6.5 swede question

[Albertaguide]

My father gave me a model '96 swede many many years ago. Before I owned a chronograph I worked up a load for accuracy, and slowly increased the powder charge until it showed some pressure signs, such as cratered primers difficult bolt lift and or shiny spots on the case head. Once one of more of these showed up I backed off to the last most accurate charge. About 10 years ago I finally pick up a chronograph but never really got around to testing the swede. A few weeks ago I ran 10 rds thru it and discovered to my astonishment it was shooting 140gr spbt at 3008 fps average with a SD of 10 fps. All the literature I've read and research on line indicates the 6.5x55 shouldn't be able to handle this velocity without extreme pressures and probable damage to the firearm and or myself. My question is do I continue with this load or abandon it as a ticking time bomb?

[catnthehat]

I never push the old actions like the '96's or the mannlichers that fast even if I don't see pressure signs because once you see them they are already way over the ceiling.
Personally I would run the 140's about 2,500-2,600 FPS in '96
Cat

[Pioneer2]

What loads are you using specifically? The Swedish steel actions are strong but lack the safety features of the 98 action that replaced it Worldwide.If they let go somebody usually gets hurt or worse. The 96 mauser was designed for 45000-47000 PSI You should have a 29.1" barrel on your 96 If you post the load you are using I have 96 data from the Hornady book that should be safer.Before someone pipes up about the modern sporters Kimber made ....they quit that practice after several incidents/blowups. Beautiful rifles and scary accurate...if the 300 yard zero bothers you install a taller front sight.......Harold

[elkhunter11]

By the time you see brass extrusion and difficult bolt lift, you are way beyond acceptable pressures, so if you only back off until these pressure signs disappear, you are still beyond acceptable pressures. I run modern actions at around 2750 to 2800fps, with 140gr bullets, and 3000fps is way beyond what I would be pushing with an older action.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

What loads are you using specifically? The Swedish steel actions are strong but lack the safety features of the 98 action that replaced it Worldwide.If they let go somebody usually gets hurt or worse. The 96 mauser was designed for 45000-47000 PSI

Pressure signs on brass don't normally start to show until about 65,000+ PSI. That's ok in a modern action designed for that pressure. As Harold says these old actions are made for a pressure threshold of about 45,000 or so. That's why pressure and velocity of factory loads for this cartridge are so low is because people are still using these old guns and the factory has to cover their ass. In your rifle you are probably at least 20,000 PSI over pressure. When shooting those old guns with soft receivers you can not use typical pressure signs on brass as an indicator of too much pressure. Stick with book loads designed for those old guns or use a chronograph when working up a load and do not exceed velocity of factory loads. Apparently there is factory loads in this cartridge that are loaded to modern pressures but they come with a warning/disclaimer on the box to only use it in modern guns designed to run at modern pressures. Also some reloading books may have data for loading for the old guns and also separate data for modern guns, be aware that you pick the right data for your gun.

[Smokinyotes]

Op if you are running at 3008 out of a 6.5x55 you are way way over safe and normal pressures. I would be pulling the bullets if it were mine.

[Sashi]

I am presently having a similar problem with my m96. I will be turfing my old brass, as the bases are already expanded. Starting with new brass I'll be loading from minimum and increasing 1gr at a time till I see high pressure signs, and recording the velocities. This info will be sent to one of the powder manufactures technicians (who I have been in contact with). He is also concerned as I was blowing primers a couple of grains below their published maximums.

[petew]

Considering the bullet / powder makers have spent millions of dollars testing and measuring safe loads, I never exceed the listed loads in the books , and if pressure signs appear before the max load is reached I back off until it is gone.

The #1 rule I was taught many years ago is never try to be smarter than the books.

So far I haven't had a single issue with a load being adequate to kill or safe for the gun and the shooter, me.

I don't want to be that guy with a rubber mallet, or 2x4 beating his bolt open or looking for a drive to the hospital.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Albertaguide

My father gave me a model '96 swede many many years ago. Before I owned a chronograph I worked up a load for accuracy, and slowly increased the powder charge until it showed some pressure signs, such as cratered primers difficult bolt lift and or shiny spots on the case head. Once one of more of these showed up I backed off to the last most accurate charge. About 10 years ago I finally pick up a chronograph but never really got around to testing the swede. A few weeks ago I ran 10 rds thru it and discovered to my astonishment it was shooting 140gr spbt at 3008 fps average with a SD of 10 fps. All the literature I've read and research on line indicates the 6.5x55 shouldn't be able to handle this velocity without extreme pressures and probable damage to the firearm and or myself. My question is do I continue with this load or abandon it as a ticking time bomb?

