Furnace failed

[thefloormat]

Looking for anyone in the industry for some information.

I have dual furnaces, the basement furnace just got diagnosed with a cracked heat exchanger, and the motor seized in the upstairs furnace all at the same time. Luckily i could pull the motor and swap to heat the upstairs, and downstairs is maintaining about 17 with just a space heater, so I'm not in immediate need of a decision. furnaces are over 14 years old.

I had first call heating out yesterday, they're the ones who initially diagnosed the problem and swapped the motor for me while I was out of time. He gave me a quote on a new furnace using zones, and hot water tank because mine is an old style and should be replaced anyways while were in there if not for venting reasons alone.

the price for this came to around $14,500. at first glance i nearly **** my pants. Ill break this down for you and I'm hoping someone can tell me wether this is ballpark or extreme. This isnt an area of expertise for me and so im heavily relying on others to make my decision here. Its a tough situation to be in.

Furnace is a Lennox SLP98V $6760 less $700 in rebates

Hot water tank is a 50 gallon Power direct vent High output $2695, but i could always go down on that and get the non high output PDV at $1999

running new 6 wire to both thermostats $250

fresh air line $275

Fresh Air Hoyme Damper $395

AC coils in case I want AC in the future after I do renos $700

Zone system--$3190

gas permit $79.50

merv 11 filter $295, then $58 for replacements

annual fee of $104.95 for maintenance to keep the 10 year warranty or else it drops to 1 yr warranty.


the home now is about 1100sq ft up and 1100 down, but I will be putting a 900sq ft addition on in the next year or two and so I dont want to have to buy a new furnace at that time, which is why we went with this 90,000btu unit with so many stages to adjust to the current smaller house. This is how it was explained to me anyways.

Any input would be much appreciated on this, I have only been able to get this on quote so far and am hoping to hear back from a couple others on monday.

[thefloormat]

Of course, anyone who has replaced a furnace or hot water tank who can give their opinion or has something to say, I'm all ears

[Weedy1]

How did they diagnose the basement furnace as having a cracked heat exchanger? Did you see what they did, pictures of the crack?

I'd see if you can get someone to replace the heat exchanger if it's actually pooched.

[artie]

I put in a new high efficiency furnace in 2005. A couple of weeks ago the neighbor came over complaining about the gas smell in my yard. I knew something was up as I had also smelled gas in the yard. Then the inside of the house stared smelling of partially burned gas and the furnace quit. The repair guy quickly diagnosed the heat exchanger was gone plus a gas control valve in the furnace was gone. He also said they have lots of problems with the early high efficiency furnaces. Best to buy a new furnace which I did. Not happy that I only got 12 years out of the first carrier high efficiency furnace. Now I am hearing lots of stories of installers, gas inspectors all saying if you have an old style furnace keep it as the new ones have lots of problems. Problem is in Alberta you cannot buy an old style furnace. You could give Caber a call and see how a new boiler system would compare in price. A friend put a boiler system in his house and really likes it. You have a small boiler which heats water which feeds both the hot water tank and a steam operated furnace with a heat exchanger. Don't play around with heat exchangers as my health really suffered from this faulty system.

[Sundancefisher]

Call Greg Patton. Patton Heating and Sheet Metal.

403-279-3955

He put our furnaces in. Did s great job. Had no problems. And he is an avid fly fisherman.

[CaberTosser]

The furnace seems a bit pricey and the zoning system would be entirely optional as that's a distribution system upgrade rather than simply restoring your heat, or is that for two furnaces?. I question their inclusion of a Hoyme damper if the new appliances are to be direct vent as that would make it entirely unnecessary, perhaps they propose a power vented water heater without its own dedicated air intake?

A heat exchanger can often be replaced, I had to swap one at my Dad's house and that one was supplied under warranty by Carrier; his was more plugged than cracked, a plastic liner in it had delaminated and it ws also curiously full of soot (explanation for this was the defective gas control valve) The odd thing with his place is that I subsequently found that his gas control valve was not shutting entirely and as a result there was a small flame remaining even when the unit was supposed to have shut off; somewhat ironic that it happened to a retired gasfitter.

[artie]

What they told me about the warranty whether true or not is that the warranty does not cover labor. I can do a lot but when it comes to gas in the house I call an expert. They also told me they were going to try and get be a rebate from carrier which remains to be seen.
On a side note my friends furnace went out and he called a service tech. Turned out to be dead batteries in the digital thermostat. You never had to worry about batteries in the old style thermostats.
Looks like the poster needs to shop around a bit and get a few quotes.

[ChrisGrohms]

Did you get a price on replacing the heat exchanger? You could save yourself 12grand which would take a long time to pay off with a new high eff. furnace and you still maintain 2 different heat sources which like you mentioned comes in handy when, not if, they break down.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by ChrisGrohms

Did you get a price on replacing the heat exchanger? You could save yourself 12grand which would take a long time to pay off with a new high eff. furnace and you still maintain 2 different heat sources which like you mentioned comes in handy when, not if, they break down.

