Efficient BG Cartridge to do it all.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by 270person

35 Whelen. Nobody said anything about hunting them, just best recommends to kill one, hunting or in defense. 308 and 7-08 won't be on that list.

For me, packing a 35 Whelen is no more difficult than carrying any other 8.5 lb rifle.
Plus it's a rather easy to load for and a reasonably pleasant rifle to shoot.

[Buckhead]

[QUOTE=chuck;4311052]Elmer Keith and Jim Carmichel were not writers of the same day. But if they were, Carmichel would have mopped the floor with Keith. O’Connor did. Handily.

Elmer was part of the original design team in 1935 for the Winchester Model 70. I don't think anyone is going to mop the floor against that kind of experience.

[Pathfinder76]

Elmer said he was a lot of things.

[Dean2]

My dad can kick you dad's azz. Can not, can too, can not, can too.

[Big Lou]

Originally Posted by Dean2

My dad can kick you dad's azz. Can not, can too, can not, can too.

Lmfao!

[Duramaximos]

3006

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

[270person]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

3006

The sensitive mans Whelen.

[270person]

Originally Posted by Salavee

For me, packing a 35 Whelen is no more difficult than carrying any other 8.5 lb rifle.
Plus it's a rather easy to load for and a reasonably pleasant rifle to shoot.

No argument here. I'll take mine, or one of my 7's, or my 270wsm long before what seems to be one mans fantasy cartridge.

Why? Because, I shoot them. And because I shoot them they must be the best.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 270person

No argument here. I'll take mine, or one of my 7's, or my 270wsm long before what seems to be one mans fantasy cartridge.

Why? Because, I shoot them. And because I shoot them they must be the best.

I’m not short on cartridges I’ve used to kill big game. You know what? 100% of the time you could lie about the cartridge used to an eye witness. 100% of the time they would believe you.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

I’m not short on cartridges I’ve used to kill big game. You know what? 100% of the time you could lie about the cartridge used to an eye witness. 100% of the time they would believe you.

Don't bet on that

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Don't bet on that

I would.

[Homesteader]

Fun thread, gives us something to talk about lol

I can honestly say I’ve never killed a big game animal with a 308, or a 7-08, same goes for the 6.5’s, but I have all of them and often carry them when working and sometimes hunting. I’ve had a lot of bang flops with 300 Win, 308 Norma, 30-06, and 270. I just don’t think of them as particularly efficient, but of those definitely the 06 is the most efficient. I also have to side with Chuck on the 06 vs the 338-06 only because of penetrating capabilities. A 200g partition is a freight train, probably won’t hit quite as hard up close but it is still extremely capable. I still pick 308 win.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

I would.

//

For some reason, I can believe that remark.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

//

For some reason, I can believe that remark.

So you think you could watch someone shoot an animal and be able to determine what cartridge he used?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

So you think you could watch someone shoot an animal and be able to determine what cartridge he used?

No more than I would quote a particular Gunwriter

[Tronneroi]

This thread makes me want a 338-06...

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Not sure I quite follow this one. 338-06 will launch a 160 at 3150 fps, a 200 grain at almost 2900 fps and a 250 grain bullet at 2600 fps with 58 grains of powder. A 220 grain out of the 30-06 will be doing max 2500 fps, also using 59 grains oof powder, so 30 grains lighter and 100 fps slower. Don't really see much hamstringing in a 338-06, especially with the heavier bullets.

At what pressure or barrel length Dean? The data says otherwise if they’re both running 24” tubes.

338-06













I’ll put the 220 grain 30-06 load there for comparison to the 225 from the 338-06. Seems it’s pretty close.

[Roamer]

Ah yes, it always comes down the the ever present, around every corner charging grizzly. Personally, I think the only way you’ll be guaranteed to stop one in its tracks is a central nervous system shot. Heart shot, might stop it dead, or it might have enough adrenaline going to stop you before it expires. So, central nervous system being the best way, I wouldn’t say a 308 / 7-08 aren’t enough cartridge to stop a charging grizz, shot placement pending. Disclaimer: I have never shot a charging grizzly. I do hunt / hike/ roam where they are, where there are maulings semi regularity, and I don’t carry a big magnum.

Can a 308 / 7-08 take a bull moose at 350 yards, yes, with the correct bullet and shot placement. Blood loss and or lack of oxygen in the blood end lives, not energy.

[Coiloil37]

Just cause the OP said he runs a 210 partition that’s worth a comparison.

[Roamer]

Also, 30-06 vs 338-06, both seem good. One can be bought off the shelf of almost anywhere that carries ammunition, one cannot. That would help make the decision for me, despite the fact that I also handload.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

At what pressure or barrel length Dean? The data says otherwise if they’re both running 24” tubes.

338-06

I used Hodgdon published load data for the numbers I was quoting.


http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

[KegRiver]

Many years ago I got in a debate about 6.5mm cartridges.

Just the ones marked 6.5.

At the time there were three that I know of that were well known.

The 6.5x55 Swede
The 6.5x54 MS
and the 6.5x52 carcano.

