Long range unethical?

[troutLakeJohnnie]

Howdy folks! I watched a YouTube video of some guy shooting a moose. He claims the range was 1100 yards. I called BS and was stomped on. I did some research on laser rangefinders and their limitations and the atrocious ballistics of even the best bullets pushed to unattainable velocities. Still, many respondents claimed I was "jealous" I couldn't/wouldn't take the shot.

So....what are your thoughts? BS or what?

[catnthehat]

Animals get shot , killed, missed and wounded every year at ranges fro 15 to 1,500 yards, from moose to deer.
it is not BS even though you think it may be after looking at ballisitcs charts.
This topic also gets beat to death at regular intervals on here and every other forum except for maybe Snipershide, Long range shooting and Hunting and other dedicated long range forums.
Cat

[MattSako]

You need a good caliber with enough energy to drop a moose that far..

[.257Weatherby]

Originally Posted by MattSako

You need a good caliber with enough energy to drop a moose that far..

Is a .50 BMG heavy enough.
There is an anti GB Hunt video floating around FB btw what is face book ??
Claims to be 1/4 mile away and the Boar took 3 shots and a fourth after the GB ran another 100yrds and eventually tumbled down a mountain for another 500 yrds...
Why do we beat ourselves over this shyte?
Rob

[troutLakeJohnnie]

Ok..please educate me. I want to learn. How do you determine range after 875 yards? How do you determine wind drift at 1100 yards?
Animals get shot/missed/wounded at 5-1500 yards? My point is, the chance of an accurate shot is infinetly better at even 300 yards than 1100. It's all guess work past 500 yards.

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Animals get shot , killed, missed and wounded every year at ranges fro 15 to 1,500 yards, from moose to deer.
it is not BS even though you think it may be after looking at ballisitcs charts.
This topic also gets beat to death at regular intervals on here and every other forum except for maybe Snipershide, Long range shooting and Hunting and other dedicated long range forums.
Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Ok..please educate me. I want to learn. How do you determine range after 875 yards? How do you determine wind drift at 1100 yards?
Animals get shot/missed/wounded at 5-1500 yards? My point is, the chance of an accurate shot is infinetly better at even 300 yards than 1100. It's all guess work past 500 yards.

Actually it's no more guess work at 1,000 yards than it is at 500 with wind.
it takes experience and lots of trigger time to learn how to dope wind, but it can and does get done every day.
As far as range finder inaccuracy goes, there are some very good ones out there, but they are expensive, same as the optics used for spotting such as the Swarovski big eyes, other higher end Leica rangefinder binoculars that are accurate at those ranges.
Cat

[troutLakeJohnnie]

Sir, I researched the Swarovski and Leica brands. They require a "reflective surface" after 700 yards. That does NOT include trees. Secondly, holding the ranger still enough to get a reading off a single tree is improbable. Thirdly, Swarovski and Leica admit a full 5% error after 875 yards. This equates to 55 yards at 1100. This variance (110 yards) makes range irrelevant when ballistics/GRAVITY are taken into account in perfect conditions.

No one... NOT ONE writer can tell me how they determine crosswind speeds at 1100 yards. How many eddies, puffs and changes of wind are there between target and "shooter" (not hunter).

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Actually it's no more guess work at 1,000 yards than it is at 500 with wind.
it takes experience and lots of trigger time to learn how to dope wind, but it can and does get done every day.
As far as range finder inaccuracy goes, there are some very good ones out there, but they are expensive, same as the optics used for spotting such as the Swarovski big eyes, other higher end Leica rangefinder binoculars that are accurate at those ranges.
Cat

[diamonddave]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Sir, I researched the Swarovski and Leica brands. They require a "reflective surface" after 700 yards. That does NOT include trees. Secondly, holding the ranger still enough to get a reading off a single tree is improbable. Thirdly, Swarovski and Leica admit a full 5% error after 875 yards. This equates to 55 yards at 1100. This variance (110 yards) makes range irrelevant when ballistics/GRAVITY are taken into account in perfect conditions.

No one... NOT ONE writer can tell me how they determine crosswind speeds at 1100 yards. How many eddies, puffs and changes of wind are there between target and "shooter" (not hunter).