With a variety of powders, Quickload thinks you must be around 80,000 psi
to reach that velocity with a 140 gr bullet... tick, tick..

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by petew

Considering the bullet / powder makers have spent millions of dollars testing and measuring safe loads, I never exceed the listed loads in the books , and if pressure signs appear before the max load is reached I back off until it is gone.

The #1 rule I was taught many years ago is never try to be smarter than the books.

So far I haven't had a single issue with a load being adequate to kill or safe for the gun and the shooter, me.

I don't want to be that guy with a rubber mallet, or 2x4 beating his bolt open or looking for a drive to the hospital.

Except that the people publishing the manuals are not using your rifle, your cases, and your lot of powder, which is why there are warnings about working up loads while watching for pressure signs. If these variances can result in you seeing pressure signs at less than maximum published loads, then your rifle and components are obviously producing more pressure than the rifle and components the manual publishers used. Therefore, it is only logical that your rifle and components could also produce less pressure than the rifle and components that the publishers of the manual used. Therefore, the published maximum load may not be the maximum safe load for your rifle, and your components. The bottom line, is to learn how to recognize pressure signs, and to back off the load significantly when you see pressure signs. And if you are using an action designed for a lower pressure than modern actions, then back off the powder charge even more.

[petew]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Except that the people publishing the manuals are not using your rifle, your cases, and your lot of powder, which is why there are warnings about working up loads while watching for pressure signs. If these variances can result in you seeing pressure signs at less than maximum published loads, then your rifle and components are obviously producing more pressure than the rifle and components the manual publishers used. Therefore, it is only logical that your rifle and components could also produce less pressure than the rifle and components that the publishers of the manual used. Therefore, the published maximum load may not be the maximum safe load for your rifle, and your components.

Or you may be far exceeding what is safe, and not know it and a catastrophic fail is about to happen.

I can not understand the logic, need and desire to push the envelope. If you want that bullet going faster buy a bigger caliber that easily meets your needs safely . When you want more from your 308, buy an 06, or win mag.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by petew

[/B]

Or you may be far exceeding what is safe, and not know it and a catastrophic fail is about to happen.

I can not understand the logic, need and desire to push the envelope. If you want that bullet going faster buy a bigger caliber that easily meets your needs safely . When you want more from your 308, buy an 06, or win mag.

So if the manual is listing 2800fps as their maximum load velocity, and your rifle and components are only producing 2600fps, with the same powder charge, and using the same barrel length, what do you assume is causing the difference in velocity? My own reaction would be to check several other reputable sources, and if they are all listing 2800fps or more with the same components and barrel length, and the rifling is not corroded or abnormally rough as to cause abnormally high pressure, the logical assumption is that my rifle and components are simply producing less pressure than the rifle and components listed in the manual. As such, I would likely work up the load to produce closer to the velocity listed in the manual, while watching for pressure signs. I have actually done this many times over the years without incident. I also pay attention when priming cases, to see if they are still tight or if the primers go in with less resistance, and if the primer pockets are still tight after five firings, I consider that my final verification of the load.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Albertaguide

My father gave me a model '96 swede many many years ago. Before I owned a chronograph I worked up a load for accuracy, and slowly increased the powder charge until it showed some pressure signs, such as cratered primers difficult bolt lift and or shiny spots on the case head. Once one of more of these showed up I backed off to the last most accurate charge. About 10 years ago I finally pick up a chronograph but never really got around to testing the swede. A few weeks ago I ran 10 rds thru it and discovered to my astonishment it was shooting 140gr spbt at 3008 fps average with a SD of 10 fps. All the literature I've read and research on line indicates the 6.5x55 shouldn't be able to handle this velocity without extreme pressures and probable damage to the firearm and or myself. My question is do I continue with this load or abandon it as a ticking time bomb?

