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  #31  
Old 09-04-2014, 07:52 AM
jeprli jeprli is offline
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Someone could turn this problem into $$$$, don't know if anyone on board raises pigs, they love to eat these carp. Chickens, turkeys, ducks will also eat them, just chop em in half.
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  #32  
Old 09-04-2014, 08:56 AM
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I am wondering if pelicans and cormorants can transfer these fish from one water body to another. Perhaps takes on a fish it cant manage and it gets loose in the next slough or stream the bird flies to?
We have never had cormorants or pelicans here but now they are a regular daily visitor. I am thinking the carp are the attraction.
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  #33  
Old 09-04-2014, 09:15 AM
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I am wondering if pelicans and cormorants can transfer these fish from one water body to another. Perhaps takes on a fish it cant manage and it gets loose in the next slough or stream the bird flies to?
We have never had cormorants or pelicans here but now they are a regular daily visitor. I am thinking the carp are the attraction.
this is the point, but watch out: there are some members on the board (and even in this topic) who will point at you and lough and even tell you that you are the part of this problem.....happened to me once
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  #34  
Old 09-04-2014, 09:23 AM
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I am wondering if pelicans and cormorants can transfer these fish from one water body to another. Perhaps takes on a fish it cant manage and it gets loose in the next slough or stream the bird flies to?
We have never had cormorants or pelicans here but now they are a regular daily visitor. I am thinking the carp are the attraction.
No.

It is an old wives tale that birds move fish around Alberta. Carrying a fish or eggs stuck to feathers or feet. Someone swore a ducks could carry them. I guess they never watched a duck take off.

It has been raised as a process for Perch moving around.

It is not true. It does not happen. If it did happen...then every fish would be found in every body of water after millions of years of birds flying around.

Carp are now moving around via water ways and buckets. If people thought perch were bad...carp will be way worse. Perch at least do not destroy the habitat. Carp cause increased sedimentation and stream and lake erosion.

Cheers

SDF
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  #35  
Old 09-04-2014, 09:30 AM
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that is easier to find victims among the people than admit the facts
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  #36  
Old 09-04-2014, 09:50 AM
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that is easier to find victims among the people than admit the facts
exactly.

facts are people move fish when they should not. Blaming birds when it is proven not to happen just points to apathy amongst some to not be more vigilant and protect our precious natural resource called sport fish.

I worked on a perch distribution study. Lakes side by side out in the woods. One had perch. One did not. Prime example. Both very similar. One had an intermittant connection to the Athabasca River. One did not. They were super close to one another. After millions of years...perch never moved over thanks to birds. Tons of ducks, pelicans, merganzers, loons, cormorants on the lake. Never happened. Just one small example out of every other similar lake in Alberta. Birds don't move these fish. People do.

Thanks

SDF
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  #37  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:03 AM
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No.

It is an old wives tale that birds move fish around Alberta. Carrying a fish or eggs stuck to feathers or feet. Someone swore a ducks could carry them. I guess they never watched a duck take off.

It has been raised as a process for Perch moving around.

It is not true. It does not happen. If it did happen...then every fish would be found in every body of water after millions of years of birds flying around.

Carp are now moving around via water ways and buckets. If people thought perch were bad...carp will be way worse. Perch at least do not destroy the habitat. Carp cause increased sedimentation and stream and lake erosion.

Cheers

SDF
I have a dugout that some years has minnows. It is not very big and not deep and definitely freezes solid in the winter. I always wondered why some years it has minnows and how they got there. In the spring you can see the whole thing and can see into the water and there is never any minnows, but some years in the fall there is a few minnows. Is there another explanation besides them being brought there by birds?
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  #38  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:12 AM
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Default that is why I asked

We have landlocked dugouts and sloughs that until the high water flooding this past spring were not connected to any other water body but hunting ducks I have seen small fish jump (minnows). How else would they get there if not birds?? Some times these sloughs are dry but in a year or two we see minnows again just like dmcbride says.
I am sure there are people moving fish to water bodies it just seems they are too prevalent in small water bodies without access to general public to blame people for them all.
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  #39  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:15 AM
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exactly.

facts are people move fish when they should not. Blaming birds when it is proven not to happen just points to apathy amongst some to not be more vigilant and protect our precious natural resource called sport fish.