Ok we get it your not a fan, you made your point. Your not going to change anybody's opinion on the subject so why bother?

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Sir, I researched the Swarovski and Leica brands. They require a "reflective surface" after 700 yards. That does NOT include trees. Secondly, holding the ranger still enough to get a reading off a single tree is improbable. Thirdly, Swarovski and Leica admit a full 5% error after 875 yards. This equates to 55 yards at 1100. This variance (110 yards) makes range irrelevant when ballistics/GRAVITY are taken into account in perfect conditions.

No one... NOT ONE writer can tell me how they determine crosswind speeds at 1100 yards. How many eddies, puffs and changes of wind are there between target and "shooter" (not hunter).

GO AWAY! You apparently have never shot over 100 yards and don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Sir, I researched the Swarovski and Leica brands. They require a "reflective surface" after 700 yards. That does NOT include trees. Secondly, holding the ranger still enough to get a reading off a single tree is improbable. Thirdly, Swarovski and Leica admit a full 5% error after 875 yards. This equates to 55 yards at 1100. This variance (110 yards) makes range irrelevant when ballistics/GRAVITY are taken into account in perfect conditions.

No one... NOT ONE writer can tell me how they determine crosswind speeds at 1100 yards. How many eddies, puffs and changes of wind are there between target and "shooter" (not hunter).

The only research that I have done with my Leica Geovids, is actually ranging animals with them. I have ranged deer to over 600 yards, elk to 900 yards, and moose and cattle to over 1000 yards.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Sir, I researched the Swarovski and Leica brands. They require a "reflective surface" after 700 yards. That does NOT include trees. Secondly, holding the ranger still enough to get a reading off a single tree is improbable. Thirdly, Swarovski and Leica admit a full 5% error after 875 yards. This equates to 55 yards at 1100. This variance (110 yards) makes range irrelevant when ballistics/GRAVITY are taken into account in perfect conditions.

No one... NOT ONE writer can tell me how they determine crosswind speeds at 1100 yards. How many eddies, puffs and changes of wind are there between target and "shooter" (not hunter).

You don't range the animal you range rocks snow covered hillsides, etc.
Of course no one can tell you HOW they do it - there is no app for that!!
As I said, you need trigger time at long range and good coaching .

As far as shooting as opposed to hunting goes,
You see a deer on the side of the river and hit he beach .
The deer tops the bank and so do you.
When you get up he's 100 yards or less and you drop him with one shot.

On another occasion you spot a deer you have been watching all summer .
You hit the gravel bar in the middle of the river and jump out, knowing you are halfway across the 400 yard river and the deer is at the top of the steep bank approximately 200 yards you hold the bottom of his lungs and drive a bullet into the spot with the bullet exiting out the top of the off shoulder .

Another time you spot a deer on top of a ridge and get set up with the Barr and Stroud , ranging him at 785 yards .
You dope the wind and put a 190 grain bullet through his lungs killing him.
Someone please tell me the difference here between the shots that were actually hunting and what was not hunting but shooting ?

And exactly where short range stops and long range begins, because everybody's idea is different .
However DO NOT question whether it can be done of nog and I still contend they there are as many animals wounded by slob hunters at short range as long because those people will shoot at any distance!
Cat

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Actually it's no more guess work at 1,000 yards than it is at 500 with wind.

I'm not sure I agree with that. You have twice the distance to guess what the wind is doing. It's not just the wind at target, but the wind at every foot along the way.

As for the ethics of long range hunting, "long range" is a relative term. A 350 yard shot is much more long range for ME than a 1000 yard shot likely is for many here. If you can consistently hit a pie plate at the range you are shooting AND the round you are using has enough down-range energy to reliably kill, then have at it. I think you are missing out on half the fun of "hunting", but that's just a personal opinion.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I'm not sure I agree with that. You have twice the distance to guess what the wind is doing. It's not just the wind at target, but the wind at every foot along the way.

As for the ethics of long range hunting, "long range" is a relative term. A 350 yard shot is much more long range for ME than a 1000 yard shot likely is for many here. If you can consistently hit a pie plate at the range you are shooting AND the round you are using has enough down-range energy to reliably kill, then have at it. I think you are missing out on half the fun of "hunting", but that's just a personal opinion.