It's likely welded into the cabinet- non serviceable.

I would go to Wolesely, buy them and self install with a home-owners permit. Make friends with someone who has done it.

[normstad]

Originally Posted by thefloormat

Looking for anyone in the industry for some information.

I have dual furnaces, the basement furnace just got diagnosed with a cracked heat exchanger, and the motor seized in the upstairs furnace all at the same time. Luckily i could pull the motor and swap to heat the upstairs, and downstairs is maintaining about 17 with just a space heater, so I'm not in immediate need of a decision. furnaces are over 14 years old.

I had first call heating out yesterday, they're the ones who initially diagnosed the problem and swapped the motor for me while I was out of time. He gave me a quote on a new furnace using zones, and hot water tank because mine is an old style and should be replaced anyways while were in there if not for venting reasons alone.

the price for this came to around $14,500. at first glance i nearly **** my pants. Ill break this down for you and I'm hoping someone can tell me wether this is ballpark or extreme. This isnt an area of expertise for me and so im heavily relying on others to make my decision here. Its a tough situation to be in.

Furnace is a Lennox SLP98V $6760 less $700 in rebates

Hot water tank is a 50 gallon Power direct vent High output $2695, but i could always go down on that and get the non high output PDV at $1999

running new 6 wire to both thermostats $250

fresh air line $275

Fresh Air Hoyme Damper $395

AC coils in case I want AC in the future after I do renos $700

Zone system--$3190

gas permit $79.50

merv 11 filter $295, then $58 for replacements

annual fee of $104.95 for maintenance to keep the 10 year warranty or else it drops to 1 yr warranty.


the home now is about 1100sq ft up and 1100 down, but I will be putting a 900sq ft addition on in the next year or two and so I dont want to have to buy a new furnace at that time, which is why we went with this 90,000btu unit with so many stages to adjust to the current smaller house. This is how it was explained to me anyways.

Any input would be much appreciated on this, I have only been able to get this on quote so far and am hoping to hear back from a couple others on monday.

I know nothing about the technical aspects, but I know a lot about buying frugally.

Buy your furnace in the US. Have it shipped to the Montana Shipping just south of Sweetgrass/Coutts border.

It needs to have a UL sticker compatible for Canada or a CSA one (which it probably won't have). The UL stickers need to include a Canadian certification, and you have to ask about that. It'll look something like this:



Lennox doesn't sell online, but there are plenty of other quality manufacturers that do or at Home Depot or similar stores.

Here is one. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kelvinat...-35C/206246590

I think that is similar to the Lennox. Get CaberTosser to install it for you if you are near Calgary and you will save thousands.

EDIT: Just saw you were in Edmonton. CaberTosser probably won't be able to install, but it is still worth your trip to Montana.

[CaberTosser]

Ken, heat exchangers are not welded to the cabinet nor do large cities such as Edmonton or Calgary issue gas or HVAC permits to non-licensed individuals. I currently hold an Edmonton business license for a commercial boiler room I've been refitting there so I'm also up on their permitting process as well as Calgary's (Edmonton's permitting is the better of the two, ironically they have a bit less bureaucracy and lower fees)

As a notation to some, while I do thank them for their references I'd like to note that I am a licensed plumber and gasfitter but not a tinsmith nor an HVAC mechanic. I have installed furnaces in the MD of Rockyview where I can pull such permits but the City of Calgary requires me to have a licensed tinsmith or HVAC mechanic attached to my business license in order to pull HVAC permits. I also prefer to supply any equipment that I install (Hey, I have to eat too!).

[dewalt18]

Excellent choice on the furnace, the slp98 is imho the nicest furnace on the market, hands down. However, they're pricing is extreme and then some. Sight unseen I'd wager you could be able to get this all done for $9000 or less. Also, as caber mentioned, a hoyme damper has no place in an install like that, because if you're spending that kind of money to upgrade to a power vent hwt it should have its own piped frash air, as should the furnace.

I'd recommend getting at least two more quotes, but make sure the quotes are all for similar products and services

[Arty]

"A gas permit is required when installing, altering or relocating natural gas equipment."
-
For Homeowners

New home gas work must be completed by a licensed mechanical contractor. Homeowners of single family homes can only obtain gas permits for renovations and re-tests of an existing gas system.

Homeowners who apply for their own gas permits must own and occupy the property and be completing the work themselves.

Homeowner must apply for permits in person (address listed below)
Complete the Single Family Homeowners Plumbing and Gas Application
Include a detailed drawing with piping layout including fitting descriptions and sizing
After the work has been completed you can book an inspection by calling 311.
--
https://www.edmonton.ca/programs_ser...s-permits.aspx

Assuming the whole idea is to avoid massive explosions due to installation or design screw-ups, and nothing else.

Seems to me that replacement in kind, as always, does not need a licensed engineer. Or need a tradesman certified for conventional, original installations. The configuration of the original installation would serve as a guide and design plan (although that's a bad way to do it from a documentation perspective), and the inspection would confirm that the actual work is not dangerously defective.

