to what you are saying i am interested in seeing it....because so far i have seen nothing to indicate what you are saying has been proven.

i have already stated that what i am reporting is anecdotal and not scientific evidence regarding wild populations. hunter harvest of mature mule bucks in known cwd hotspots from colorado and wyoming is consistent with historical trends. interpret that as you may.

[wbl170]

Thx for all the info Dale,and to others as well. Information we should all be aware of. And sypher through the bs.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

hunter harvest of mature mule bucks in known cwd hotspots from colorado and wyoming is consistent with historical trends. interpret that as you may.

I'd need to see the data to be able to interpret it.......

[msheppardbrown]

Originally Posted by bobbypetrolia

The thing I found the most interesting as well was how many people are pro baiting. The thing that gets me are the ones that say they are against baiting, yet will not hesitate to hunt over bait.

The first lesson is free. Next one is going to cost you.

Owned...

[Speckle55]

Thanks Dale for taking the time and reporting your ph call with Trent and Margo .. they are just doing their jobs and trying to slow CWD till we can halt the expansion .

if this was a CDC protocol then there would be a easy answer put on it and we would getting it stopped as a Quarantine would be in place

if it was in my area which it is Alberta then i would expect and demand that they sacrifice the few too save the many WMU's ..

so i back any and all methods of slowing and stopping the transmission of CWD to my Province and Canada and will even offer my time to help .. as this post is being read by many it is a tool to inform the many who will inform others ..

i also back Rat Patrol.. and feral animal/fish control in Alberta

Here is Bob Davies ph 970-472-4416 Col F&W CWD ask him what his pro opinion on Baiting is

on Col the number of GMU has gone up but it has mainly spread north.... Fort Collins area was the infection site .. and they scratch their heads when a Moose infection was 50 miles from an infection source..


next is Big Horn Sheep or Cariboo up here if it make's the mountains

Food for Thought

David

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

The difference between a field and a bait pile, is. One the leaves or seeds are eaten off the stem/stock there is no reason for a deer to revisit that said stem. Keeps them moving.

I thought grain spills and faulty storage bins were supposed to be cleaned up and maintained, with fines levied against those that fail to do so. There shouldn't be any excuses.

And it isn't just cwd that's detrimental to our animals and land from baiting. The introduction of non native grasses and seeds in non traditional areas could have huge environmental impacts.

Here's my assumption, in a thread full of them. There's a lot more guys on AO, already baiting and hunting over it, than I originally thought.....

I can't imagine anyone thinking that a field of anything would be even close to the equivalent to a bait pile. I guess that means we agree on that point.

I've never heard of any law, rule, or government policy that says that grain spills have to be cleaned up. Nor has anyone I know ever received any sort of warning, fine or directive in relation to spilled rain.

Granted, I only have a few relives who farm, including two brothers, and four BIL, not to mention at least a dozen close friends and a couple of former employers. And when I called them they said they had never heard of such a thing. But maybe they all just got lucky.
However, a google search found nothing about any government law, policy, or directive concerning spilled grain.

How do you figure bait piles would introduce non native grasses and seeds?
Assuming that local feed supplies are utilized as would almost certainly be the case, where would these grasses and seeds come from?

If feed were to be imported, it would have to go through the same stringent inspections that ALL agricultural products HAVE to go through.

I'm curious, where did you come up with these ideas? Could you link us to a source for you information? I would like to see it or them.

With nearly sixty years of life on and around farms I have never heard of anything like this, except from people who had no idea what they were talking about.
I'm not saying that you don't, but I have grave doubts about your sources.

[KegRiver]

It is interesting that the most vocal opponent to baiting just happens to be one of the few here who has hunted over bait and suggests he would do so again. Not sure what that says about his opposition to baiting.

Maybe he knows something we don't.
I'm thinking he may be on to something.

See I have always assumed that this debate was all about individual hunters putting out bait for their own purposes and I just don't see that being a problem with relation to CWD.

But there is something I hadn't considered. Outfitters.

I could see most outfitters who specialize in Deer, employing baiting, and that would be a whole different kettle of fish.

They would almost certainly put out much more substantial baits, and maintain them for much longer then a private individual.

I'm going to have to study this angle more closely.

Originally Posted by KegRiver

It is interesting that the most vocal opponent to baiting just happens to be one of the few here who has hunted over bait and suggests he would do so again. Not sure what that says about his opposition to baiting.

Maybe he knows something we don't.
I'm thinking he may be on to something.

See I have always assumed that this debate was all about individual hunters putting out bait for their own purposes and I just don't see that being a problem with relation to CWD.

But there is something I hadn't considered. Outfitters.

I could see most outfitters who specialize in Deer, employing baiting, and that would be a whole different kettle of fish.

They would almost certainly put out much more substantial baits, and maintain them for much longer then a private individual.

I'm going to have to study this angle more closely.

LOL...not on anything keg....just being honest While you are putting words in mouth, perhaps make an attempt to get them right though I never suggested I would do it again....I said I didn't know if I would do it again. I guess your words fit your needs better though.

Surprised you never considered the outfiter angle considering how knowledgeable you appear to be on this subject....but you are right, they would put out an incredible amount of bait.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

The difference between a field and a bait pile, is. One the leaves or seeds are eaten off the stem/stock there is no reason for a deer to revisit that said stem. Keeps them moving.

I thought grain spills and faulty storage bins were supposed to be cleaned up and maintained, with fines levied against those that fail to do so. There shouldn't be any excuses.

And it isn't just cwd that's detrimental to our animals and land from baiting. The introduction of non native grasses and seeds in non traditional areas could have huge environmental impacts.

Here's my assumption, in a thread full of them. There's a lot more guys on AO, already baiting and hunting over it, than I originally thought.....

Hey Potty
You have to be talking winter here , cause for months on end May-OCT some of these fields these deer feed in like an alfalfa field which is a very good source for deer would grow a new stem or new leaves in a matter of days..... Probably being even more attractive to a deer to eat this new growth then the old woody stalk.......
Just trying to understand your statement, that a deer nibbles a plant down to the stalk and has no reason to return...Could be true in the winter months but not in MAY - OCT. Not sure on your statement re Farmers being levied fines for grain piles not cleaned up or maintained , but that doesn't mean this statement isn't true just never heard of it.....

The difference between a field and a bait pile, is. One the leaves or seeds are eaten off the stem/stock there is no reason for a deer to revisit that said stem. Keeps them moving.[/

[petew]

If anyone doesn't think baiting is wide spread in Alberta, take your head out of the sand.
Visit any hunting store and see just how much stock of bait is on display.
Yea, sure it is for photography...LOL , so we are suposed to believe you bait for pictures, then hunt elsewhere??
Funny the camera stores don't sell bait.
I don't bait, and will not hunt over it.
Pete