I worked on a perch distribution study. Lakes side by side out in the woods. One had perch. One did not. Prime example. Both very similar. One had an intermittant connection to the Athabasca River. One did not. They were super close to one another. After millions of years...perch never moved over thanks to birds. Tons of ducks, pelicans, merganzers, loons, cormorants on the lake. Never happened. Just one small example out of every other similar lake in Alberta. Birds don't move these fish. People do.

Thanks

SDF
I would not sat birds do not move fish but the bodies of water need to be close together and the amount moved by birds is very small. It would take a long time for any species to establish it self this way.

The carp I would say is people, flooding and water ways that have caused this not birds
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  #40  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:17 AM
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I have a dugout that some years has minnows. It is not very big and not deep and definitely freezes solid in the winter. I always wondered why some years it has minnows and how they got there. In the spring you can see the whole thing and can see into the water and there is never any minnows, but some years in the fall there is a few minnows. Is there another explanation besides them being brought there by birds?
It would need an assessment to see if a natural connection to water is present. If they are brook sticklebacks or fathead minnows their population can move up and down. They could be there just scarce and you think they are not.

Part of our study include brook stickleback and fathead minnows. They same applied in terms of final research. They don't materialize in nature in the absense of people.

If you have had a flood, or if there are cobbles subsurface connecting the pond to a creek or lake. If there is a spring...all could have some natural influx via water to the pond.

Otherwise a bucket did it in the past.
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  #41  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:23 AM
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We have landlocked dugouts and sloughs that until the high water flooding this past spring were not connected to any other water body but hunting ducks I have seen small fish jump (minnows). How else would they get there if not birds?? Some times these sloughs are dry but in a year or two we see minnows again just like dmcbride says.
I am sure there are people moving fish to water bodies it just seems they are too prevalent in small water bodies without access to general public to blame people for them all.
Again. The study I worked on was comprehensive. Fish do not travel by bird. Otherwise every body of water would have the same species. We are talking millions of years of opportunity in some cases. Tens of thousands of years in others depending upon glaciation impacts.

It takes just one bucket, one flood, subsurface substrate connection, brief intermittent connection and you have minnows. Once established their population can rise and fall and look like they are gone yet a few survive and their populations rebound.

The science and the facts show that it does not happen. People and buckets or streams and creeks move fish. Not birds.

Past floods were the most likely culprit versus buckets since it was on your own land. For minnows to migrate you need very little water flow. Sometimes even drainage ditches end up being connections.
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  #42  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:29 AM
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what was the subject of the "study"? To prove that bird can OR cannot transfer fish eggs?
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  #43  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:42 AM
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If its impossible for birds to transfer minnow can someone please explain how there was hundreds of freshwater shrimp on the fourth floor of my scaffolding where three Canada geese were lol ... no wives tale here I put some in a water bottle and they swam around all day ...oh and there was no lake near
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  #44  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:46 AM
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what was the subject of the "study"? To prove that bird can OR cannot transfer fish eggs?
The study was on the geographical distribution of fish species in the Athabasca drainage system where there is permenant or intermittent stream access to the Athabasca versus no access.

If you hypothesis that birds can move eggs...then where there is no access or connection to fish bearing water you should see some fish present. That was not the case. You needed water connections to have fish.

I know in your mind you feel strongly that it happens...but it does not. Now there are reports of water spouts sucking up fish and dumping them. They don't last long for long distance transport.

Also fish and eggs need water to breath. Assuming a hard flapping bird someone manages to keep an egg tucked nice and safe under a wing...and then flies a distance...keeping the egg breathing...and then gently lands and drops the egg and goes back for another...ensuring they both aren't male eggs...and they survive in the water...the babies don't get eaten and they meet up and fall in love and have babies... then...what this becomes is a nice Disney Fiction movie.
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  #45  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:58 AM
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If its impossible for birds to transfer minnow can someone please explain how there was hundreds of freshwater shrimp on the fourth floor of my scaffolding where three Canada geese were lol ... no wives tale here I put some in a water bottle and they swam around all day ...oh and there was no lake near
There is a difference between fish and arthrpods/Crustacea. The latter's eggs (of some species) can survive for years without water. Fish eggs, literally seconds to minutes.