What I mean is that of you can't dope wind at 500 you won't be able to at 1,000.
As far as long range hunting goes, I had to actually hunt harder up here to get a shot at what I considered a safe long range shot than I did to find an animal inside 150 for a safe shot.
Shooting at something on a flat cut line is not safe IMO, be it 300 or 1,000.

It's just too much hassle these days for me, I don't have the time to spend on hunting nor the amount of practice it takes to keep up the gilt edged accuracy needed for making what I consider a long range shot.
Cat

[diamonddave]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Ok..please educate me. I want to learn. How do you determine range after 875 yards? How do you determine wind drift at 1100 yards?
Animals get shot/missed/wounded at 5-1500 yards? My point is, the chance of an accurate shot is infinetly better at even 300 yards than 1100. It's all guess work past 500 yards.

You should just do a search on here and read all those post. No sense rehashing it all over again.

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Ok..please educate me. I want to learn. How do you determine range after 875 yards? How do you determine wind drift at 1100 yards?
Animals get shot/missed/wounded at 5-1500 yards? My point is, the chance of an accurate shot is infinetly better at even 300 yards than 1100. It's all guess work past 500 yards.

Not guess work at all. Some long range shooters are fanatical about their rifles, ammunition, optics, laser range finders, ballistics, range tables etc etc etc to the point that they can accurately and regularly hit targets at well beyond 1000 metres.

Way too many hunters judging other hunters for executing perfectly legal hunting practices. If your comfort zone is 300 metres, stay in it. I know what mine is and I stay in that, I don't pass judgement on a guy who can shoot accurately at game at distances that most would never even see the animal, let alone connect with it.

[Hydro1]

Shoot as far as you know you can accurately.
For me that is sub 125 yards.
My buddy, can hit a softball all day at 500 yards. He can easily shoot a watermelon round after round at 700 yards.
I have seen others that have no problem plinking soda bottles at 750+ yards.

[JD848]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Animals get shot , killed, missed and wounded every year at ranges fro 15 to 1,500 yards, from moose to deer.
it is not BS even though you think it may be after looking at ballisitcs charts.
This topic also gets beat to death at regular intervals on here and every other forum except for maybe Snipershide, Long range shooting and Hunting and other dedicated long range forums.
Cat

X3 It's not what your normal hunter does,but some guys have spent tons of cash and top optics and 1000 is not abnormal to them.And CAT is right guys never stop on this topic.

[bessiedog]

I used to slag guys for making that shot.

and I was wrong. I've seen standup guys who have the right equipment, skills and practice take animals that are wayyy past my range.

It can be done, and I get the challenge behind it.

And I retract my criticism of anyone that regularly does it.

Its not my thing cause I don;t have the gear or skills.

but Man...... its something to see.


to each their own for the shot I guess.

[Armorman]

Under perfect conditions with the appropriate gear and a seasoned marksman behind the trigger, 100% doable.

[Talking moose]

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Armorman

Under perfect conditions with the appropriate gear and a seasoned marksman behind the trigger, 100% doable.

True, but then it's shooting, not hunting.

Grizz

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

True, but then it's shooting, not hunting.

Grizz

Why?

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

True, but then it's shooting, not hunting.

Grizz

How is it not hunting??? If I do the exact same prep, scouting, walking, glassing, sitting, calling, etc etc and do everything you do on your hunt except you take a critter at 100 metres and I take one at 800 metres (hypothetically)
how is my experience any different than yours in terms of "who was really hunting"??

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

How is it not hunting??? If I do the exact same prep, scouting, walking, glassing, sitting, calling, etc etc and do everything you do on your hunt except you take a critter at 100 metres and I take one at 800 metres (hypothetically)
how is my experience any different than yours in terms of "who was really hunting"??

One is spot and stalk, where you use your skills to try to sneak up close to it, the other is spot and shoot, no sneakage, the only effort required is spotting it.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

One is spot and stalk, where you use your skills to try to sneak up close to it, the other is spot and shoot, no sneakage, the only effort required is spotting it.

So as a bow hunter where my shots are under 40 yards, I could say anyone who uses a rifle and shoots game over 80 yards away is not hunting. Got it.