So what does a compatible little heat exchanger, a single-phase fractional hp indoor motor, and couple of replacement residential low-pressure gas regulation valves cost? Dollars to doughnuts it won't be 14 grand.

[thefloormat]

Originally Posted by dewalt18

Excellent choice on the furnace, the slp98 is imho the nicest furnace on the market, hands down. However, they're pricing is extreme and then some. Sight unseen I'd wager you could be able to get this all done for $9000 or less. Also, as caber mentioned, a hoyme damper has no place in an install like that, because if you're spending that kind of money to upgrade to a power vent hwt it should have its own piped frash air, as should the furnace.

I'd recommend getting at least two more quotes, but make sure the quotes are all for similar products and services

Thanks for the info, I researched the furnace and it sounds like it's the creme de la creme of furnaces. I have 3 more quotes coming today for furnaces, two are lennox and one is not, and one guy going to come on monday to talk boilers who did the boilers and in floor heating system in my uncles 26000ft shop recently

Once I get all these numbers I'll know where I'm at. Glad to hear I'm not crazy that this seems a bit high, I much prefer the $9000 number

Thanks for everyone's input, I'll update when I've got more.

[dewalt18]

Originally Posted by thefloormat

Thanks for the info, I researched the furnace and it sounds like it's the creme de la creme of furnaces. I have 3 more quotes coming today for furnaces, two are lennox and one is not, and one guy going to come on monday to talk boilers who did the boilers and in floor heating system in my uncles 26000ft shop recently

Once I get all these numbers I'll know where I'm at. Glad to hear I'm not crazy that this seems a bit high, I much prefer the $9000 number

Thanks for everyone's input, I'll update when I've got more.

Feel free to pm if you have any questions once you get your additional quotes. Been 4 years since I was a Lennox dealer, but they still get my nod compared to anything else out there right now.

[tacomama]

Originally Posted by dewalt18

Feel free to pm if you have any questions once you get your additional quotes. Been 4 years since I was a Lennox dealer, but they still get my nod compared to anything else out there right now.

My house still has the original Lennox furnace from when it was built, in 1976 and the furnace is still going strong!
If and when the time comes to replace it, I would be leaning towards another Lennox just based on what I have now.

[ren008]

Originally Posted by tacomama

My house still has the original Lennox furnace from when it was built, in 1976 and the furnace is still going strong!
If and when the time comes to replace it, I would be leaning towards another Lennox just based on what I have now.

Mine too. 1976 build and a Lennox that is still running tip top, have it inspected every couple years and I think the only real expense I have into it is belts at this point. Have been warned by several furnace guys to keep it running as long as possible as when it does come time to replace it I will never be able to get another furnace that will last even half as long.

High complexity/electronics and planned obsolescence is a great thing isn't it?

[thefloormat]

So reliant came in and gave me an estimate for the next step down in Lennox, said he’d charge $800 more for the fancier furnace. So that puts reliant at $11,200 for the 65 stage furnace, plus I’d get $1000 back in a Costco cash card. Then he’d do a 50 gallon PDV hot water tank for $2000.

Academy mechanical gave me their quote today for the same 65 stage furnace for $12,759. But for a 50 gallon PDV hot water tank their the highest at $2800

If I don’t do the hot water tank then we have to run a smaller sleeve in the chimney as it will be too big. Not that it’s a big expense to do that, but my hot water tank is 1996, so it’s on borrowed time and only a matter of time at this point until it fails next. May as well run water, gas, and electric at the same tile rather than come back later to do it all.

At the moment I’m leaning towards reliant but I’m going to request the better Lennox over the 2 stage he recommended as I think it’s worth the $800. They’re the best price when I take the Costco card into account.

I had thought about putting in AC coil now, but later I plan on renovating this house and think the entire ducting system will change, so is it worth it to do that now for $700 or just wait until later and when they redo ducting, then can put the coils in at that time?

[dewalt18]

For $700 for a simple coil install I'd let you pay me to drive up from calgary! Lol

[thefloormat]

Originally Posted by dewalt18

For $700 for a simple coil install I'd let you pay me to drive up from calgary! Lol

Really eh, what’s the coil worth to put in do you think?

[Rig-Rat]

I don't have any furnace info but I just had to replace my 50 Gal hot water tank a couple months ago. It's was a high eff power vented and for them to come in remove old take install new one, plus re-pipe vent to get up to code all in was just over $1800.
It's 50 Gal Reheem System and seems like a decent tank.

[dewalt18]

Originally Posted by thefloormat

Really eh, what’s the coil worth to put in do you think?

Honestly they aren't far off the mark really. I'd charge that or a bit less to supply and cut in a cased coil. Could probably be better priced since they're there and have to do the duct mod anyways to adapt to the new furnace

[thefloormat]

Thanks for the info, I'm gonna see if I cant get these guys to cut a few bucks here and there and see what I come up with.