Further, some arthrpod eggs may be able to pass through the digestive tract of birds without being destroyed. More likely though, the scuds grabbed hold (fish don't have the ability to grab) of a foot or burrowed in feathers, and hitched a ride.
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  #46  
Old 09-04-2014, 11:12 AM
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If its impossible for birds to transfer minnow can someone please explain how there was hundreds of freshwater shrimp on the fourth floor of my scaffolding where three Canada geese were lol ... no wives tale here I put some in a water bottle and they swam around all day ...oh and there was no lake near
Good question.



Scuds are not fish. They can hold on with their appendages and breath for a longer period of time.



Gammaras are interesting. They were found in lakes without fish so their transport movement is different than fish.
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  #47  
Old 09-04-2014, 11:17 AM
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Birds can absolutely disperse fish across water bodies.

Note that invoking, "After millions of years...", is scientifically impossible and inaccurate. Why is that?

There is no doubt about the origin of these fish. Blame a private land owner.
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  #48  
Old 09-04-2014, 11:18 AM
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Really simple and educational example. While you are all chasing birds (I respect you all ), this is for the masses and the most logical progression. Prussian carp minnows flush out of Dewitts pond in to the Nose creek drainage. They go in to the Bow river drainage. They are distributed through irrigation in to reservoirs in Southern Alberta from the upstream side. Many of these reservoirs have drainages which flow in to other river systems. 1 Example. Travers reservoir spills in to the Oldman through the south side. The carp are now in the Bow river system right up to Bearspaw and Glenmore; and all the way in to the oldman without using the traditional riverways, right from Dewitts pond. That includes any and every pond,lake or dugout which is tied to an irrigation system . I hope there is no connection via aquifer from the Bow/Oldman system which drains in to the Milk river system or these guys can be all the way from the furthest point on the North sask river below a reservoir-up all the seasonal creeks in that system to your favorite central alberta lake,throughout Saskatchewan through natural and irrigation to the Hudsons Bay, tie ins to the South and East right in to the Mississippi drainage-from the top down. That is one of the reasons why fisheries managers stock fish which do not have the capability of reproducing naturally. Unfortunately that is what is happening now, and I wish it was not true. It is important that everybody educate themselves on how these fish move. Anytime a barrier to fish movement is washed out on a tributary which contains these fish, there is the real possibility that they may venture upstream too. Then when the barrier is replaced-it is too late. These fish have gone from the W.I.D. irrigation dewatering system through the Serviceberry creek drainage below Chestermere lake in 2008, through to the Red Deer river and all over Southern Alberta in 6 years. Just like that. What a mess.
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  #49  
Old 09-04-2014, 11:22 AM
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Really simple and educational example. Prussian carp minnows flush out of Dewitts pond in to the Nose creek drainage. They go in to the Bow river drainage. They are distributed through irrigation in to reservoirs in Southern Alberta from the upstream side. Many of these reservoirs have drainages which flow in to other river systems. 1 Example. Travers reservoir spills in to the Oldman through the south side. The carp are now in the Bow river system right up to Bearspaw and Glenmore; and all the way into the oldman without using the traditional riverways, right from Dewitts pond. That includes any and every pond,lake or dugout which is tied to an irrigation system . I hope there is no connection via aquifer from the Bow/Oldman system which drains in to the Milk river system or these guys can be all the way from the furthest point on the North sask river below a reservoir-up all the seasonal creeks in that system to your favorite centeral alberta lake,throughout Saskatchewan through natural and irrigation to the Hudsons Bay, tie ins to the South and East right in to the Mississippi drainage-from the top down. That is one of the reasons why fisheries managers stock fish which do not have the capability of reproducing naturally. Unfortunately that is what is happening now, and I wish it was not true. It is important that everybody educate themselves on how these fish move. Anytime a barrier to fish movement is washed out on a tributary which contains these fish, there is the real possibility that they may venture upstream too. Then when the barrier is replaced-it is too late. These fish have gone from the W.I.D. irrigation dewatering system through the Serviceberry creek drainage below Chestermere lake in 2008, through to the Red Deer river and all over Southern Alberta in 6 years. Just like that. What a mess.
Absolutely!