[elkhunter11]

There are rangefinders that can range animals to well over 1000 yards. As for estimating wind, that can't be measured all the way from the shooter to the target, and it can change direction and speed several times over 1000 yards. Therefore the only resort is to estimate the wind all the way to the target, and hope for the best. Of course the farther the target is away, the more likely the error in estimating the wind speed and direction. As well, the farther the target, the longer the bullet is in the air, and the greater the risk of the animal moving from the time the trigger is pulled, until the bullet arrives at the target. Yes people do hit animals at over 1000 yards, but the odds of a missed or wounded animal increase, as the shot distance increases. Of course the programs on Wild TV that feature this long range shooting, show the successful shots, and rarely if ever show the misses or wounded animals. Showing that misses and wounded animals do happen with long range shooting, regardless of the equipment being used, does not look good when your program is promoting specialized long range shooting products.

[troutLakeJohnnie]

Really??? What range finders work on a deer past 500 yards? None that I have found. All need a "reflective surface" past 700 yards. What they mean by "reflective" does not mean a deer. A tree is marginally POSSIBLE if you you can hold the device steady enough to focus on a single 12-14" tree. Swarovski reports say "No". The best report a .5% error which translates into 110 yards + or -. Crosswind of a mere 10 mph shows a 12' change of impact. This is IF the wind is constant all the way to target and exactly 90 degrees to shooter/animal.
After 500 yards it is really guess work and to my mind, unethical.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

There are rangefinders that can range animals to well over 1000 yards. As for estimating wind, that can't be measured all the way from the shooter to the target, and it can change direction and speed several times over 1000 yards. Therefore the only resort is to estimate the wind all the way to the target, and hope for the best. Of course the farther the target is away, the more likely the error in estimating the wind speed and direction. As well, the farther the target, the longer the bullet is in the air, and the greater the risk of the animal moving from the time the trigger is pulled, until the bullet arrives at the target. Yes people do hit animals at over 1000 yards, but the odds of a missed or wounded animal increase, as the shot distance increases. Of course the programs on Wild TV that feature this long range shooting, show the successful shots, and rarely if ever show the misses or wounded animals. Showing that misses and wounded animals do happen with long range shooting, regardless of the equipment being used, does not look good when your program is promoting specialized long range shooting products.

[grinr]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Really??? What range finders work on a deer past 500 yards? None that I have found. All need a "reflective surface" past 700 yards. What they mean by "reflective" does not mean a deer. A tree is marginally POSSIBLE if you you can hold the device steady enough to focus on a single 12-14" tree. Swarovski reports say "No". The best report a .5% error which translates into 110 yards + or -. Crosswind of a mere 10 mph shows a 12' change of impact. This is IF the wind is constant all the way to target and exactly 90 degrees to shooter/animal.
After 500 yards it is really guess work and to my mind, unethical.

Hmmmmm...I wonder how military marksmen range and hit targets at 2000m and beyond......ummmmmm....BETTER THAN AVERAGE OPTICS!!!
Duhhhh....ya think?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Really??? What range finders work on a deer past 500 yards? None that I have found. All need a "reflective surface" past 700 yards. What they mean by "reflective" does not mean a deer. A tree is marginally POSSIBLE if you you can hold the device steady enough to focus on a single 12-14" tree. Swarovski reports say "No". The best report a .5% error which translates into 110 yards + or -. Crosswind of a mere 10 mph shows a 12' change of impact. This is IF the wind is constant all the way to target and exactly 90 degrees to shooter/animal.
After 500 yards it is really guess work and to my mind, unethical.

Obviously, you didn't read my following post.

The only research that I have done with my Leica Geovids, is actually ranging animals with them. I have ranged deer to over 600 yards, elk to 900 yards, and moose and cattle to over 1000 yards.

I won't debate wind drift with you, because some of your points concerning wind drift are actually valid. However, you obviously don't know nearly as much as you think you do about range finders. Perhaps you should spend more time actually using the Leica and Swarovski range finders, and less time reading about them. Your math is also badly flawed, as a .5% error at 1100 yards is only +/- 5.5 yards.

[Speckle55]

troutlakejohnie this is for you

then watch the others on the side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48Eok5hQZo

David