What I wasn't aware of was the 6.5x50 Arisaka.

I lost that debate but it taught me a valuable lesson.

What I think I know may not be correct. There are so many variables, so many options that very very few people know everything there is to know about rifles, bullets or shooting.

While the 30-06 and the 338-06 may look comparable on paper they may not be in the field.

For one thing, one can't compare maximum loads for one cartridge against maximum loads in a similar cartridge because each rifle tolerates different maximums. And because few loads preform well accuracy wise,at maximum velocities and therefor are seldom used by knowledgeable hunters.

Any time you push a larger diameter bullet from the same cartridge downrange preference for one or more perimeters will suffer.

I don't know if they are comparable. I only know there is much more to be considered then just ballistic charts.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I used Hodgdon published load data for the numbers I was quoting.


http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Gotcha. Closer to what you posted, as long as your willing to round up.











And it should be faster. Same case, larger bore and π r2 x pressure makes the magic doesn’t it.
The 338-06 gets the luxury of 65,000 psi and the old war horse is held back to 60k for no good reason.
Still doesn’t take the lead one would expect and gives up a lot of flexibility, BC and SD. for an all rounder.

[waldedw]

This is a much better thread than the political one or the covid one

[Dean2]

Coiloil 37
Sectional Density is the ratio of weight to diameter squared, or more accurately mass to cross section, so any time you increase calibre in the same weight of bullet the SD will obviously decrease. So a 180 grain 30 cal has an SD of .271, and the same in 338 has an SD of .225, but at 160 grains a 7 mm has an SD of .283, Does this mean we should all be using 7 mms of some sort and the 30 cal are handicapped.

The issue is, do you have enough SD to get the penetration you need. In my view as long as you have a heavy enough bullet in the calibre you are using for moose and elk to give you an SD of .250, which you hit at 200 grains in the 338, to .270 or better and a bullet that holds together you are fine. In the case of the 338 the 225 has an SD of .281, the 250 grain Bullet has an SD of .313. Any SD over .3 is consider a top choice for game needing deep penetration. Like any other cartridge, half the battle is picking the right bullet for the job. As far as B.C., to 350 yards I have never paid much attention to that factor, outside of not recommending RN bullets.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

In my mind to meet the parameters of the original post you would have to take the energy at 350 yards and divide that by the average powder charge to determine the efficiency of payload delivery. Here are the results of some common cartridges and bullet weights.

30-06, 180 gr, - 30.3 ft/lbs per grain of powder
300 WM, 200 gr, - 32.0 ft/lbs per grain of powder
338-06, 210 gr, - 34.0 ft/lbs per grain of powder
338 WM, 210 gr, - 29.6 ft/lbs per grain of powder
35 Whelen, 225 grain - 36.8 ft/lbs per grain of powder
375 H&H, 260 grain - 31.8 ft/lbs per grain of powder

It appears that the 338-06 and 35 Whelen are quite efficient at delivering a heavy payload with the least amount of powder.

Originally Posted by Dean2

460 Weatherby Mag, 116 grains of powder, 500 grain bullet. K at muzzle 7500 Foot Pounds, K at 350 5500 so 64.7 at the muzzle and 47.4 Foot Pounds per grain at 350. In fact I have more K at 350 than any of you left the muzzle with. I win for the most efficient, using this method. I want the gold star.
And no I am not afraid of any Grimsly bears with this round, or locomotives, space aliens or large burrowing attack worms from the movie Tremors.

That is how I would define powder efficiency as well. 460 wby for the win

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Tronneroi

This thread makes me want a 338-06...

my next build....

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Roamer

Ah yes, it always comes down the the ever present, around every corner charging grizzly.

LOL, reminds me of the time a couple aquaintances went grizzly hunting on the BC coast. Guy with the tag carried a 375 H&H, his buddy carried a 30-30 lever and a tag for blacktails. They unknowingly walked up on a bear, didn't see it until was running straight at them, guy with the 375 emptied his gun and never hit the bear, buddy with the 30-30 whacked it dead as a doornail with one shot in the head, cool as a cucumber.

[RobTurbo]

The answer to the OP question and all other "what caliber" questions is now and forver shall be 6.8 Western

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

LOL, reminds me of the time a couple aquaintances went grizzly hunting on the BC coast. Guy with the tag carried a 375 H&H, his buddy carried a 30-30 lever and a tag for blacktails. They unknowingly walked up on a bear, didn't see it until was running straight at them, guy with the 375 emptied his gun and never hit the bear, buddy with the 30-30 whacked it dead as a doornail with one shot in the head, cool as a cucumber.

So true.


There is a great though very long joke about exactly that. Short form, hunter takes a shot at a bear, goes up to check it out, bear is still alive and unhurt, says to hunter, two choices, I kill or you or you let me have my way with you. Hunter picks second choice, leaves walking pretty funny. Goes to store for bigger gun. Process repeats itself through the 460 Weatherby and finally a bazooka. After Bazooka failure, bear says to the hunter, your not really out here for the hunting, are you.