And not one bucket was required beyond the initial introduction.

From the mouth of the mississippi to Hudsons Bay because a private land owners pond flooded.

This is not much different than the issue of bighead and silver carp introductions down south.
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  #50  
Old 09-04-2014, 11:58 AM
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It is unlikely that they are going upstream over a dam enabling their spread further,unless the dam has/had been breached, or in the case of irrigation projects with spillways-the opening of gateways back to the original river level once the elevation required to divert water has been satisfied. The Wier in East calgary was such-and would have protected us upstream during the Summer only. Water went over an impassible spillway during irrigation diversion. I do not think that Dewitts pond and the dam at Blood indian res. collapsed, but I think it would have been well publicised on this site. There was a collapse at Berry creek or Carolside (sorry, last year) perhaps someone knows which one- close to Blood indian res. It would only stop the spread upstream if impassible dams were in place, but the spread downstream is almost impossible to control. I did see some pelicans in the Lake above the little seasonal feeder creek coming out the reservoir where I observed the carp. It would have been very difficult for the pelicans to feed there due to cover(willow/saskatoon/etc.,and close quarters) , the lack of adequate takeoff space and the likelyhood of being eaten by a predator as Pelicans are not exactly Good at landing in the bush. The Greater Blue I observed there was wading and eating more manageable fare and may have been able to spear and eat the occasional minnow carp- but likely if it could have dealt with the size-would have either eaten or dropped it on the spot. Most Birds would not likely have been fishing that close to the outflow due to the clutter and/or exposure to hazards related to lack of visibility and the inability to view approaching predators. Fish being deposited by birds, unbelievably low probability unless the impassible fishway is merely a riffle, so to speak. I am more likely to believe the most obvious and simplest route to be the most likely.
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  #51  
Old 09-04-2014, 01:41 PM
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Prussian carp has been present in Strathmore area since mid 90's if not earlier, wid office in Strathmore knew about this invasion since beginning, they could have stopped it long time ago. Farmers knew as well yet no one did anything. Two major floods did the rest.

Sundance get a break, I have yet to See these bucket brigades you talk about. For that matter go after CPR and illegal introduction of rainbows/browns into bow river and it's entire drainage. In case you were busy studying perch in a man built puddle, your native cutthroat is getting pushed out of its domain by "sportfish".
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  #52  
Old 09-04-2014, 01:43 PM
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Lake Winnipeg is in for a devastating blow to their fishery once these guys make it downstream. I would think in less than 5 years they will be established there.
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  #53  
Old 09-04-2014, 01:52 PM
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Prussian carp has been present in Strathmore area since mid 90's if not earlier, wid office in Strathmore knew about this invasion since beginning, they could have stopped it long time ago. Farmers knew as well yet no one did anything. Two major floods did the rest.

Sundance get a break, I have yet to See these bucket brigades you talk about. For that matter go after CPR and illegal introduction of rainbows/browns into bow river and it's entire drainage. In case you were busy studying perch in a man built puddle, your native cutthroat is getting pushed out of its domain by "sportfish".
Well they just hit another lake. Crimson Lake now has perch in it. Just recently there has been an illegal perch introduction. There was never perch in the lake. Thousands of years of birds coming and going and no perch.

The evidence is clear. The studies show distribution patterns follow water...not birds.

You can bring all your wives tales and supersticious guesses and conspiracy theories to the table...but in the end you are just putting a proposterous unrealistic and implausible idea onto the table to what...make you have more faith in people?

Sadly I heard the other day that some bozos have now put perch into Lake Chaparral in south Calgary. When you put an easy accessible fish near water without them you make idiots do stupid things I suppose.