Abandon it, because as you've said, it IS a ticking bomb. There's no way on God's green earth that a 6.5 Swede in a '96 should reach that kind of velocity. You are so over pressure for that gun that you should go out a buy a lottery ticket after firing 10 rounds at those pressure and be able to post about it.

[Sashi]

The differance in reloading data for the M96 6.5x55 swede from different sources is scary.. Hodgdon and Nosler indicate the maximum load for the 140gr bullets as 47 grains of H4831; That's 3 grains above Hornady's max and a whopping 8 grains above Speer's max. I imagine that amounts to a significant pressure increase.

[Albertaguide]

According to an old loading/dope book of mine (I was a meticulous noted keeper regarding shooting and load development) dated mid 90's the load was 48grs of ammomart 47SL, I bought 10lbs of this powder, there was nothing regarding where i got the load data, but there are 6 pages of development data starting at 40grs. I've become a much more competent and conservative reloader since. I have a 8 rounds of this load left. Think I'll just pulled the bullet and dump the powder.

[catnthehat]

I will have to check but IIRC 47SL was repackaged H414
I have one of Tom's old flyers downstairs.
Cat

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Each firearm is an individual. What is safe in my gun may not be safe in yours and vice versa, when it comes to developing Handloads. For me - if there were no pressure signs and I enjoyed the round I would go ahead and use it! No worries. The specs and data are a starting point for load development. Most figure it's best to start below the data ever so slightly (not much, as this may well present dangers of its own) and work up from there. So no signs of over-pressure equals no worries.

That said, I would not ask after the safety of my handloads online. So, your question leads me (others too, by the foregoing posts I've read here) to believe that you feel the load to be unsafe. If you do, there's your answer. Especially so if you feel you may have over looked any such signs.

All the best, safe and happy shootin!

[Pioneer2]

Try some RE#22 or IMR 4350 with the 140gr bullet.in a Swedish 96 begin @ 42gr/IMR 4350......2400fps........MAX 44gr.......2600fps keep in mind you have a 29.1" pipe so could be a little faster.Seat bullets out to touch rifling ,then bump back slightly so they don't,check to see if the will still fit the magazine OAL and you are in business .The data I have for RE#22 is for modern sporters so best send Alliant a note and see what they say for a 96 mauser load wise...Harold

[elkdump]

ALL original 96 Gustaff mausers were proof tested at the factory before leaving,

The factory over pressure , proof test load produced about 55 thou ,

I have had several 96's and any of these with a good bore were remarkable rifles,

My favorite load my present 96 Gustaff , is 48.5 gr Reloader 22 , Magnum primer , behind a 140 gr Berger VLD

[6.5swedeforelk]

Originally Posted by Albertaguide

... dated mid 90's the load was 48grs of ammomart 47SL, I bought 10lbs of this powder, there was nothing regarding where i got the load data...

Albertaguide, Ammomart loads were printed on their flyer- this ones from 1975.

I purchased about 170lbs at app. three bucks per.
Remainder of 3031 equivilant died five years ago, ball powder still good.

[6.5swedeforelk]

Originally Posted by Sashi

The differance in reloading data for the M96 6.5x55 swede from different sources is scary.. Hodgdon and Nosler indicate the maximum load for the 140gr bullets as 47 grains of H4831; That's 3 grains above Hornady's max and a whopping 8 grains above Speer's max. I imagine that amounts to a significant pressure increase...

Folks must have lived on the edge in my time.

My Speer Reloading manual lists the following load:
140gr Speer 51gr 4831 2631fps 18" barrel

Their test rifle was a Swedish mauser.

I've found that 47gr 4831 is max for my rifle
and hunting loads are just fine at 46gr.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 6.5swedeforelk

Albertaguide, Ammomart loads were printed on their flyer- this ones from 1975.

I purchased about 170lbs at app. three bucks per.
Remainder of 3031 equivilant died five years ago, ball powder still good.

47SL was a slow lot of H414 with a burn rate closer to H450 and H48311
I phoned Andrew directly yesterday because couldn't find my AMMOMART flyer with the specs, and he had it right off the top of his head!
Tom and Andrew both know their stuff , being trained by Old Tom Higginson.
Cat

[Albertaguide]

Originally Posted by "No Choke"Lord Walsingham

Each firearm is an individual. What is safe in my gun may not be safe in yours and vice versa, when it comes to developing Handloads. For me - if there were no pressure signs and I enjoyed the round I would go ahead and use it! No worries. The specs and data are a starting point for load development. Most figure it's best to start below the data ever so slightly (not much, as this may well present dangers of its own) and work up from there. So no signs of over-pressure equals no worries.