These guys need to be arrested. They need to lose their homes to pay for the damage. They need to go to jail.
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  #54  
Old 09-04-2014, 01:57 PM
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Do they jump like the Asian carp do in the states when a boat goes by? Might be a business opportunity to be had.

I can see it now dmcbrides bow fishing.
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  #55  
Old 09-04-2014, 02:05 PM
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Crimson lake is the new AO fishing hot spot for perch!

Serious question though..

What is the big deal about prussian Carp. They are omnivorous and feed on plankton, invertebrates, plant material and detritus.

Sure they will eat other fish, however most fish will consume other fish.

What about them makes it such a bad species to have in our lakes and rivers?

Factual data please. Not because SRD or the Gov't says they are bad.

Thank you!
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:24 PM
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Crimson lake is the new AO fishing hot spot for perch!

Serious question though..

What is the big deal about prussian Carp. They are omnivorous and feed on plankton, invertebrates, plant material and detritus.

Sure they will eat other fish, however most fish will consume other fish.

What about them makes it such a bad species to have in our lakes and rivers?

Factual data please. Not because SRD or the Gov't says they are bad.

Thank you!
A quick google search will provide you with lots of literature.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:35 PM
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A quick google search will provide you with lots of literature.
right...

So they can destroy or destabilize the eco system... How exactly do they do this and how has this been proven? What research has been done to prove this?

I am not pro carp. I am just curious about why they are "so bad". Would they not make a tasty meal for predatory fish like walleye and pike? More food supply would increase the walleye and pike populations causing them to grow.

Nature has a way of balancing its self out.

All I read about is "Carp are bad", "Carp must be destroyed", "Carp are the devil", well.. not exactly the devil but you get the idea.

Are these old wives tales or are these scientifically founded claims.

I am looking for proof.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:51 PM
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Well they just hit another lake. Crimson Lake now has perch in it. Just recently there has been an illegal perch introduction. There was never perch in the lake. Thousands of years of birds coming and going and no perch.

The evidence is clear. The studies show distribution patterns follow water...not birds.

You can bring all your wives tales and supersticious guesses and conspiracy theories to the table...but in the end you are just putting a proposterous unrealistic and implausible idea onto the table to what...make you have more faith in people?

Sadly I heard the other day that some bozos have now put perch into Lake Chaparral in south Calgary. When you put an easy accessible fish near water without them you make idiots do stupid things I suppose.

These guys need to be arrested. They need to lose their homes to pay for the damage. They need to go to jail.
There never was anything in Crimson (other than leeches) so perch would be an improvement. I am not going to buy into the idea that every single trout lake that now has perch in it was a deliberate stocking by humans. Some are pretty remote. Sorry. Just not plausible.
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:03 PM
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right...

So they can destroy or destabilize the eco system... How exactly do they do this and how has this been proven? What research has been done to prove this?

I am not pro carp. I am just curious about why they are "so bad". Would they not make a tasty meal for predatory fish like walleye and pike? More food supply would increase the walleye and pike populations causing them to grow.

Nature has a way of balancing its self out.

All I read about is "Carp are bad", "Carp must be destroyed", "Carp are the devil", well.. not exactly the devil but you get the idea.

Are these old wives tales or are these scientifically founded claims.

I am looking for proof.
Lots of literature out there....

Something to keep in mind is that attitudes towards various introduced species are heavily biased by culture.

Some people consider carp premier gamefish, whereas others consider them trash.

Some people are disgusted to find brown trout in our headwaters, while others view them as magical unicorns that will die if their picture is taken.

The sad truth is that all of these things are just evidence of the impact we have had on our aquatic ecosystems.
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeGuy View Post
Lots of literature out there....

Something to keep in mind is that attitudes towards various introduced species are heavily biased by culture.

Some people consider carp premier gamefish, whereas others consider them trash.

Some people are disgusted to find brown trout in our headwaters, while others view them as magical unicorns that will die if their picture is taken.

The sad truth is that all of these things are just evidence of the impact we have had on our aquatic ecosystems.
I searched through a few pages of google of people professing their lack of love for the carp.

You make valid points. However there is no concrete evidence as to how they destroy or destabalize the eco system..


I did find a few good carp recipies though... LOL
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