That said, I would not ask after the safety of my handloads online. So, your question leads me (others too, by the foregoing posts I've read here) to believe that you feel the load to be unsafe. If you do, there's your answer. Especially so if you feel you may have over looked any such signs.

All the best, safe and happy shootin!

Thanks for that. My original question was based on the fact I developed the load in my early 20's, at that time I was in pursuit of speed, safety be damned. I'm assuming I had gotten lucky not damaging a rifle or myself, as I've gotten older and maybe more respectful of danger, accuracy and sustainability are more important. This particular load is extremely accurate fairly mild in recoil, and of course fast thus reducing elevation and windage calculation, pretty much exactly what all handloaders are looking for. I was looking for opinions based on other re loaders experience, which I've gotten in spades. Since my supply of this particular powder is nearly exhausted and I have only a few rounds left its a moot point. Thanks for everyone's opinions and suggestions.

[qwert]

I suggest verifying your chronograph results using another instrument.

The best would be using a Magnetospeed, Labradar or sonic in conjunction with your chronograph,
but optical chronographs can also be used in tandem (series) configuration.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[Sashi]

Originally Posted by 6.5swedeforelk

Folks must have lived on the edge in my time.

My Speer Reloading manual lists the following load:
140gr Speer 51gr 4831 2631fps 18" barrel

Their test rifle was a Swedish mauser.

I've found that 47gr 4831 is max for my rifle
and hunting loads are just fine at 46gr.

Why is Speer Sh**ing their pants now? that's almost a 25% decrease.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Sashi

Why is Speer Sh**ing their pants now? that's almost a 25% decrease.

Notice the Italics at the top of the page says (military actions). There is probably an adjacent section with powder charges for stronger modern actions.

[Sashi]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Notice the Italics at the top of the page says (military actions). There is probably an adjacent section with powder charges for stronger modern actions.

If you will notice the thread is about a 96 Swedish Mauser, not a stronger commercial action.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Sashi

If you will notice the thread is about a 96 Swedish Mauser, not a stronger commercial action.

Yes Sir, I figured that out when I read the first post and commented about it in post #6

You asked "Why is Speer ****ting their pants now? Those loads shown are at least 25% lower than before" My reply was basically because those loads illustrated in the pic are for old military mausers (which is what we're talking about) that can't handle loads designed for modern actions. Apparently they now figure out their older data produces pressures too high for them. I noted most manuals have separate data with reduced loads for old guns that can't take modern pressure and also have data on adjacent pages for modern guns. I don't have a newer Speer manual but assume it also has separate loading data to be used only for modern guns. I was hoping people take note to make the distinction and identify the proper data to use for the type of firearm they are loading for.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Sashi]

Originally Posted by Sashi

I am presently having a similar problem with my m96. I will be turfing my old brass, as the bases are already expanded. Starting with new brass I'll be loading from minimum and increasing 1gr at a time till I see high pressure signs, and recording the velocities. This info will be sent to one of the powder manufactures technicians (who I have been in contact with). He is also concerned as I was blowing primers a couple of grains below their published maximums.

I may have resolved my problem, The actual velocities verses the expected velocities were normal, But the soot covering the cases was from ruptured primers due to a nick in the firing pin. Hopefully the cause of the base expansions was caused by the hot gases flowing backwards and heating the base. This along with the pressures causing the bases to expand. My new firing pin should be in soon, and I will be able prove my assumptions.

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by Sashi

I may have resolved my problem, The actual velocities verses the expected velocities were normal, But the soot covering the cases was from ruptured primers due to a nick in the firing pin. Hopefully the cause of the base expansions was caused by the hot gases flowing backwards and heating the base. This along with the pressures causing the bases to expand. My new firing pin should be in soon, and I will be able prove my assumptions.

The primers are not even showing signs of flattening, a proven method of higher pressure signs,,,

The bevel/ rounded corners of your fired cases are identical to your un fired case